Growing up in the sixties and seventies, I was for the most part a good little Mormon boy. One Friday night when I was in the ninth grade, I was staying overnight at a friend’s house with a couple of other friends, when what should appear but two bottles of Boones Farm wine. My friend’s parents were gone for the weekend, and his brother, who was a senior in high school, had been left in charge. The wine was from his supply for the party he was going to have the next day.

No one pushed me to drink, but curiosity got the best of me, and I did drink - a lot. I got very sick, and swore off drinking then and there.

Well the next Sunday the bishop called me into his office and asked me about it. (I figure that my friend’s brother told his friend who was a priest in my ward about it, and he went straight to the bishop. I don’t blame the brother because I’m sure he didn’t think his friend would snitch on me. I mean, who does that?)

I was honest with the bishop, who was a very good person, and told him I had made a mistake that I was sorry for, and that I’d promised myself and the lord that I would never drink again. He seemed quite pleased with my attitude, and said, “I want you to know we love you, and as far as I’m concerned, and more importantly, as far as the lord is concerned, it’s as if this never happened.” And he was true to his word. From then on he really acted as if nothing had happened.

About three years later I was having an interview with the stake president, who I didn’t know very well, and he was asking the usual questions. When we got to the WoW, after I’d given the appropriate answer, he said, “Can I ask you a question? Have you ever tasted alcohol?” Immediately I thought, “Not fair!! You can’t ask that!” Then I thought, “Have you been talking to my bishop? Did the priest open his big mouth again? Is this a trap?” I decided to take the bishop at his word, and simply said, “No.” The stake president said, “That’s very impressive. You’d be surprised how few people can say that.” and we continued the interview.

That really bothered me, even when I still believed - actually, especially when I still believed. Did anyone else ever have an experience like this, where you felt like the leaders weren’t playing by the rules?

What would the "trap" be? If you said yes, wouldn't you explain the situation and that a priesthood holder had already handled it? I don't understand what about this is against "the rules" you think they should be playing by? Do you think if you'd explained everything that he'd punish you for this old crime right then, even though it had already been taken care of?

If you've ever tasted alcohol before, regardless of repentance and a prior confession, do you think you just don't get to go to the temple?

To me, when the bishop said, “It’s as if it didn’t happen.” He meant for me to consider it as if it had never happened. This same bishop taught us that when a nail is pulled from a board, if there has been true repentance, no hole remains.

To be clear, if someone asked me such a question now, I would either tell them the truth or tell them it was none of their business, but teenager me was thrown for a loop.

(It’s not a big deal.)

...came from guilt and a certain belief, created by Mormonism itself, that he could read your mind and knew you were guilty. As long as your face didn't belie you (and it apparently didn't, because the SP didn't probe any further), your answer was fine, even though it was a lie.

If you had answered the question with the suggested answers you have now, you would have either had to confess the whole thing to the SP or left the SP feeling that he couldn't trust you.

I know. I know! The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints teaches its members to lie (like you did) with "traps" like that, but the answer you gave without the lie direct showing on your face or in your eyes, was absolutely the best answer that could have been given at the time. Think of it this way. If the SP didn't believe that your answer was true, it was his responsibility to investigate the matter and not your responsibility to provide him with fodder to investigate.

my response would be
That is none of your business!

Yeah, I can see how it felt like a trap. One guy says it is forgotten, then the next guy brings it up again. It's inconsistent when different bishops have different prying questions. How is a kid supposed to understand or trust them at all?

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah, I can see how it felt like a trap. One guy
> says it is forgotten, then the next guy brings it
> up again. It's inconsistent when different bishops
> have different prying questions. How is a kid
> supposed to understand or trust them at all?

The problem is that the SP really "didn't bring it up again" at all. According to the original post, the question was:

"he said, “Can I ask you a question? Have you ever tasted alcohol?”"

There is no mention of specifics in that question--the SP was basically on a "fishing expedition," which is why I think it was proper for the OP to lie in this situation.

In fact, the SP's response to him bears me out. If the SP had actually known about the incident, he would have called out the lie. Instead, he said (according to the original post) that the SP said that most of the teenagers who he asked this question to admitted to having tasted alcohol at one time or another.

thedesertrat1, that is definitely the correct answer, but like I said, the question threw me for a loop.

Obviously the true answer was “yes,” but if I took the bishop at his word the answer was “no.”

But what if the stake president knew the truth and was seeing how I would answer?

That all went through my head in less than a second.

But, yeah, yours is the correct answer.

Yes, dagny. It’s the inconsistency, isn’t it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2022 10:58AM by botchan.

Yep. That is exactly the thought process for someone trying to anticipate whatever the heck answer they are fishing for.

My guess is that the SP asked about it because it's common for youth to experiment a bit. It sounds like he wouldn't have come down hard on you if you had said yes.

I have (unfortunately) been in callings where I had to interview young men and women. I certainly wasn’t privy to anything that had come up during previous interviews. I’ve never been a Stake President, so I suppose it’s possible that they have access to info that those in the lower levels of leadership don’t have, but I think that’s extremely unlikely.

I’m pretty sure your SP just asked the same questions to all the youth.

...and I was never a Mormon.

So the idiot older brother was left in charge, eh?

That stunt that he pulled is called supplying alcohol to minors, which, depending on the situation, would be considered a misdemeanor or in some cases, a felony.

Your bishop wanted to sweep the incident under the rug and forget it happened. How typical to make the victim feel guilty and protect the perpetrator.

If you had had to have medical attention, I highly doubt sweeping it under the rug would have sufficed.

For this, and many other reasons, we never allowed our kids to go to sleepovers; too many stories like this, or worse things happening. I'm relieved for you that nothing worse happened.

You knew I was going to go there ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F4qzPbcFiA

summer, as you say, it’s very common for young people to experiment, like I did, and a yes answer by me wouldn’t have been a big deal, especially since it had been taken care of years ago. I guess what my young mind wondered was does repentance result in forgiven and forgotten, as the bishop had clearly said, or forgiven but not forgotten, calling for a yes answer. And there was my suspicion that he knew but was testing me. Again, this whole conversation taking place in my head in less than a second.

valkyriequeen, you of course are right. I think things were a little more, shall we say “laid back“ in those days. I don’t mean that in a good way. We definitely had more “freedom.” There are other words that might be more accurate.

From what I have seen you get a permanent record in Mormonism in the little black book. You may be forgiven, your repentence accepted, and the "never happened" even noted, but all stays on your record. I would think the SP would see the bishop's record before such an interview. Probably with the note that all was forgiven and would be forgotten. But it's there foreeeeevvver and ever amen.

So, the SP chose not to delve further. The spirit had witnessed to him that you were pure and good to go!

There's really only one viable interpretation of "It's like it never happened."

Except in rare occasions...  Like that time this particular woman looked me in the eye and said "It's like it never happened".  The distain in her voice still haunts me.  

The trap is ours to allow.

I always joke with my co-workers when I say its not their fault, unless I change the rules, and then make it their fault, but that same rule does not apply to me, because I can change the rule to suit my needs at any time, but they cannot.

They laugh at it, and never realize that what I just said happens on a regular basis at work, church, family gatherings, etc.

One mega trap I allowed mentally crushed me and almost caused me to consider taking my life, it was caused by a Mission President in cahoots with my Stake President. It took me weeks to see the trap and how I walked obediently into the situation.

So unless you are paying me tons of money and I agree, the moment I see a trap coming, I put an end to the situation. Of course I get the statement on a regular basis that I have an attitude problem, but I smile and say I am good with that.

My sneaky teenage brain would have tried to cover all bases by pausing, then saying "Someone offered me wine once, and I took one little taste and realized it was awful and made me feel sick, and how could anybody ever want that junk!?"

Of course, a real jerk bishop or SP would have needled me for details about who it was, so he could do a 'Law & Order' and try to take down anyone involved...

I didn't inhale.

Doesn't sound like much of a trap. Mormonism also has the honey trap. Now there's a trap.

. . . BYU?

RM Motel. RMs check in but they don't check out.

The question I should have asked myself is, “Why am I letting this insurance salesman, that I don’t even know, ask me all of these personal questions?” I was in a bigger trap than I knew, and it was several years later before I finally got out.

Might be a normal question for him. A lot like some cops I know who go to see someone and start with "I guess you know why I'm here". At times the are doing nothing more than a quick check but end up with people confessing crimes way past what they were expecting.

Guilt - along with paranoia - have sunk many.

I’m amazed at how little if any training LDS Stake Presidents and Bishops get. Sure they get the flavor of the month priorities from the First Presidency but in the majority of the matters the SP and Bish are flying by the seat of their pants.

So you might have a church leader who was a party boy in their younger years. Some of my hard drinking and girl banging high school chums later became bishops, stake presidents and one is even currently serving in the First Quorum of the seventy. These guys are either going to be lenient and understanding or they are going to be just the opposite.

Then you have the real lifelong TBM leaders who are so far removed from the realities of the world that what they learn doing interviews really disturbs them. It might make them sad. It even might make them angry and the lash out at the confessor.

Church leaders are like a box of chocolates. You just never know what you are going to get. I say best to stay away and never discuss things of a personal matter with anyone you don’t know well. Blind trust is for fools.

If you feel guilty about something tell it to your dog. You can trust your dog.

The bartenders at our favorite restaurant have gotten to know me as the "Margarita Lite" lady. I LIKE Margaritas! However, alcohol doesn't agree with certain medications I am required to take. So I tell the waitress that I want an "almost-virgin" Margarita. Just a few drops of tequila or whatever, so I can taste it. They are always very obliging about it.

Of course it was a trap. If you had already told him you obeyed the Word of Wisdom, what was he still digging for?
I'll tell you what else was a trap...

Years ago, I went in to renew my temple recommend so I could attend my brother's wedding. Due to my impoverished nature, I had not always been a full-tithe payer, but I had made and effort for several months to stay current. I even brought a tithing payment with me to the church that day.

I should have known there was a problem when the bishop saw me waiting in the foyer (on temple recommend night) and said, "What's he doing here?"

The interview went along like usual until we got to the tithing question. He asks if I'm a full-tithe payer and I say, "Yes".
Then, he leaves the room for a minute. When he comes back, he has a printout of my donations for the year and says, "No, you're not.
(Come to find out, they had recorded some of my tithing under my brother's name because the ward clerk couldn't tell us apart.)

He then told me I was not honoring my priesthood.
My wife (at the time) had told him I was abusive, which I strongly denied.
He said it didn't matter, because if a woman FEELS abused then that means she is being abused.
He didn't ask me how I felt.

No recommend for Elder Brother that day.
No attending the wedding.

At the bishop's insistence, we went to LDS marriage counseling...once.
The counselor seemed to agree with me too much, so she didn't want to go back.
The bishop was so concerned that he never did anything to follow up.

The whole thing was a nightmare. Worst game of bishop roulette I ever played.

How many people did you baptize?

Both my mission prez and stake prez insisted that I wasted the Lord's time as a missionary because my baptism numbers didn't match "their" official count.

Obviously you counted when you wore your whites in the font. But what if you baptized those taught by the sisters?

Did you count those you found, taught, but then left the area due to a transfer?

Did you luck out and transfer into an upcoming baptism?

What about those you taught but weren't ready then poached by other leaders (DL/ZL)?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/24/2022 05:46PM by messygoop.

into incriminating yourself. You were taught your whole life that your bishop and maybe your parents too could discern your thoughts by inspiration, and that it was God basically narqing on you and it was better to just come clean yourself. Cuz you can’t hide your crimes from God. He sees all. This is especially hardcore if your dad was your bishop (mine was). The cheapness of this trick verses the power it can have to make people out themselves for punishment is almost cruel. What your bishop probably intended by his last words was to subtly throw some last ditch shade at you as though you were lying, but also it betrays the fact that he never knew your mind beyond the signals your body language and vocal admissions gave him.

I have a story. It was 2015. I was a student in Rexburg. I had this ongoing thing where I keep having to talk about “immorality” with my bishops because I won’t just lie when they ask me those pop questions very aggressively. I’m a very anxious person. Well, with my atheism cementing some new confidence to think for myself, this time I did lie; and I did so well without any tells (I think), and the reaction I got was surprising as hell. The bishop and I had been talking earlier about the stress of being a bishop, because my dad was a bishop and I’ve seen how that goes, and we talked about some deep doctrine stuff so I was already in the boy’s club with this guy. He leaned into me hard as though to call my bluff and he told me, genuinely, that he wanted to know my secret, because almost everybody he interviewed struggled with, uh, self-abuse at the very least and they were all depressed about it because no matter how penitent they were they all knew they were gonna offend again. My jaw would have dropped if I wasn’t mustering all I had to maintain my composure. It might have dropped anyway. Idk. He was serious. He articulated to me the stress spreading among the community of bishops on campus because none of them knew how to help these students nick their sinful habits. They’d almost given up hope, because there was not a single success story until he heard me say I was one just now. So I taught this guy some of the principles that LDS counselors had taught me as well some things I had picked up from a book called Believing Christ and I was free to go after that. I did not think that answering the way I did would make HIM open up to me. It’s usually the other way around. God, I wish I recorded it so you could hear the admissions he made about what the purity culture of the church is like on the administrative side.

It's a trap !

https://images.pastchronicles.com/2021/12/63f7cc41-burn5.jpg