I am a scientist and mathematician.


I use observation, logic, and reason to solve problems and to explain the world.


But they don't.


You can't have a "meeting of the minds," compromise, or negotiation. It's either their way or the highway, or no way at all.


They don't care if people die.


They don't care if a woman dies getting an underground abortion or of sepsis or of uncontrolled hemorrhaging.


They don't care if a trans kid kills themselves growing up or grows up only to be killed by a john because they gave them no other option but sex work to survive after being forced from their homes.


They don't care if a girl is forced to give birth after being abused or raped by her father or other adult male relative -- or shot or killed for that matter.


They claim they are "pro-life" when they would gladly fry, shoot, or hang a convict and couldn't care less if the person was actually innocent or guilty. All that matters is that they are "in charge."


Religious fanatics don't care. They just don't care. They think they will be rewarded in heaven and avoid punishment in hell for what they are doing. It's not about facts. It's not about reason. It's not about evidence. You can't talk sense to them.


Their "sky daddy" is like an absent abusive parent who constantly threatens his children with punishment and beatings no matter if they were or were not out of line, so they beat up the other kids thinking it will spare themselves from abuse.


Reality, compassion, and common sense mean nothing to them. If told to kill in the name of their god, they would do so without thinking.


They just don't care.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2022 05:08PM by anybody.

I fully understand them.

I do too. The story is as old as humanity.

In all times a percentage of people prefer the verities of ideology, sometimes religious ideology and sometimes political ideology. The two thought systems are in fact very similar.

When societies encounter serious problems, the percentage of people seeking simple answers and group cohesion increases. The nature of the fanatical religion varies according to culture and time, but in functional terms whether it's snake-handling fundamentalism or Red Guard communism doesn't matter much.

Anyone or anybody (!) who doesn't understand that characteristic of human behavior is innately or intentionally naive, for snake handlers are as old as the Garden.

I don't wake up in the morning thinking of hating, oppressing, and killing people to please imaginary friends.

I know you understand them. I was speaking loosely to indicate that irrationality is more deeply ingrained in the psyche than rationality.



ETA: Why would the past tense of the word "root" be banned? Anyway, "ingrained" works.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2022 06:34PM by Lot's Wife.

Anything that keeps others down



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2022 07:21PM by kerri.

"root" is a vulgar term for having sex in some countries, including mine. ;-)

Argh, I've been inadequately educated!

Now you've got TMI.

Lot's wife wrote in part:

"I was speaking loosely to indicate that irrationality is more deeply ingrained in the psyche than rationality."

Put another way, a lot of people make their decisions purely on their emotions, and those emotions can be easily swayed one way or another. Religion, like it or not, is really aimed at our emotions which is why a lot of people tend to believe it.

I agree with you. I'm thinking particularly of the church pastors who urged their flock to keep attending even during the first year of the pandemic, when no saving vaccine was available. Their members sometimes cited the "saving vaccine of Jesus's blood," only to die horrible deaths in the ICU. Jesus can't do much to help you if you don't follow the science.

Yes, we want to have kind, decent, honest people, and a moderate level of religion can encourage that. But religion at its worst can also create hateful and judgmental people.

Science is the best hope that we have to solve important problems that we face. If people want, they can give God credit for giving us science and the capacity to understand and work with the physical laws of our world. But to deny science in favor of "God" is indeed a tragedy.

What science or math problem have you solved lately?

Excellent!!!

The only people I have successfully conned out of money/time was an engineer with a masters degree. He really deserved it or I would not have let him be so stupid!!!

So you are a con.

Who would have guessed.

ditto

dagny Wrote:
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> So you are a con.
>
> Who would have guessed.

How? Usually people who are arrogant and think that they know everything get conned or try to con others —— Aldrich Ames or Robert Hanssen are good examples:

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/venona/dece_ames.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hanssen


As for what I do, I worked on the autonomous visual hazard avoidance and navigation system for this so it won't hit rocks when it lands itself on the Moon.

https://firefly.com/blue-ghost/


Lots of finite element analysis, numerical analysis, stuff like that :)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2022 05:19AM by anybody.

...you already had my respect before you revealed this ;-)

What wonderful work!

bradley Wrote:
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> What science or math problem have you solved lately?

Bradley, pretty much every aspect of your day involves products, devices, or procedures that were created by solving science and math problems. Surely you realize this?

Today some guy knocked on my door. He looked around 50. He was decked out in a shirt with a huge bright American flag print. He had a Flag hat too. I thought maybe his wife dressed him in July 4th garb or something.

Anyway, he hands me some little pamphlet, also with a huge American flag (matching his shirt) on it and said he wanted to share some things from the Bible. I recoiled and said no thanks, shutting the door.

Somehow, this guy thinks it is a swell time to knock on doors when women have just had rights taken away based on religious justification. Somehow he thinks Jesus, Bible, flags and guns are something he needs to go share door to door. Why do these folks have to invade everyone's personal space? Why can't they be happy being able to worship as they please without trying to make everyone else follow their darn religion? The evangelical element is what I resent the most. I'm for them being religious but it never stops there. If someone goes door to door, they are fanatics who have had too much Kool-Aid, IMO.

Lol, here in NZ they call them "God-botherers"

Wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.

Indeed. Christofascism has caught on in my state. How do they not see how manipulated they are? Do they really want to toss 200 years of democracy for authoritarian fascism? Apparently so. They think it is in agreement with what they are able to convince themselves God agrees with and directs. Funny how God lets them know just who to keep down and hate.

Dagny wrote in part:

"Funny how God lets them know just who to keep down and hate."

All of this crap is written in the Bible. You don't like gays? Just read the rules of Judaism (I think it's in the book of Levitticus) in the Old Testament and some of the chapters of Paul's letter to the Romans in the New Testament. You think democracy should be replaced? Well, you can quote the New Testament (I think it's in the synoptic gospels) of Jesus being described as "the lord of lords and the king of kings." And, of course, in the Old Testament, the mythical Israel was either ruled by judges (think Gideon or possibly Samuel) or kings (think David and Solomon). (the other political types LW mentioned are probably found in OT books I haven't read.)

The BeAttitudes in Matthew's gospel (Chapter 5) are ignored as is the good Samaritan story found in Luke's gospel and the parable describing who will and will not get in to Heaven and why found in Matthew Chapter 25.

By the way, as an aside, as a Roman Catholic-turned-atheist, I know these stories better than many so-called practicing Christians do, and I'm sure the same applys to most ex-Mormons. We know this stuff is not true and why and the gullible, as well as many of those who profit off of the stories, hate us for it.

The Christian imperative is The Great Commission "Go into the world..." While door knocking is not my thing I personally wish TGC was the essential motivation of the collective church rather than attacking perceived ills in the world. Sadly, I think, people often know more what Christianity is against than what it is for.

nor do they follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

https://www.salon.com/2022/06/04/so-are-evangelicals-and-how-did-they-become-such-massive-hypocrites/


So who, what, why and how is an "evangelical"? I often forget after all my years of growing up in the church, going to an evangelical seminary and my work in ministry, that many or perhaps most Americans have little knowledge and understanding of the evangelical movement, the Christian faith and how it all connects to American culture and American politics. I would say that most Americans are frustrated at the disproportionate influence and political power that evangelical Christians hold. For some the frustration is more personal because of how they've been treated by the church types. Either way, this mysterious species — the evangelicals — seem to be a major problem in American society. As a trained evangelical, and an ordained minister, I would have to say I completely agree.

Who are these evangelicals? First off, their true ancestors are the Pharisees of the New Testament, whom Jesus describes as being obsessed with legalistic questions but neglecting "the more important matters of the law — justice, mercy and faithfulness." This is the primary group that had Jesus killed. Much like the Pharisees, today's American evangelicals do not represent the faith in any genuine way. They have done more damage to the name of Christianity than any group I can think of. Their misuse of the Christian faith as a political weapon against anyone they see as an enemy is driven primarily by greed and a thirst for power.

What are these evangelicals? Currently and historically, they are nothing more than a political action committee. They have nothing to do with the foundations of the Christian faith. Their political agenda is based on hate, rejection, condemnation and self-righteousness. The biblical Pharisees, who were the enemies of Jesus, used their political connections to have him killed. In our own time, these new Pharisees use their enormous political influence to reject foreigners, deny health insurance to millions, judge the poor as lazy, refuse any and all regulation of deadly firearms and stand in opposition to equality of opportunity. In short, they stand side by side with the oppressors on virtually every issue.

Why are there evangelicals? As with the Pharisees of the time of Jesus, these evangelical leaders formed a group because their version of the faith was being pushed aside. The Pharisee movement arose during a time of perceived or actual moral decadence in the Roman Empire, which the evangelicals also believe is occurring today in America. Evangelicals panicked at the rise of the "social gospel" when it became the driving force behind the civil rights movement of the 1960s, and panicked further with the largely secular feminist movement and LGBTQ Pride movement. Evangelicals could see their power and influence waning and immediately went into action.

>Sadly, I think, people often know more what Christianity is against than what it is for.

That's one problem. The information regarding what they are for or against is coming from Christians themselves. Show me one Christian who believes one thing and I'll find you a Christian who believes the opposite. Both are sincere. Both think they are the good Christians. The Bible itself is much of the problem too.

That quote is spot on, anybody - and dagny, you're right too when you say "The Bible itself is much of the problem too", although I think most of the real problems (apart from St Paul ;-) are in the old testament which is early iron age folk/religious tales and which features a decidedly different god who comes across as pretty psychotic.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2022 03:50PM by Soft Machine.

The further I get away from religious indoctrination, the less I get it. Oh, I do intellectually, but viscerally, not so much. So much of it is just straight up insane. Which is why, I suppose, so many extant faith traditions make it a super high priority to brain-wash the next generation while they're young.

There was a time after I left the church behind that I could, in retrospect naïvely, take the view of "different strokes for different folks" type thing. Not any more. What these fundamentalist wackjobs are doing to our society is beyond lamentable and has to stop. While the 1A guarantees the right for one to practice any wackadoodle belief system they want, it cannot and should not allow infringement on others based upon said misguided, illogical, and demonstrably destructive beliefs. Our Founders, for all their warts and wrinkles, were very wise indeed to want a separation of church and state.

Jefferson wanted a separation between church and state. Washington would have been happy with a theocracy.

If religious beliefs are on the decline, why is the world getting crazier? That tells me maybe religious fanatics aren't the problem.

Government support of scientism and militarism, two very expensive cults that depend on whatever "revealed truths" can be made to stick, could be considered a kind of theocracy. Maybe the nutters coming out of the woodwork isn't such a bad thing.

Did you say "scientism" ?

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jefferson wanted a separation between church and
> state. Washington would have been happy with a
> theocracy.

I challenge you to prove that latter statement.

You won't be able to do so. Washington was in fact one of the most adamant in demanding a firewall between church and state.

James Madison was also very adamant about separation of Church and state.

And wrote about it frequently and adamantly.

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jefferson wanted a separation between church and
> state. Washington would have been happy with a
> theocracy.
>
> If religious beliefs are on the decline, why is
> the world getting crazier? That tells me maybe
> religious fanatics aren't the problem.
>
> Government support of scientism and militarism,
> two very expensive cults that depend on whatever
> "revealed truths" can be made to stick, could be
> considered a kind of theocracy. Maybe the nutters
> coming out of the woodwork isn't such a bad thing.

Because it's not really about religion. It's about racism and hatred masquerading as religion.

My father personally knew Jimmy Carter — a real, genuine Evangelical Christian who practices what he preaches.

Contrast this with today's Evangelical far right fundies who are trying to use religion to make America into a white nationalist state — but unlike years past when it was just plain old white supremacy, now we are going to have "christian" schools, "christian" rules, etc. "Religion" is a tool for social and racial dominance for people who dream of making America look like monochrome "Father Knows Best" instead of full spectrum "Star Trek." They are now a minority in America and seek to game and rig the system to maintain their hold on power. That's why they see an African American president, guys holding hands, drag queen story time, interracial families, and trans kids in schools as real threats to their existence.

It's the same thing with the roots of Islamic terrorism — which is more about a reaction to 19th Century British colonialism and 20th century American support for Israel and repressive Arab regimes during the Cold War than it is about Islam. Evangelical fundies in America want to erase all the social change since the end of WW2 and religion is just a means to an end for them.

As LW said, if you are looking for evidence for the faux claim that the Founding Fathers wanted a theocracy, you will find exactly the opposite.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2022 05:55AM by anybody.

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> . . . if you are looking for evidence for
> the faux claim that the Founding Fathers wanted a
> theocracy, you will find exactly the opposite.

That's why the key is NOT to look. It's better to imagine what you want and then presume it is true.

That you can be right regardless of the facts.

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Washington would have been happy with a
> theocracy.

Hogwash.

ziller is wondering ~



if OPie actually knows ~



any religious fanatics ~



or if OPie ~



only reads about them ~



in the news ~



? ? ? ~

OPie has explained in detail her time socializing intensively with Mormons and her interactions with born-again Christians.

That's not a complete list of the world's extremists, but it is a good start.

that is sad ~


ziller hopes OPie can avoid socializing with those types ~

They are desperate. No capacity for attachment or intimacy but a great urge to be with people in a group. To yell, scream, point finger together with.

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I use observation, logic, and reason to solve
> problems and to explain the world.
===============================

Right.
And they don't.

With Belief, one can dispense with the work of "observation, logic, and reason" because: "The Answer"
(in fact, data/observation is eschewed because it tends often to contradict belief so must be avoided)

Empiricists collect data and reason out solutions.
Ideologists/believers already have "The Answer." Data and reason simply get in the way.

It's hopeless to try and "understand" them through application of reason. It's a relief when finally this is understood.

Knowing the circumstance we can stop wasting time/energy and do what must be done.

Dealing with an oppositional child who has not yet learned to reason, we don't spend a lot of time/energy trying to negotiate and reason with the kid because the kid just can't reason. We set about the task of creating a world where Johnny isn't running things, because Johnny running things is dangerous.