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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: September 26, 2022 02:07PM

Hey, wait a minute -- I thought only Jesus can (supposedly) absolve you from sin -- at least in Christianity. Maybe Kirill has a toll-free hotline to the Almighty...


https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/orthodox-church-leader-says-russian-soldiers-dying-ukraine-will-be-cleansed-sin-2022-09-26/

Patriarch Kirill, the head of Russia’s Orthodox Church, said during a sermon that when a soldier, driven by a sense of duty, dies on the battlefield, his death is “equal to the sacrifice.”

The head of the Russian Orthodox Church has told Russian soldiers that death in Ukraine will absolve them of all sins.

Patriarch Kirill, who in February justified Putin's decision to invade Ukraine on spiritual and ideological grounds, made the remarks after Moscow said up to 300,000 reservists would be called up to fight.

The decision has sparked pockets of protests across Russia, with one monitoring group reporting more than 700 people being detained in 32 different cities.

Russia's top priest said: "Willingness to make sacrifices is the greatest expression of the best of human qualities.

"We know that today many die in the fields of internecine warfare. The Church prays that this battle will end as soon as possible, that as few brothers as possible will kill each other in this fratricidal war."

He then went on to reassure those called up to fight that should they die, their death would be a "sacrifice" and would "cleanse" their sins.

He said: "At the same time, the Church realises that if someone, guided by a sense of duty, by the need to be loyal to the oath, remains true to his calling and goes to fulfil what their duty calls, and if that person dies while fulfilling this duty, he is undoubtedly accomplishes an act that equals a sacrifice.

"He sacrifices himself for the others.

"That is why we believe that this sacrifice cleanses all the sins that a person has committed."

Patriarch Kirill also said in his sermon on Sunday that he prayed for the fighting to end.

Last week Russia began its first military mobilisation since World War Two to enlist citizens to fight in Ukraine.

Vladimir Putin announced plans to mobilise 300,000 reserves to fight in the war in Ukraine, prioritising those with combat experience. He signed a new decree on Saturday that soldiers who surrender, desert, or refuse to fight can face up to 10 years in prison.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: September 26, 2022 02:13PM

But they don't get 72 virgins after they die. Kirill will need to up the ante or else go back to his cave.

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Posted by: Silence is Golden ( )
Date: September 26, 2022 02:36PM

The emperor has no clothes seems to be the scourge of our time. Will we evolve and use our grey matter as evolution provided, or become extinct?

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 26, 2022 02:37PM

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey, wait a minute -- I thought only Jesus can
> (supposedly) absolve you from sin -- at least in
> Christianity. Maybe Kirill has a toll-free
> hotline to the Almighty...

> Patriarch Kirill, the head of Russia’s Orthodox
> Church, said during a sermon that when a soldier,
> driven by a sense of duty, dies on the
> battlefield, his death is “equal to the
> sacrifice.”

> The head of the Russian Orthodox Church has told
> Russian soldiers that death in Ukraine will
> absolve them of all sins.

> He then went on to reassure those called up to
> fight that should they die, their death would be a
> "sacrifice" and would "cleanse" their sins.


Speaking as a moderate, general-type Christian (i.e. not rabid EV), my first reaction on reading your post was that Kirill's statement is blasphemy of the highest order, because I take the phrase "equal to the sacrifice" to mean a death that is on the same level as the sacrifice of Jesus.

However, you write "equal to THE sacrifice" and in the article you linked I see it says "equal to sacrifice". The 'the' is usually not all that crucial but in this case its presence or absence substantially changes the meaning of the phrase, at least the way I read and interpret it.

However, maybe I'm placing too much emphasis on the presence or absence of the 'the' in his pronouncement and he does indeed intend to refer to "the sacrifice". So in that case - blasphemy.

Too, not that I'm a biblical scholar, by any means, but: Many of the Russian men that as we speak are being sent to fight in the war that Russia precipitated (as in, they're the aggressors) are not volunteers but rather are being forcibly conscripted. This does not in any way relate to the biblical interpretation of Jesus Christ's death for the benefit of others.

In Christian speak, in effect the head of the Russian Orthodox Church is equating the wartime death of conscripted casualties of a man-made war with the death of the Son of God. Meaning that they are themselves by their own actions "cleansing" their own "sins".

As I said, blasphemy.

I see this as Kirill getting into the politics of it all.

But I'm no expert, at pretty much anything, and know nothing at all about the teachings of Russian Orthodoxy. Maybe this concept doesn't clang in their heads the way it does in mine when it meets up with the basic Christian message I have heard from my EV friends - as in:

"A foundational doctrine of the Christian faith is that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ paid the penalty for the sins of mankind."

There's nowhere anywhere that Christian doctrine (that I'm familiar with or would expect) states that a human can perform an act that would "cleanse" their own "sins".

Who am I to call out the Russian Orthodox leader. But. What is he thinking? Doing? Saying?

Does he really believe it or is it a lie?

If the latter, that is incomprehensible to me on every level, religious, secular, human.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2022 02:41PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: Tyson Dunn ( )
Date: September 27, 2022 06:23PM

There would be no difference between "His death is equal to the sacrifice." and "His death is equal to sacrifice."


Reuters renders Kirill's speech as:

"But at the same time, the Church realises that if somebody, driven by a sense of duty and the need to fulfil their oath ... goes to do what their duty calls of them, and if a person dies in the performance of this duty, then they have undoubtedly committed an act equivalent to sacrifice. They will have sacrificed themselves for others. And therefore, we believe that this sacrifice washes away all the sins that a person has committed."

This matches the Russian quote that I found, fairly accurately:

"Но в то же время церковь осознает, что если кто-то, движимый чувством долга и необходимостью исполнить свою клятву… пойдет на то, к чему призывает их долг, и если человек погибнет при исполнении этого долга, тогда они, несомненно, совершили действие эквивалентное жертвоприношению. Они пожертвуют собой ради других. И поэтому мы верим, что эта жертва смывает все грехи, совершенные человеком".


The last sentence is word-for-word:

[And] [therefore] [we] [believe], [that] [this] [sacrifice] [washes away] [all] [sins] [committed] [by a person].

Sounds like blasphemy to me.

Tyson

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 27, 2022 07:36PM

Tyson Dunn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sounds like blasphemy to me.

It sounds somewhat like the second anointing, also like Islamic extremists' encouragement to suicide bombers.

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Posted by: L.A. Exmo ( )
Date: September 26, 2022 03:54PM

Old tactic. Such as, 1000 years old. First Crusade old.

"…a letter, written by Pope Urban II to his followers in Bologna, on the 19th September 1096… It is a call to crusade promising those who go that they will be cleansed of all their sins; in other words, crusaders would go to heaven… perhaps people were longing to go, but Urban obviously felt the need to bolster numbers by offering a pardon of all sins as an additional incentive."

https://www.hist.cam.ac.uk/first-crusade-2

Urban at the Council of Clermont, 27 Nov 1095 -

"On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it. All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested."

https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/source/urban2-5vers.asp

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: September 26, 2022 04:22PM

In the recent movie The Northman, set in just barely pre-Christian Scandinavia, dying in battle was treated as a free ticket to getting into pagan heaven.

So yeah, old tactic. It just seems more cynically manipulative now, thanks to modern communication, and knowledge of history.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 26, 2022 03:57PM

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vladimir Putin . . .
> signed a new decree on Saturday that soldiers who
> surrender, desert, or refuse to fight can face up
> to 10 years in prison.

Ironic. A Russian who deserts gets sent to prison, where Putin is recruiting new volunteers for the war.

It reminds me of the Mel Brooks movie in which someone warns that "suicide is illegal, the penalty is death."

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: September 26, 2022 11:06PM

Ah the Russian Orthodox Church isn't all that bad. They don't like Mormons dead dunking their dead members. One reason there isn't a temple in Russia.

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: September 27, 2022 12:32AM

He is a disgusting KGB POS. He is a puppet for putin. He presides in the Temple to Death that putin slapped up for his own glory in 600 days. He is no man of God, he is a man of hate. Many churches that were under his umbrella have denounced him and his war machine. He will say and do anything his master tells him.

Can you tell I am not a fan?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZzUsEF486g

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: September 27, 2022 07:31AM

Patriarch Kirill knows who butters his bread, that's for sure. Once again, religion is used by the powerful to further their pet causes and to maintain their power. Kirill is lucky that some people still fall for that ruse.

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: September 28, 2022 08:47AM

Oh he doesn't just know who butters his bread. He is one of the ones with the butter. He butters his own bread.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: September 28, 2022 05:37AM

Putin just became the modern czar of Russia. The Russian Orthodox Church used similar rhetoric on the Russian troops when Napoleon invaded. The more things change the more they remain the same.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: September 28, 2022 05:39AM

Wars and rumors of wars and false prophets.

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Posted by: Kentisj ( )
Date: September 28, 2022 10:09AM

Not by works lest any man boast.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 28, 2022 11:19AM

Kentish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not by works lest any man boast.

Yeah, a most basic principle. He seems to have forgotten it. Or else perhaps that is not part of their belief system. Or it's not convenient at the moment.

I've never seen the attraction of throwing oneself into the flames for a future reward. Fortunately, so far, I've managed to avoid even facing the choice.

Luck in life is a thing. (Although my former pals the JWs shiver at such a 'satanic' idea as luck). But think about it: Luck is surely involved in where one is born, to whom, as well as the world affairs around and about during our sojourn on earth which may or may not be to our advantage.

Just ask the Lost Generation/s who could well wish to have been born in a different time, different place, other circumstances than those which determined the course, and duration, of their very lives:

https://www.thoughtco.com/the-lost-generation-4159302

"The term “Lost Generation” refers to the generation of people who reached adulthood during or immediately following World War I. In using the term “lost,” psychologists were referring to the “disoriented, wandering, directionless” feelings that haunted many survivors of what had been one of the most horrific wars in modern history.

"Unable or unwilling to come to grips with the horrors of warfare, many of the Lost Generation created impossibly unrealistic hopes for the future.

"By their very nature, all wars create “lost” survivors.

"While returning combat veterans have traditionally died of suicide and suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) at much higher rates than the general population, returning veterans of the Gulf War and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are at an even higher risk. According to a 2016 report from the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, an average of 20 of these veterans a day die from suicide.

"Could these “modern” wars be creating a modern “Lost Generation?” With mental wounds often more serious and far more difficult to treat than physical trauma, many combat veterans struggle to reintegrate into civilian society. A report from the RAND Corporation estimates that some 20% of returning veterans either have or will develop PTSD."

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: September 29, 2022 12:44AM

Anyone who has spent any time in a war zone has PTSD to a certain degree. You see, hear and smell horrible things you never forget. It’s easier to deal with when you are deployed. It’s when you come home when all that crap comes back and haunts you.

The people who died in action sometimes are the lucky ones, they don’t have to suffer the PTSD when they come home.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 29, 2022 01:58PM

PTSD seems inevitable, Rubicon. 20% seems like a low estimate. Maybe 20% are diagnosed, but many more are affected. How could you not be?

I can't even watch war movies. Can't stand the noise and destruction and loss and devastation.

I'm so fortunate not to have been around for any world wars or other conflicts that personally impacted my life. The history alone is disturbing. When there's no choice but to be involved it is obviously brutal, both during and after.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: September 28, 2022 12:10PM

Some of you May Die, But it's a Sacrifice I am Willing to Make

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hiKuxfcSrEU

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: September 28, 2022 12:31PM

Hey, Patriarch, here's an AK-47, go have fun on the front! Hope you're not weighed down in combat by your vestments and gold cross.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: September 29, 2022 12:31AM

The current Russian issue rifle is the AK-74 and if you are lucky you get the AK-74M (modernized) that has modern optics. An AK-47 beats nothing but they bounce a lot and you can have more accurate bursts with an AK-74. A modern red dot optic gives you an advantage as well. I actually JB welded one to the top of a MP5 I used in Iraq.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: September 29, 2022 12:37AM

Even top military strategists are amazed at how poorly the Russian military has performed in Ukraine. They are using outdated Soviet tactics that really haven’t evolved since World War II. But Putin has made himself dictator for life. It will be very difficult to overthrow him. Because his military sucks at conventional warfare it’s why he’s making nuclear threats. Very dangerous to push him into a corner.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: September 29, 2022 10:08PM

and also the famous saying about all plans being worthless after the shooting starts.

Russia is an authoritarian dictatorship that still uses Soviet tactics. Only "yes" men get promoted under that kind of system. No one can tell Putin what he wants to hear as they might wind up having a long walk on a short pier or some polonium in their morning tea. Ground truth doesn't matter when soldiers can't act on their own initiative. The Russians wind up carrying out orders that are wrong or out of date as a result.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 29, 2022 10:16PM

Russia's tactics have changed massively since World War Two. That's overstatement.

But they haven't changed since the wars in Chechnya and Georgia, and that is almost as shocking. Perhaps Russian military doctrine has been too fixated on the use of tactical nuclear weapons on the conventional battlefield and consequently neglected the importance of conventional conventional warfare.

Now push comes to shove.

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: September 30, 2022 03:41AM

Plus, putin has been sure NOT to promote the best and brightest to the top levels. It's one way he has maintained power. Shoigu is a civil engineer. This is a very good article on the subject.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/07/20/why-russia-keeps-losing-generals-ukraine/

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: October 04, 2022 07:23AM


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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: October 04, 2022 09:08PM

You are welcome. Interesting developments this week. Keep an eye on Ramzan Kadyrov. Some are starting to wonder where the hell all their tax money went. I am afraid if I say more CZ will spank me lol.

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Posted by: Ben Nevis ( )
Date: September 29, 2022 04:28PM

Kirill is a former Communist collaborator... probably ex-KGB like Putin too. So what do you expect?

He also campaigned for the Jehovah's Witnesses to be banned in Russia probably, because they won't agree with the government on everything like he does.

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: October 04, 2022 09:04PM

Ben Nevis, he doesn't like the JWs, mormons or anyone else that he can't control and RULE. He is furious that so many are leaving the ROC and aligning with other groups.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 29, 2022 11:14PM

Kirill showed up as a clue on Jeopardy tonight.

The correct response to the question - something to the effect of - What is his title is, of course: "Patriarch".


Softball question. (But of course Jeopardy doesn't get political). Similar to RfM. :)




(Edited a thousand times for punctuation - sheesh)



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2022 11:17PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: blindguy ( )
Date: September 30, 2022 12:41AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0JMCaKwOUY

From the chorus:
"Sky pilot.
Sky Pilot.
How high can you fly?
You'll never, never, never! reach the sky."

(The song was written about Vietnam war chaplins, but I think most of the lyrics can apply to this creepy patriarch, too).

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Posted by: Villager ( )
Date: October 04, 2022 02:02AM

This is a copy, cut and paste in describing the SECOND ANOINTING. given to couples in the LDS temple. If someone kills FOR THE LORD---- he is covered too.

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