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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: August 17, 2022 11:08AM

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old he will not depart from it." Proverbs 22:6 KJV

They do screw with your formative years, don't they?


As an extreme Mormon I was raised to put myself last always and forever. I got myself out of that church but there are parts of that church I cannot get out of me. Besides being trained up, I was born with a set of genes that made me more susceptible than the average.

The whole thing sets you up to be prey for the rest of your life.

I will not say, "Forgive them for they know not what they do."
There is no excuse for treating your children that way. There is no excuse for treating anybody else's children that way either. The Mormon gerontocracy are vile and disgusting. There is no redeeming quality to that church.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: August 17, 2022 12:28PM

I'm an extreme introvert who was forced by the church to learn to behave like an extrovert.

During that training, I faithfully (but maybe a bit truculently) put in a lot of effort doing things I did not enjoy. The church thought it was doing the right thing. From their perspective, I'm sure they'd feel good about defending the practice.

From my perspective, they helped me become a better adversary, or at least an adversary who enjoys his work. Yeah, I know it's hard to imagine doing something more fun than Home Teaching...

I wonder when ghawd will start teaching mormons how to use the internet correctly.

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Posted by: CrispingPin ( )
Date: August 17, 2022 12:35PM

"it's hard to imagine doing something more fun than Home Teaching"

As an introvert, making small talk during home teaching visits was torture.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: August 17, 2022 01:29PM

Always felt like "home invasion" to me. It was painful on so many levels whether I was doing it or there was a knock on the door in the middle of your favorite TV program.

Now I feel the same about conference calls for the business.

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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: August 22, 2022 05:31AM

After I resigned, I only had a few more unexpected visits. I would greet them at the door with, "Oh, hi. Were we expecting you?" They would hem and haw and admit that no, there was no appointment. Then I would say that this was not a good time for us, and in future, could they please call first?

I'd say I've done this maybe three times in maybe 15 years. It worked.

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Posted by: Kathleen ( )
Date: August 17, 2022 03:29PM

Yep, train the kid.

I had dinner w/some TBM family whose worst fear is that I may influence their children away from the church.

One child was selected to say the prayer, but refused.

A screaming kerfuffle ensued where I anticipated rounds expended, a stabbing or a drowning, at least a bludgeoning or wild-eyed violence with blunt-force trauma generally associated with a dinner prayer.



But, their fear is my bad influence.



. . . Not a peep outta me.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: August 17, 2022 04:07PM

Dearest D&D: I hope you put yourself first every single day now that you're in charge of your life. Because they shouldn't have done what they did.


Please excuse me for this huge long blurb I want to place on your thread. It's about trauma, generational in nature, which science can now inform us actually affects our genetics.


Perhaps that can go some way towards explaining what the hell happens when fundamentalist religion and/or its adherents (especially one's parents and other forebears) get hold of a young mind.


I had no clue that trauma can affect one's genes, literally on a biological level, but that's what they're discovering. No wonder the effects of some life-altering experiences can be so deep-seated and consequential.


It's obvious that environment and other outside elements such as when and where a person grows up as well as family history, feed into how a person grows up. That, in turn, can affect how they parent, which then affects their offspring and so on and so on.


But the finding that (generational) trauma can alter one's genetic make-up, which then, obviously, affects oneself and one's offspring, that's a mind-bender to me.


Here's my long blurb on it:


I read an intriguing article this morning about the biology involved in intergenerational trauma (IG). I’ve lost track of it for the moment so unfortunately can’t provide a link, but I found others (excerpts below) that mention the biological effects of IG that I hadn’t heard about until now.

Examples of wide-scale traumatic events mentioned in the links below include the Holocaust, Indigenous communities (i.e., residential school system and other negative settler interventions), as well as 9/11.


An article re intergenerational trauma in Indigenous communities in Canada states, in part:

“Did you know trauma can hurt you, even if you didn’t experience it? Children whose parents have had traumas in their lives can be affected “inter-generationally”. Chronic trauma not only alters behaviour but can also change your genes. In Indigenous communities today, some are suffering from intergenerational trauma effects.”


Article:

https://nbcc.ca/indigenous/did-you-know/intergenerational-trauma


It seems obvious that traumatized parents would inevitably and subconsciously pass some of that along to their offspring. The stunning part to me is the mention of trauma actually altering genes. Never heard that one before.

Obviously the major traumas mentioned in these articles are wide-scale, far-reaching, life-altering and historical in scope. I do, though, see some correlation to negative experiences within fundamentalist religious environments regarding passing on trauma via behaviour and, now, come to find out, even genetically as well. I include the Mormon Church and the WatchTower Society (JWs) in that sphere, along with other examples we can easily identify. I’m not intending to exaggerate nor minimize trauma/ill effects from abusive religious experiences in considering them alongside the recognized major historical events that are known to have created intergenerational trauma. I just think there are elements that can correlate to supremely negative experiences within religious environments.


Many posters have shared their accounts of the negative effects of Mormonism in their youth and in succeeding years, even after they have departed the church. Perhaps their parents were intense about the religion, in part due to their own parents being so, and also due to an individual’s personality that may make them a rigid, demanding parent. There is a strong element of coercion while growing up Mormon in that missing meetings or expected milestones is not well tolerated, the prime example being young males having little choice in the matter of serving missions. As we’ve often observed, the first 20 years, at least, of one’s life are strictly mapped out and there is little/no room for individualism or free choice if one wishes to stay in good standing with family, friends and religious leaders. The pressure to conform is intense. It can easily negatively affect the behaviour of parents and children.


What so caught my attention with the first article I saw today about trauma and genetics was the idea that humans can be influenced/affected not only by the way their parents raised them but also by elements within their genes that have developed due to traumatic experiences suffered by parents and other previous generations (insert scientific revelations here that I can’t find at the moment).


As I stated above, I can see how the concept of intergenerational trauma could apply to some religious groups familiar to us. The causes of trauma may not closely correlate to religious experiences but some of the effects could apply.


Another concept that hits home is mentioned in the second article, below: “… being in that “survival mode” headspace is harmful to both physical and mental health in the long term.”


It is likely common for Mormon youth to be in “survival mode”, especially if just marking time until their mission is over and they can start making some of their own choices (although still within the confines of the Mormon life, unless they make the momentous choice to leave).


Also: “…your body [has a] physiological response to intergenerational trauma” (which can result in major adverse health effects).


Too, it’s obvious that if a youth in the church doesn’t have a strong belief in the church’s teachings that can be traumatic growing up. Don’t even get me started on youth being taught to think/say “I’m not worthy”, as a Mormon guy I met in SLC stated to me when mentioning that he didn’t go on a mission (because he was gay, he later stated).


To me the most striking conclusion of the researchers overall is that trauma is not only passed on in families or cultures by word of mouth or behaviours and choices but is actually transmitted genetically throughout succeeding generations.



The article below (from GoodTherapy 2021) mentions trauma associated with the Holocaust, Indigenous communities and 911, in addition to other major widespread events that echo through affected generations. I note the concept of trauma influencing one’s genetic make-up. (The article I lost the link for explained this process scientifically – sorry I can’t provide those fascinating details to better explain how this develops).


https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/Understanding_Intergenerational_Trauma


Excerpts:

“Simple trauma describes a single, circumscribed traumatic event (such as an assault). Complex trauma occurs when a person experiences a series of repeated traumatic events or when new, unique traumatic incidents occur. Complex trauma early in life can damage multiple aspects of the child’s development. Complex trauma may involve entire families in incidents of violence, addiction, or poverty.”


“Historical trauma refers to traumatic experiences or events that are shared by a group of people within a society, or even by an entire community, ethnic, or national group. Historical trauma meets three criteria: widespread effects, collective suffering, and malicious intent. Historical Trauma Response (HTR) can manifest as substance abuse, suicidal thoughts, depression, anxiety, low self-esteem, anger, violence, and difficulty in emotional regulation.”


“Intergenerational trauma (sometimes referred to as trans- or multigenerational trauma) is defined as trauma that gets passed down from those who directly experience an incident to subsequent generations. Intergenerational trauma may begin with a traumatic event affecting an individual, traumatic events affecting multiple family members, or collective trauma affecting larger community, cultural, racial, ethnic, or other groups/populations (historical trauma).”


“Parents may transmit inborn genetic vulnerabilities triggered by their own traumatic experience or via parenting styles that have been impacted by their trauma. Survivors face many challenges when they are parents, including difficulty bonding to and creating healthy emotional attachments with their children.”


“Children experience and understand the world primarily through direct caregivers and are, therefore, profoundly affected by their parents’ modeling. Children both mimic their parents’ behaviors and learn to navigate future relationships based on how they learned to relate to their parents. Enduring coping mechanisms may be forged out of efforts to avoid and/or “fix” a parent’s abusive behavior, anger, depression, neglect, or other problematic behaviors.”


“Systematic attacks on a person or group’s identity, such as the Holocaust or the Aboriginal experience, are particularly damaging because identity and tradition are essential to perceived meaning in life.”


“Maternal stress and trauma are associated with health consequences for both mother and child, including low birth weight, fetal growth, and preterm delivery. The effect of maternal stress and trauma translate into additional risks for the infant later in life, including hypertension, heart disease, Type II diabetes mellitus, and even cancer.”


“Recent studies demonstrate that traumatic events can induce genetic changes in the parents, which may then be transmitted to their children with adverse effects.”


“In 2005, a study conducted to better understand the relationship between the PTSD symptoms of women exposed to the World Trade Center collapse on September 11, 2001, and their infant children’s cortisol levels found lower cortisol levels both in the mothers and their babies. Cortisol is a hormone released through the adrenal gland which helps regulate stress response. These findings speak to the importance of factoring epigenetic effects into our evolving understanding of how posttraumatic effects may be transmitted across generations .”


“Intergenerational trauma may be transmitted through parenting behaviors, changes in gene expression, and/or other pathways that we have yet to understand fully. These may be biological, social, psychological, and/or a mixture of all three. As we trace these modes of transmission, practitioners will be better able to match interventions to specific factors that either propagate traumatic effects across generations or mitigate against their transmission.”


Another article on similar themes:

Verywellmind (January 2022):

https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-integenerational-trauma-5211898


Excerpts:

“Humans have survived for thousands of years by evolving the ability to adapt. If you live with chronic stress or have lived through a traumatic event, certain responses activate to help you survive—these are known as trauma responses.”


“Although these responses are helpful for short-term survival, being in that “survival mode” headspace is harmful to both physical and mental health in the long term. When your brain learns the adaptive behavior necessary to keep yourself and your family safe/alive, these adaptations may be passed on to future generations and can be challenging to un-learn.”


“Remaining in "survival mode" can limit one's ability to thrive, as living in survival mode is founded in response to fear/trauma/scarcity. Thriving is possible when there is a developed sense and lived experience of safety and security, which people suffering from intergenerational trauma may not have a model/cellular knowing or foundation for.”


“Those affected by intergenerational trauma might experience symptoms similar to that of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), including hypervigilance, anxiety, and mood dysregulation.”


“However, because the individual did not directly experience the trauma themselves, they will not experience flashbacks or intrusive memories. They experience trauma symptoms and trauma responses from events that did not occur to them; rather, the response is inherited genetically.”


“Because stress responses are linked to more physical health issues, intergenerational trauma can also manifest as medical issues including heart disease, stroke, or early death.”


“Intergenerational trauma occurs when the effects of trauma are passed down between generations. This can occur if a parent experienced abuse as a child or Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs), and the cycle of trauma and abuse impacts their parenting.”


“Intergenerational trauma can also be the result of oppression, including racial trauma or other systemic oppression. The effects of intergenerational trauma have been documented in descendants of refugees, residential schools, and Holocaust survivors, demonstrating that this type of trauma continues to impact populations for generations after a collective traumatic event has occurred.”


“When someone experiences trauma, their DNA responds by activating genes to help them survive the stressful time. Genes that prime us for things like a fight, flight, freeze, or fawn response will activate to help us be ready for future dangerous situations. We then pass these genes onto our offspring in order to prepare them for possible traumatic events.”


“Our genetics do a great job of keeping us safe even if this does not mean keeping us happy. When genes are primed for stressful or traumatic events, they respond with greater resilience to those events, but this constant state of anticipating danger is stressful. The trade-off of being constantly prepared to keep us safe increases our body's stress levels and impacts our mental and physical health over time.”


“If your parents or grandparents experienced trauma, their DNA coded itself to have a survival response that helped them get through those events, which then passed down through generations. This “survival mode” remains encoded and passed down for multiple generations in the absence of additional trauma.”

-----

Think of all our great-greats, greats, grands, parents who grew up during world wars/wars/conflicts, famine, Depression, oppression, poverty, injustice, fear, deprivation, et al.

That's a lot of direct trauma to them, vicarious trauma to their offspring, generational trauma to many, and invasion of our very genetic make-up with negative consequences.

Wow.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2022 04:22PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: August 17, 2022 05:25PM

Fascinating, Nightingale. Thanks.

Besides the survival mode thing, this got me thinking the most:

"Children both mimic their parents’ behaviors and learn to navigate future relationships based on how they learned to relate to their parents."

Extreme obedience while you are young means you are learning to navigate under that condition and that may continue well into adulthood? I wouldn't argue with that. And so you attempt to correct your manner of interaction with others, but, is it that easy?

I feel my father's DNA sometimes. I swear.

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: August 17, 2022 07:53PM

It's like when you say something to your kid and you realize you heard the exact same thing out of your parent. Sometimes it is the right thing to say but you need to think about it first. The conditioning does run deep. I think childhood position is really hard to break too. I was The Fixer and that sure has stuck with me. I think that identifying things can go a long way toward managing them if not "fixing" them.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: August 17, 2022 08:20PM

The question is whether we can recognize our own damage before we inflict it on our children. To one extent or another, recovery truly is a multi-generational process.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: August 17, 2022 08:34PM

"I think that identifying things can go a long way toward managing them if not "fixing" them."

I do agree. Years ago I read the book "Co-Dependent No More" recommended by a friend who thought I needed it. She was right. Behavior that I was completely unaware of was identified. Giving me a choice to change it. That was hard and even harder to maintain as sliding back is easy since what was engrained doesn't go away but just needs, as you say, to be managed.

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Posted by: cl2notloggedin ( )
Date: August 17, 2022 08:29PM

yesterday. He asked me if I ever set limits for my son (or anyone else). We've had a lot of problems with our son. We had to call the cops on him two weeks ago or longer. There were other times we should have called, but didn't. I said to my therapist, how was I raised? He was like "a good little mormon girl."

I'm not good at setting boundaries. I do let people walk all over me. My life is an example obviously.

I like to think I've healed from what happened, but in reality, I haven't. Glad I'm 65. Not so long left to live. Not like I'm going to end it either. I talk to one other ex-wife of a gay and we know that mormonism really messed up our lives. She's in her 40s. Glad I have an ex mormon therapist who gets it immediately. No explaining there.

At the very least, I had a dad who wasn't TBM. We all saw something different than other families. All but my disabled brother are no longer mormon. Even the last hold out, my older sister. I told this woman who is an ex-wife of a gay that we were never treated well in our ward growing up and then I told her we were raised democrat by our dad. He didn't have to tell us who to vote for. We heard all he had to say and we had a lot of trust in our parents. They were very honest people. She said "No wonder you were treated different in mormonism in Utah as democrats."

But at 65, I'm still caught up in the insanity that mormonism brought into my life.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: August 18, 2022 10:28AM

And that is why our dogs are everything. They have no idea what Mormonism is and look at us with those big innocent eyes and make everything worthwhile for a bit.

Such a big heart you have. I see you as everyone's anchor. But it gets old, doesn't it.

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: August 18, 2022 10:33AM

It gets old and we get tired but you have to keep on doing what you can. Some things/people need to be cut out along the way but dogs are never one of them. Even when they snore and wake you up or decide they really NEED to sleep on your back {hugz}.

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Posted by: Kathleen ( )
Date: August 18, 2022 11:42AM

This book is a must:

The Givers And The Takers by Chris Evatt and Bruce Feld. 1983.

The authors included the name of very famous person, but after she was killed they rewrote the book into a lukewarm paperback waste of time.

You must get an old copy with this ISBN: 0-02-536690-4.

Look on Biblio.com.

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Posted by: cl2notloggedin ( )
Date: August 18, 2022 11:53AM

thoughts about my inability to set boundaries as I am NOT GOOD AT IT!

My dogs are my everything.

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