I read this and wondering if he was a psychopath? And if he was would he have gotten worse had he lived?

https://www.psypost.org/2022/05/new-study-suggests-that-psychopathic-individuals-tend-to-become-even-worse-after-age-50-63177

Just a thought.

I think Joseph "dodged the bullet" several times.

There were several assassination attempts and with his womanizer ways someone may well have finished him off.

Plus his legal woes were ever present. Jail would most likely have been in his future.

Say the mob didn't kill him that day in Carthage, he could have still been taken to court, found guilty and sentenced to jail for burning the press.

Theology wise, he was already out of control. At Kirkland he was said to have been down to a handful of followers.

Looking at Rigdon's church and others that fizzled out in a generation he may well have ended up with a few hundred followers in a secluded area back east.

Lastly he may well have succumbed to disease or accident.

I think he was definitely on his was out through disgrace or death in a few years.

I think he was on his way out West.

Polygamy certainly wasn't popular, in Quinn work origins of power Joseph was reported to have gone to the stake pres William marks seeking some advice as to how to get out of the disaster that was happening with multiple wives, had he lived a manifesto would likely have occurred pretty quickly instead of 1890. Mormondon would have looked more like a conservative Baptist church I think?

If Joseph were a psychopath and hyper sexual he would have gotten worse with age.

The link to the article mentions how they get more manipulative.

I know you didn't read it. Just wanted to point that out.

I was just wondering about this this morning. How the church would have went if Js lived.

The church would have fizzled out.

JS was a charismatic visionary who was losing whatever balance he’d ever had. King Follett showed a paranoia and instability that would have torn the church apart.

It was BY who created durable Mormonism. He was organizationally skilled and managed to isolate the church in Utah, where his control of resources, discipline, and indoctrination transformed the church into a durable entity. Without him, the mainstream church would have withered away like most of the other Mormonisms did.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2022 05:28PM by Lot's Wife.

I think I disagree. Their movement had enough steam to fill Utah. I think Joe would have taken the show west and succeed.

Brigham was more practical than Joseph Smith. Brigham would have never paraded around in a general’s uniform. Emma even said she hated it. Brigham was less of a buffoon. I don’t think Joseph could have grew the church in Utah like Brigham did.

Maybe not but practicality wasnt the driving energy. Maybe it could have gotten bigger with Joe infusing more into it.

+1

JS was probably very charismatic, but he used his "skills" primarily to feed his lust and greed. Truth be told, he was probably even surprised himself how long and far this con ran.

Clinging to his old talismans and newer ones (in the form of freemasonry) gives me the impression that he always had one eye on an escape route. In fact, he desperately tried to rely on freemasonry while trying to escape the mob/jail in Carthage.

Gordon B. Stinky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Truth be told, he was probably even surprised
> himself how long and far this con ran.

He said as much several times towards the end.


---------------------
> Clinging to his old talismans and newer ones (in
> the form of freemasonry) gives me the impression
> that he always had one eye on an escape route.

I don't think he was intentionally looking for an escape route, at least not until the very end. My view--which I believe is compatible with your "lust and greed" interpretation--is that he was constantly grabbing new ideas to keep his followers enthused: the church started as a conventional version of Christianity, then absorbed Jewish occult thinking, Swedenborg's theosophy and three degrees of glory, the polygamy that informed cults all around him in frontier New England, and then Free Masonry. He thus enthralled his followers even as his personal behavior increasingly alienated the more balanced and moral of his lieutenants.

By the end he was not just a fugitive from the law, he was a fugitive from Emma, his old friends, and even from the church. He was a man in crisis.


-----------------------
> In fact, he desperately tried to rely on freemasonry
> while trying to escape the mob/jail in Carthage.

Yes, in his last hours JS was so desperate that he would take help from anywhere he could get it. But in terms of his legacy, he died at about the right time. There's no way he could have saved the church from the demons he had unleashed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2022 07:42PM by Lot's Wife.

Joseph had actually transfered leadership of the church to Hyrum, declaring Hyrum co president.

Joseph said he needed to devote himself to translating scripture.

Well, he'd designated several different people his successor--itself an indication of his prioritization of caprice over organization. Likewise, when using Hyrum and others as surrogates during his periods on the run he still sent orders by mail and messenger.

In other words, I don't see any evidence that he was ready to hand over the reins. People like him aren't capable of stepping back: they need adulation and control.

I think that’s what made him go back after he crossed the Mississippi to escape trial. He had some time to think and he realized he would lose everything. He would be viewed as a coward and he would just be a lone man on the run. His ego sent him back. He had wiggled out of trouble before and it was just too much power to run away from.

Where could he go? What would he be if he weren't with the Saints?

Losing one's identity, everything one's achieved in life, is often more frightening than physical peril. Could a man of such fragile ego bear becoming a nobody?

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think he was intentionally looking for an
> escape route, at least not until the very end. My
> view--which I believe is compatible with your
> "lust and greed" interpretation--is that he was
> constantly grabbing new ideas to keep his
> followers enthused: the church started as a
> conventional version of Christianity, then
> absorbed Jewish occult thinking, Swedenborg's
> theosophy and three degrees of glory, the polygamy
> that informed cults all around him in frontier New
> England, and then Free Masonry. He thus
> enthralled his followers even as his personal
> behavior increasingly alienated the more balanced
> and moral of his lieutenants.


You're probably right.

"It was BY who created durable Mormonism."

Who's to say BY was not behind the mob? It fits his MO. Samuel Smith died a week later under mysterious circumstances. The coup may have been planned, not just a lucky opportunity for BY.

Would BY have killed Joseph to save the church? I think he was that kind of guy. He ordered other hits. So I think had Joseph slipped away at Carthage he would have only been delayed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2022 04:13AM by bradley.

The Smith’s really disliked Brigham Young. That rift carried on through the RLDS vs LDS rivalry.

He was there to await trial. Maybe he could have escaped- it's certainly possible- but ideally he would have been led to the courtroom in chains. The authorities certainly had him pegged as a flight risk. He would have been convicted and gone to jail. Remember, interfering with a free press is a federal offense.

He crossed the Mississippi with the intent to flee but he changed his mind. Maybe he thought the Nauvoo Legion would protect him or it would intimidate anyone from doing anything. I think Joseph relished if he fled he would lose everything. Cowards were looked down at big time in those days.

He was in that cluster of personalities; IMO obviously narcissistic, possibly psychopathic. But yeah, based on the article and my own unfortunate experiences with these people, they don’t usually mellow with age.

I have wondered how that would have played out too. Given that it’s not surprising that he was shot, and given that he’d have continued with the same behaviours, I imagine things wouldn’t have gone smoothly. I find it hard to imagine what that would’ve looked like.

He was definitely a highly skilled sociopath. Sociopaths play the victim card very well, so of course Joe was going to scream persecution whenever someone interfered with his criminal activity and sexual predation.

I'm not sure he was psychopath, but his sexual mania seemed to point that way. BY was a psychopath. At any rate, these men are no more worth emulating than Charles Manson.

I suspect Brigham might have taken matters into his own hands – either him personally or a close associate. There's no doubt he was capable of it; all he needed was the right window of opportunity.

I agree King Brigham had big plans and some religious freek like JS was not going to stand in his way!!!

The mob in Carthage actually immortalized Joseph Smith by making a martyr of him. Joseph definitely was a narcissist. He was at his worst in Nauvoo parading around in a general’s uniform, being mayor and declaring Marshall law and destroying the free press when he didn’t like what they were printing.

If Joseph Smith would have been allowed a free trial he definitely would have been found guilty of over reach, destruction of property and violation of constitutional rites. He violated the first amendment. Joseph was guilty. I’m sure he would have been stripped of his mayor office and command of the Nauvoo Legion. Possibly the whole legion would have been decommissioned by the state of Illinois.

I doubt the church would have survived if Joseph was allowed to self-destruct due to his own narcism. Fallen prophets do not inspire anyone but martyred prophets who sealed their testimony with their blood do. The church probably would have slowly whithered on the banks of the Mississippi if left to it’s own demise.

This supports the possibility that the mob hit was an inside job. The mob couldn't have done a better job of creating a martyr. All that was left was to fill the power vacuum.

The mob was scared of the Nauvoo Legion. They scattered when someone said the Mormons were coming. Maybe Joseph thought they would protect him. Maybe he was told this but then the other arrangements were made. Joseph was left on his own in Carthage with no protection.

So I wouldn’t discount any conspiracy. A religious zealot like Brigham could justify his actions by saying Joseph had to go, he had fallen due to his personal foibles and he was endangering the church. But the big power struggle that followed Joseph’s death just shows the character of the church leaders and even members like James Strang.

Too bad we can’t examine his brain & body chemistry today.

Reading the article, I think at 50 you become either more enlightened or more endarkened depending on how you've been living so far. Joseph would have descended further into his Hell realm.

More relevant are today's GAs. I think they are a mixed bag. Bednar is a real narcissist. There are some other control freaks. Oaks with his strange obsession with gays.

Who you are is pretty much set by the time you are 22. That’s why the church indoctrinates the youth so hard and makes young men serve missions. They figure by age 22 you will be a Mormon for life.

If you go to a high school reunion you will find people you didn’t like as a teenager are still unlivable when you are 55. Why? People don’t change that much.

I think that if JS had survived the mob, he would’ve been brought to trial anyway, found guilty, and would’ve spent a good part of the rest of his life in jail.

No one would’ve dared to speak in his behalf, including BY.

BY would’ve taken advantage of the situation to take control over the church, and would’ve told everyone to get ready and head west with him and leave JS behind, because there was nothing further they could do for JS unless they wanted to wind up like him.

Joseph would have spent a few years in jail and Hyrum would have ran the church until Joseph got out. Why people had a problem with the church was it was a theocracy. They viewed it as a threat to the US Constitution.

Maybe the church would have stayed in Nauvoo if a non-church leader was mayor and someone else ran the militia. If Hyrum would have just ran the church and stayed out of politics maybe things would have cooled down.

The RLDS avoided problems because it’s prophet didn’t hold political office or gather it’s members to build Zion. It was more of a regular church and it didn’t get ran out. It wasn’t viewed as a threat.

Rubicon, you've said a couple of times now that JS violated the First Amendment and would be in serious trouble for doing so. Your comment here about the people on the US frontier being angered by an anti-constitutional theocracy.

I think you're overstating the point. The constitution in antebellum America was far less important than it would later become. It wasn't until the 14th amendment, over 20 years later, that the Bill of Rights became binding on the states. People in Nauvoo might have been angry about the printing press and other Mormon excesses, but they rarely expressed that anger in constitutional terms.

But the church as led by its Napoleon wannabe leader was seen as a threat.

We’ve been known to joke about Mormons drinking the Kool-Aid.

Could they have ended up as another Jonestown or Heaven’s Gate?

I don't think so. The Smiths were running the show like a family business.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I read this and wondering if he was a psychopath?
> And if he was would he have gotten worse had he
> lived?
>
> https://www.psypost.org/2022/05/new-study-suggests
> -that-psychopathic-individuals-tend-to-become-even
> -worse-after-age-50-63177
>
> Just a thought.

But he didn't survive. Did he? So what iffing actually serves no useful purpose. Does it

What purpose does speculating on aliens engineering humans serve you?