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Posted by: unconventional ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 01:25AM

Sure, it can be difficult to go and may cost you, but what about your personal integrity?

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 01:33AM

Everyone’s situation is different. Judge nor.

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Posted by: unconventional ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 01:37AM

Of course. No judgment, just posing the essential question that everyone who knows better ultimately faces.

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Posted by: unconventional ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 01:39AM

Some people sacrifice their integrity through rationalizations.

That is tragic.

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Posted by: unconventional ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 12:33PM

Glad to see this generated some discussion

All I know is there are many people out there who are in a living hell because they can’t get the courage to do what they know they need to do.

I feel for them.

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Posted by: unconventional ( )
Date: December 04, 2022 01:09AM

So many feel this pain.

I have some personal experience with this.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 01:51AM

Situations can be complex in a high-demand religion, and involve marriages, families, long time friendships and community ties, and employment. Plus, mentally detaching from any faith can be a long, involved process.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 08:43AM

  

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 07:36PM

Knowing what Mormon women want is a big advantage in terms of predictability. If you can play the game, it's basically on tap.

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Posted by: unconventional ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 10:33PM

Yes, and other things like keeping a job, house, car, comfy lifestyle.

For such things, integrity often takes a backseat.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 11:22PM

The only alternative is often divorce, which with a few kids and a mortgage is not a viable option.

The church gives you one track and one train, Casey Jones.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: December 04, 2022 12:04PM

Not to mention keeping your sanity. I love how (and I was one of them) people come here with their yardsticks and start beating others. I often wonder if they ever changed their minds?

I did.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 10:51AM

I take your point, but, is there only one set of actions that defines personal integrity?

Some sacrifice is over-rated. There is always more than one strategy to employ in the game--- or, the war. And, how do you know if you chose the right one until it's all over and history has it's way with you?


Some things are nobody's business but your own. Playing your cards close to the chest for a while before laying them on the table does have it's advantages and may give the time needed to be sure of decisions that may affect the rest of your life.


All this to say that there is more than one way to skin a . . . mango?

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Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 11:46AM

"I take your point, but, is there only one set of actions that defines personal integrity?"

COMMENT: Well, it would seem that the bare minimum of personal integrity would be to act in accordance with what one subjectively knows or believes to be what is morally right. I would think that if one knows or believes that Mormonism is a fraud, and harmful to oneself and one's family (not to mention countless others), then the morally prescribed action it would seem--by one's own judgment--would be to remove oneself from such an organization. Failure to so act would, it seems, be cowardice, again by one's own moral judgment.
________________________________________

"Some sacrifice is over-rated. There is always more than one strategy to employ in the game--- or, the war. And, how do you know if you chose the right one until it's all over and history has it's way with you?"

COMMENT: This seems equivalent to saying: "Some moral requirements are over-rated." If, in fact, in one's own mind, there is a 'strategy' that morally supersedes the moral requirement to distance oneself from a harmful and fraudulent organization, then so be it. However, I would think that such a strategy--to avoid being just a rather blatant rationalization--would require being able to articulate the moral outcomes that such a strategy was intending to promote; and why such outcomes are likely to occur; and why they are morally worth the harm done to oneself and family by staying connected to the fraudulent and harmful organization. Good luck with that. In my view it seems like nothing more than a myth created to avoid the 'sacrifice' that moral decision-making inherently requires.
__________________________________________

"Some things are nobody's business but your own. Playing your cards close to the chest for a while before laying them on the table does have its advantages and may give the time needed to be sure of decisions that may affect the rest of your life."

COMMENT: Yes, but what really is 'your own business?' To act morally and confidently by the dictates of your own moral judgment? Or to worry about the consequences that might impact "the rest of your life" if you manage to do what you know is right? And take all the time you want. Moral decision-making can wait, I guess. But the harm continues while you languish in this confused state of self-justifying moral limbo.
_____________________________________

All this to say that there is more than one way to skin a . . . mango?

COMMENT: Yes, the ultimate justification.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 11:53AM

The ultimate justification is always knowing you are the "correctest" person in the group, and then telling people about it.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 12:08PM

Grasping at straws to be the most correct person on earth. Yea, even as correct as the BoM--the other most correct thing on earth.

I getting off by tearing apart the only contribution you have?

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 12:10PM

It appears Henry that you have spent your entire life trying to make up for the fact that no one wanted you on the debate team in high school. Or you are re-living that glory if you were on it.

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Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 01:09PM

"It appears Henry that you have spent your entire life trying to make up for the fact that no one wanted you on the debate team in high school. Or you are re-living that glory if you were on it."

COMMENT: You're right, I did not make the debate team in high school. In fact, my high school guidance counselor advised me that I did not have sufficient aptitude to attend college, much less be on any debate team. My parents offered similar encouragement.

Nonetheless, I did eventually manage to kick my drug habits, and generate enough self-esteem to make it through college, and eventually law school and a long legal career. And now, finally, 50 plus years after high school, I believe my knowledge and thinking skills are O.K., although some people here might disagree, yourself included.

In any event, something tells me--notwithstanding all of your name-calling and put-downs--that if you had a legal problem in San Diego--the jurisdiction where I live--you would probably want me on your side. But then, maybe not.

I guess context is everything, as they say.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 12:14PM

Black and white thinking is a Mormon trait.

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Posted by: Honest TB[long] ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 11:12AM

Thanks to the beloved Correlation program my brain was hardwired to believe that the definition of Integrity is to be Obedient to the Brethren. My brain was also hardwired to not allow myself to seriously consider any alternatives to this definition and to immediately consider such alternatives as being the work of that cunning Lucifer.

If any of you want to have a brain that thinks like this too then I encourage you to get your brain thoroughly washed and baptized by immersion through the Correlation program of the Church. Then you will be able to always think to obey the Brethren and it'll cause you to become a peculiar person.

For starts, you'll learn to define many terms very simply.

What does it mean to be honest? It means to be strictly obedient to the Brethren once you get started on making covenants to the Church.

For example, at the same time I gained a powerful testimony of the cheerios at Church in Nursery I spent the next several years being pumped full of enthusiasm to get baptized. By the time I turned 8 I was so enthusiastic and excited to get baptized. Part of the deal for me to get to do this was that I needed to promise to be obedient the rest of my life. So, anytime some Church leader ever tries to shove manure in my face I get to remember "oh yes, I was baptized, so no complaints from me about the manure being shoved in my face and in fact I shall thank my wonderful leaders for doing this as my duty is to obey and not ask questions". Well obviously I must have been super mature in the eyes of the leaders to be trusted to make such an important lifelong commitment at this very mature age of 8. So, that's what happened. And thus I have to obey, not ever think of asking questions, and just endure all the manure they shove in my face & do so with happiness, joy, and gratitude.

Well, I also have to spread the message, especially to warn my neighbors. So, I gotta go now and go yell at all my neighbors that they need to join my Church so they can have brains like mine. All of you can too have brains like mine if you'll join and be good little sheep.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 02:14PM

That's very good :-D

Nice to see you posting again. As a nevermo, I've always found correlation surprisingly Stalinist as a concept ;-)

"when the leaders have spoken, the thinking has been done..."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2022 02:15PM by Soft Machine.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 07:15PM

You never did time in Mormonism?

Then how can you possibly be screwed up enough to hang out here?

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: December 04, 2022 06:04AM

I like exmos - or at least the ones here :-D

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Posted by: Honest TB[long] ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 07:35PM

When the Brethren have spoken, the thinking has just begun.

Word Definition: Thinking = Analysis on ways to be much more obedient to the Church Leaders

Some other word definitions:

Honest = being 100% in keeping the promise to be comoletely obedient to Church members

Truth = Anything the Brethren say


So, when I say that I'm thinking about being honestly truthful then you will understand what I mean :)


Now about Brother Stalin (assuming his temple work has been done like was done for Brother Hitler) its amazing how many tens of millions he helped escape the Soviet Union and other places on Earth early to go to Spirit Prison to hear the gospel message from Joseph Smith and others. However, most of them are still stuck in ther Spirit Prison cells due to us lazybum members not getting their temple work done. Oh my the guilt we get to feel - guilt guilt guilt for being so slothful.

Well maybe I cam overcome that guilt by going and yelling at a bunch of people that they should get getting washing by immersion done on their brains through the beloved Correlation program so they too can be hardwired to be obedient on everything and learn to define words like I've done.

So, you are a nevermo? Hmmmm sounds like you never got the chance to gain a powerful testimony of the Cheerios in Nursery, then gain a testimony that you can become a Sunbeam for Jesus, and on and on as you could've gotten a washing by immersion of your brain through the beloved Correlation program to learn to think 100% obedience.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 11:18AM

Does it take more integrity to allow a spouse who needs it to stay in their faith bubble? Does it take more integrity to devastate an older person with the fact they wasted their entire life in a cult? Or does it take more integrity for one to not rush in and destroy others just so they feel good about being honest?

I agree when possible the most integrity involves packing up and repudiating something you know is wrong. However, I think you have to be sensitive about how to navigate out so that others can be informed and not over react. My husband knew the church was BS and waited 10 years for me to slowly catch on. If he had not been patient, as a believer I would have divorced him and viewed him as an evil apostate. Instead, he pointed out things that slowly made me see. I think that took integrity on his part too.

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Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 12:10PM

Does it take more integrity to allow a spouse who needs it to stay in their faith bubble?

COMMENT: Well, that would seem to be ultimately the spouse's decision, although one might question what paternalistic interests "who needs it" is intended to protect.
_______________________________________

Does it take more integrity to devastate an older person with the fact they wasted their entire life in a cult? Or does it take more integrity for one to not rush in and destroy others just so they feel good about being honest?

COMMENT: I 'devastated' my aged mother by my own apostacy. And when she asked me for an explanation, I kindly gave it to her. I did not enjoy her pain, or wallow in my 'honesty.' Unfortunately, our moral decisions regarding Mormonism do have adverse consequences to others. But please don't tell me that such consequences are the heart of the matter, or even part of the moral equation. The heart of the matter is Mormonism, and the harm it does. Period! And *that* harm includes the harm suffered by those TBMs who experience emotional pain when family members discover the truth of Mormonism. That pain is on Mormonism; it is not on us!
_______________________________________

"I agree when possible the most integrity involves packing up and repudiating something you know is wrong."

COMMENT: Yes. That seems to be the bottom line!
___________________________________________

However, I think you have to be sensitive about how to navigate out so that others can be informed and not over react. My husband knew the church was BS and waited 10 years for me to slowly catch on. If he had not been patient, as a believer I would have divorced him and viewed him as an evil apostate. Instead, he pointed out things that slowly made me see. I think that took integrity on his part too.

COMMENT: I agree with you here. One's own conclusions as to Mormonism require one's own moral responses. But that says nothing about how we should treat and respect others, including having patience with their own views.

That said, we should never (in my view) get confused about what we view as morally required for ourselves independent of how others might respond. Assuming one believes that Mormonism is a fraud and harmful, the likely response of others--including family members--does not change the moral obligation to act in accordance with what one knows is right.

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Posted by: sunbeep ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 12:25PM

I stayed in until my wife passed away. She was the spear point that kept me a dutiful member. Now there was nobody to make sure I attended and followed the mo-rules.

Around this time I discovered the Postmo website and a whole new window of discovery opened up. I wanted to cut those mormy ties and resign, but a hefty inheritance hung in the balance from a True Blue parental figure. So, I coasted along living a dual religious life.

Once I became free to follow my heart without any serious repercussions from judgemental people, I resigned. My kids are all still in but at various levels of activity. Some family members gave me the honorable label of Apostate and some were accepting of my choices.

In answer to your question, I stayed in because of family issues until I didn't.

Now, I don't give a rat's sitting knob what anyone thinks. I'm free to be me and I'm okay with that. Anyone up for a cup of coffee?

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 12:48PM

"Now, I don't give a rat's sitting knob what anyone thinks. "

That says it all. Toasting you with my coffee.



But . . . what is a "rat's sitting knob" and how is it different to a standing one? I missed that one on the play ground.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 02:18PM

Presumably sitting as in, shall we say, a "state of non-tumescence"... So even smaller...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2022 02:18PM by Soft Machine.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 01:12PM

I stayed in for a year after becoming a complete non-believer because I was a year away from graduating from BYU. The compromise to my integrity was not all that tragic.

As soon as I graduated, I never set foot in an LDS church again except for a few funerals.

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 01:21PM

It's okay to eat peanut butter sandwich once in a while, even if pb is not good for you.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 03:08PM

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”
Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Tribalism is a powerful opiate.
Kicking the habit is easier said than done.
We, the rare few, who did manage to kick the habit, should be grateful we got our power back from the charlatans who stole it from us.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 07:06PM

The question you should have asked is whether your personal integrity is more important than your personal relationships.

I don't judge Mormons who chose Celestial Temples over Ivory Towers when they have love on the line.

Modern society is so far from the natural man that God has no more enemies. We choose to do things against our better natures daily. The religion is evil in my mind but the people dealing with it aren't in positions to deal with it well.

If you can walk away scar free with personal integrity you are one of the very elect.

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Posted by: Silence is Golden ( )
Date: December 05, 2022 02:20PM

I agree. For me, growing up in the church, going on a mission, and having it sewn into the fabric of your life really intertwines the culture.

Each must choose to stay, leave, or hover somewhere in the middle or fringe. It is all based upon the merits of what is assumed will happen. I do not judge the decision of any, for it is they that will deal with the end result.

There is no such thing as a free lunch, and hind sight is always 20\20.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 05, 2022 03:42PM

Spot on.

Integrity is easy if you have only one ethical variable to consider--for example, the relationship with the church. But people simultaneously face many moral variables, many moral obligations, including spouses, children, and all sorts of other things. Is murder wrong or right? Doesn't that depend on whether the victim is the elderly man down the street or Joseph Stalin?

Would it be appropriate to stop attending church or to resign therefrom if doing so severely harmed your spouse? If it destroyed your young children's social networks in your rural Mormon town and thereby damaged them for life?

The words "integrity" and "integration" stem from the same Latin root: to be whole or complete. In other words, it's about how a person manages the whole set of mutually contradictory ethical and moral problems he confronts. Integrity requires the balancing and fulfillment of a range of obligations, so the proper "answer" must be peculiar to the individual.

The person with true integrity may appear immoral to everyone else but doesn't give a damn.

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Posted by: unconventional ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 10:25PM

Many who live the charade long after they understand it for what it is, feel like their life is a a sham, and that they are a complete phony.

No amount of distraction can free them of that all enveloping feeling.

The mainstream superficial life of consumerism only provides a temporary escape.

Living with personal integrity is everything.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2022 02:01AM by unconventional.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: December 03, 2022 10:58PM

A strong case can be made that coming in way ahead of personal integrity, in terms of living, are

Oxygen
Food
Shelter
Love/attention


I believe I get what you’re driving at but it seems to be coming across with too much stridency, like you want to be nominated for this year’s Nobel Prize in personal integrity.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: December 04, 2022 08:06PM

We are all complete phonies. Either the socially acceptable kind or the self-determined kind. We are socially-constructed beings with values based on a thin skeleton of science supporting a body of pure imagination.

It feels good to abandon Mormonism, but we are all still in Plato's cave. Sometimes the best you can do is make yourself at home.

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Posted by: blackcoatsdaughter ( )
Date: December 05, 2022 10:00AM

I can understand this and it helps to give context to the OP question.

You are not a bad person to choose personal relief from that sensation of fraudulent identity, over the pain and sorrow of others. You are not the one hurting them by telling them your personal truth and being open and you don't have to feel responsible for what the church has done to their minds. You don't owe anyone o stay in your life if they can't handle or meet the amount of you that you're willing to share in your life, and you don't have to feel an inch of bad if they leave because of it.

Also

You are not a bad person to sacrifice some honesty to preserve your relationships and spare your loved ones the pain of losing you or confronting their own existential crisis. You are not responsible for setting everyone you know free, even if that were within your ability to do(most of the time, it is not). You don't actually owe anyone the honesty of knowing all your secrets and all your vulnerable parts. And deep, thoughtful, and enriching connections can still be made with others even if they don't have access to absolutely everything.

Both are valid. Both are examples of strength in trying to navigate our ways out of this traumatic experience we've all lived through. The church destroys families.

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Posted by: PHIL ( )
Date: December 04, 2022 07:29AM

Ok. Without doing due diligence and being a legal adult you marry a Molly mormon in the temple making a covenant to be a Peter Priesthood and then one day you tell Molly Mormon it's all a crock and your quitting.
You then come on here and pose as a victim because your wife now decides to ditch you. What is Integrity?

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: December 04, 2022 12:06PM

Integrity is being on the right team.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: December 04, 2022 08:52PM

The church digs the pit, not the one who falls in it.

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Posted by: squirrely ( )
Date: December 04, 2022 01:15PM

It just takes time. You can't just suddenly come out and says 'I'm out" to your family etc. You also don't need to make it a big show. You can live your life and just not bring it up among family or whatever.
"
I do agree though that it digs at your "soul" when you know the truth. Once you accept the truth it gets you our of Plato's Cave and restores some of your "soul."

Generally, in my view, the older you are the less soul you have the m harder it is to change. Denial runs deep.

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Posted by: unconventional ( )
Date: December 05, 2022 12:34PM

Yes, it’s harder to change the older you get.

Simple, straightforward action is the best way.

Muddying the water is not.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: December 05, 2022 12:52PM

Making The Cat look better!

I’m impressed!


I’m not really serious. I don’t have that kind of personal integrity.

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Posted by: Humberto ( )
Date: December 04, 2022 04:37PM

What do you mean by integrity? You seem to be associating it with some sort of perfect honesty. But integrity is far less binary than honesty is. In fact, it's easy to see how one can be integrously dishonest. Would Miep Geis have compromised her integrity by lying about what was behind the bookcase? I think her integrity would require her to lie.

In every infinitesimally small moment of our ultimately finite lives, we have an incomprehensible number of actions to chose from, the vast majority of which go unrecognized. An integrous person does the best they can under these infinitely complicated circumstances.

I can't assume that another's nuanced and personal approach to a faith transition is in any way a compromise to their integrity.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 04, 2022 05:12PM

+1

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: December 05, 2022 01:18PM

+1

Your reference to "perfect honesty". Says a lot.

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Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: December 05, 2022 02:31PM

"In every infinitesimally small moment of our ultimately finite lives, we have an incomprehensible number of actions to chose from, the vast majority of which go unrecognized. An integrous person does the best they can under these infinitely complicated circumstances."

COMMENT: First, the only alternative actions that are morally relevant in any given decision context are those that are known and recognized by the actor as within his or her control. There are not an 'incomprehensible number of actions to choose from," as you suggest. In other words, one cannot escape the morality of one's actions by falling back on the claim that since actions and circumstances are overly complicated, one can and should simply do what they want to do. Sure, what is required morally may indeed be difficult to ascertain at times, but it is not because we are overwhelmed by choices. Rather, it is because the choices we do have, and recognize as such, are difficult in conjunction with what is easier, or what we might otherwise prefer to do.

Second, to suggest that all integrity requires is that a person "do the best they can," completely undermines all moral accountability from human actions by inviting moral relativism. Arguably, everyone can be said to be doing "the best they can," including the white supremist, current and past Mormon leaders, and even genocidal political figures, like Hitler. What matters in a moral context (if indeed we accept morality and are not amoral) is not whether one *subjectively* did the best they could, but whether such person did what was *objectively* morally 'right' given the knowledge and choices that they had in context with some moral standard(s) or principle(s) that are generally accepted and acknowledged.
__________________________________________

I can't assume that another's nuanced and personal approach to a faith transition is in any way a compromise to their integrity.

COMMENT: Can you assume that Joseph Smith's approach to his 'faith transition' compromised *his* integrity? Or how about the statements and writings of current Church leaders? We are able to make moral judgments, and do in fact make them, only because we *do* routinely make such assumptions, and thus *do* routinely apply moral judgments to a person's integrity.

If a Mormon (1) has found Mormonism to be fraudulent and harmful, and (2) believes as a general rule that one should distance oneself from fraudulent and harmful organizations, then it would seem to imply a burden to distance themselves from Mormonism, or to otherwise honestly assess why in their given circumstances morality requires a different choice. Merely citing a lack of convenience; or fear of repercussions, or concern about hurt feelings, sounds in general more like a convenient excuse, than a legitimate moral exception to the standard one has already acknowledged. But then one can never be sure of another's circumstances and motivations, unless they provide such information.

As the cliche says, "Nobody's perfect." Yet, we can acknowledge imperfection in ourselves and others, without throwing out the moral law itself, as you have inadvertently done here. Moral judgments are hard and dangerous and need to be made carefully. But still, it would seem that we need to retain the ability to say that some actions of others are morally wrong--absent extenuating circumstances. In that spirit, I am willing to say that a Mormon discovering that Mormonism is fraudulent and harmful is morally obligated to distance themselves from Mormonism--unless they have a morally sufficient reason (and not just a lame justification) to do otherwise. And if they don't, then by their own standards their integrity is compromised. But, again, nobody's perfect.

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: December 05, 2022 03:40PM

asking for Inspector Callahan

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