Rusty Bowers (R)AZ House Speaker, is testifying in front of The J6 Select Committee right now that Trump pressured him to call a special session of the Legislature to reject the state electors and replace them with an “Alternate slate of electors”. He got choked up and had to stop speaking as tears welled up in his eyes describing his personal belief that the constitution was sacred and that was an article of his faith.
You are asking me to do something that is counter to my oath, that I took to uphold the constitution.
Bower explained that on numerous calls Trump said, you’re a Republican aren’t you? I’d think you’d be more receptive to hearing my ideas.
Raskin asked Bowers why he thought that ask violated the constitution, he explained that in the absence of strong judicial evidence if anybody told him to violate his oath of office, he would not do that. Which is the point where his eyes welled up with tears. He said,”On more than one occasion that has been brought up, and it is a tenant of my faith, that the constitution is divinely inspired of my most basic foundational beliefs. And so for me to just do that because somebody just asked me to?” Shaking his head no, “It’s foreign to my very being.I will not do it.”

I had no idea Bowers existed before today, but when he said that I knew he had to be Mormon. I looked him up, he is a classically trained artist who got a MFA from BYU. Only a Mormon would get a MFA from BYU, where you never see a nude.

http://cqrcengage.com/neaaz/app/person/40334;jsessionid=1mhsjtr6gwxgytyp1p8zncbam

Thank Goodness there are still (R)s like him in this country who have the courage of their convictions, to stand up to the biggest, most powerful bully on the planet.

I don’t have those convictions. I don’t believe the Constitution is divinely inspired unless God was a white supremacist who really believed Africans only counted as 3/5 human.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2022 02:50PM by schrodingerscat.

It sounds like he buys into the "constitution will hang by a thread and the mormons will save it" story. Maybe he thinks he's one of the mormons fulfilling the prophecy.

Ironically, the constitution is in danger presently, but it's the mormons and their fellow RW travelers who are the culprits. ETBenson imagined commies and pinkos and Black Panthers, but of course that was never more than a dark John Birch fantasy.

Bowers is old. He grew up in a Mormon church that taught principle--do what is right, let the consequences follow--and not in the unprincipled, relativistic, legalistic, equivocal Mormonism of the last few decades.

Such people don't fare well in today's LDS church.

What do you think accounts for the change?

> What do you think accounts
> for the change?


    I'm older than Rusty Trousers, but growing up in the church we likely had the same church resources being showered on us, and it was good.

    So we grew up prodded, to varying degrees, by those old-time mormon experiences, which contributed to the final shapes of who we became.

    Once our 'outcomes' became 'finalized', the fact that the church no longer affords members the "old-time mormon experiences" has no adverse effect on us oldies but goodies.

    Mormons born after maybe about the mid-80s had fewer "old-time mormon experiences" as the years rolled on.  Of course, the Enforcement Tools still exist, but the day-to-day Shared Community aspects of growing up mormon are gone.

    The current leaders of the church all had roughly the same experiences Rusty and I did, and so they don't know what it's like to grow up without the "old-time mormon experiences".

    So they're sitting in their offices, and in their committee meetings, thinking of ways to save money, promote unity and efficiency, and sustain the aura of the nobility of the church so that their "customers" will continue to patronize Mormons 'r Us.  All with no consideration of the differences that exist between how they grew up and what exists now for the young people...

    I don't know if there are any wards with that old-time extended family experience; and even when some effort is made locally, the SLC leadership doesn't see that it's their duty/privilege to serve and support the ward.  Wards are just a population unit, a segment of the customer base that has to be tricked, beguiled, fooled, and hustled into continuing brand loyalty.

    And while their gimmicks and workarounds are still producing leaders (you know, the climbers...) they are losing their community.

     Am I worried that by writing this out I might be helping them figure out how to work towards correcting their problems?  Nope!  Because they don't know how to say, "I'm sorry..."

There was no choice but for the church to go this way as exaltation is based on unconditional love. That was there underneath all even back in my day when there was a lot of good to go along with the holding to the rod. Mormon Heavenly Father does not give gold stars to everyone and no trophies just for participating. Only natural that the competitive factor went up and the Mormon religion became a sport. Training for the CK 24/7 became the gold standard.

But, where else could the church have gone with the likes of Oaks, BKP, ETB, and SWK at the helm? The fish rots from the head down.

Not sure anything changed the more I think about it. When I was at BYU in the seventies they were doing the electroshock. Also someone really high up told me that the reason for the Honor Code was because they got a lot more endowments from wealthy patrons who loved that it wasn't one of those "hippie schools" (where you could actually get a good education).

What the church is now has always been, They just scrapped the bits of good that used to be there.

Mormonism started as a cult, transformed into something approximating a religion for a few decades, and then returned to its roots. Throughout that history the authoritarian an the libertarian elements were always present, but the balance tipped one way and then another.

I think there were two partially related processes at work. The earlier of the two to manifest was the personnel decisions. in the 1960s the McConkies and Joseph Fielding Smiths and Harold Lees gradually gained the ascendancy in part because McKay failed to stop them. This would ultimately bring the troglodytes you mention to the fore.

At something of a temporal lag, the second process was the democratization of information epitomized by the internet. Through the 1960s most church leaders still believed that science and research would vindicate Mormonism. But soon it became obvious that individual reason, free agency, a personal relationship with God was at least as likely to lead people out of the church than to strengthen their testimonies. Obviously that trend accelerated dramatically in the subsequent decades. And that reinforced the authoritarianism, for as science discredited the doctrine and the world came to see Mormonism for what it is, the only way forward was to abandon doctrine and focus on obedience.

So yes, the balance between obedience on the one hand and every-man-a-prophet-unto-himself Mormonism on the other changed. It was not an absolute change, but a relative one that ultimately became quite significant. Today's church isn't your father's.

"most church leaders still believed that science and research would vindicate Mormonism"

Growing up in the 1960s, everyone I knew in the church (including me) was convinced that when the Mayan glyphs could be read, the BOM would at last be fully vindicated and the church would reap the benefits.

It didn't occur to me that McKay & Co. never used their seering and revelating powers to take the lead on that. It should be part of their job description. If they had been able to release translations of the glyphs, and have them independently confirmed by professional archeologists and linguists, that would have proven the truth claims of the church and driven church growth beyond the GAs' wildest dreams.

But who needs actual evidence and sure knowledge when you can have simple childlike faith instead? </s>

McKay and the boys were busy, busy, busy running God's one and only. They didn't have time to bother with science and things.

But they were sure the facts would vindicate Mormonism. They accordingly took over Thomas Ferguson's research in Latin America. But that effort failed spectacularly, roughly contemporaneously with Nibley's transparently fraudulent defense of the Egyptian texts. I think Packer saw where things were going, which is why he inveighed against "so-called intellectuals" and shut down Quinn.

What emerged was an angrier, less tolerant, and more controlling side of Mormonism.

--which is my way of agreeing emphatically.

Like you, when I was young the was no doubt in our minds--and no good reason for there to be doubt--that everything Mayan and Azetec as Nephite and Lamanite. We smugly waited for the rest of the world to figure it out and come begging for baptism.

What amazes me is how well obedience and faith work in favor of Mormonism. My mother is still sure proof of the BoM is right around the corner somewhere in Central America. She knows all the facts, but her faith is greater. My guess is that is her claim to fame---having the greatest faith of all--- and she ain't giving it up.

The White Horse Prophecy, might be fulfilled by RINOs, Cheney, Bowers, Barr, the list goes on, all Trump supporters.

I am a nevermo, but I've been around these parts long enough to realize (based on his choice of words) that he was at least PROBABLY Mormon--to the point where I would have been shocked if he was not.

I thought he did a superlative job, and he deserves kudos.

The entire experience had to have been tough for him.

Yes, the language was Mormon. I did a little sleuthing and confirmed that he has a degree in fine arts from BYU.

I said that in the OP.
Nobody but a Mormon gets an MFA degree from BYU, where you will never see a nude.

Your protean notion of facts is such that "trust but verify" is always a good idea.

Which raises the question: in the CK, can a newly minted ghawd walk around nude in front of all his wives, or can he only be nude in front of one wife at a time?

For a few signs and tokens, specialty shops in the CK will sell you very high SPF sunscreen.

After several millenia in the CK, seeing a few giblets will no longer cause a stir. Been there. Done that. Over and over and over . . .

And it will only take about three weeks until you feel like you've already been there for a millenium.

I had no idea he was Mormon. I did think at times he sounded like he was at church bearing a testimony with that certain type of creepy righteousness voice we all know.

Saying the Constitution was divinely inspired is pure whack job talk, but I have to admire his unwavering Sunday School morality. I was wondering if some people would start to think Mormons in general are more honest, based on Mitt stepping forward (sort of) a while back. Then I remembered Mike Lee who ruins a lot of good impressions of Mormons now.

It turns out Mormons are a mixed bag of people who have principles and those who don't (who knew!). I don't actually think religion influences good behavior as much as it claims. I do think it is true that absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Nor were the Founding Fathers demigods.

They were flawed mortals – just like us.

But you know that.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2022 09:57PM by anybody.

I think of myself as a flawed demigod, with a gold-colored heart, made out of aluminum, completely hollow.

First, let me point out that I strongly agree with your premis. That said, it raises the question: If someone does the right thing, as in this case, should he be criticized at this time for holding the wrong beliefs. Given the grave situation we're dealing with vis-à-vis the 45th U.S. President and his efforts to remain in power despite losing an election, I think not.

+1

+ Another 1

"Thank Goodness there are still (R)s like him in this country who have the courage of their convictions, to stand up to the biggest, most powerful bully on the planet."

That would be Root'n Toot'n Putin - he makes T-RUMP look like an amateur.

I've known Rusty for years and he's as LDS as they come. The Donald and Rudy picked the wrong guy to ask to participate in their circus.

However, it's so very perplexing to me that despite all that Trump did that Rusty finds objectionable and "completely opposite to the teachings of his faith, " he stated yesterday after the hearings that if Trump runs in 2024 he'd vote for him again.

...wtf???

I'll see your wtf and raise you an omg,

Boggles the mind,
But it raises an even bigger question, "Where's the balls?"

Remember when Congress had the balls to subpoena a sitting president for a consensual BJ?

Isn't an attempted coup worth more than a consensual sex act between adults?

So what the hell happened to their balls?

He says he wants equal time, why not give it to him, under oath, in front of a camera? Just like they did Clinton. Both of them.

Yeah it is astonishing.

Hey Rusty: you know personally, for a fact, that Donny would violate the Constitution. Yet you conclude he should be President. How's that math work?

Mormon math

2+2= whatever the Prophet says it is, the thinking's been done!

He just got trashed on MSNBC, for saying he’d still vote for Trump, ‘because of what he did before Covid, which was great’

So courage under fire, but as soon as the fire’s out, hand the gas can and lighter to the arsonist and let him back in the house to finish the job?

https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/rusty-bowers-jan-6-testimony-was-powerful-he-still-backs-n1296499

A fine example of doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.

Of course the U.S.Constitution isn't divinely inspired. This is a popular myth in certain conservative circles. It's nonsense.

YET he did the right thing, despite massive pressure on him to do otherwise. And his belief helped him stand firm. Even though some of his belief is mistaken.

Eric3 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A fine example of doing the right thing for the
> wrong reasons.
>
> Of course the U.S.Constitution isn't divinely
> inspired. This is a popular myth in certain
> conservative circles. It's nonsense.
>
> YET he did the right thing, despite massive
> pressure on him to do otherwise. And his belief
> helped him stand firm. Even though some of his
> belief is mistaken.

I agree, if it wasn't for his faith in the divinity of the constitution, he probably would have caved to the enormous pressure campaign by the biggest bully in the world.

I don't know that my beliefs about the constitution would be enough for me to say, "No, that's unconstitutional," to the president of the United States of America, who has his attorney on the phone with him. I probably would have said, "Let me run that by my AG and I'll have him get in touch with your AG, how's that?"

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Which is the point where his eyes
> welled up with tears. He said,”On more than one
> occasion that has been brought up, and it is a
> tenant of my faith, that the constitution is
> divinely inspired of my most basic foundational
> beliefs. And so for me to just do that because
> somebody just asked me to?” Shaking his head no,
> “It’s foreign to my very being.I will not do
> it.”


Meanwhile, Captain Moroni was storming the Capitol ramparts...