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Posted by: vahn421 ( )
Date: March 01, 2023 07:10PM

Can anyone link me to any documents that show Joseph Smith discussing polygamous affairs in his own handwriting? It has come to my attention that virtually ALL of the evidence we have of Smith practicing polygamy is word-of-mouth, and even some forged documentations. After reading a few books, I can't believe I'm convinced that it's possible Brigham Young retconned polygamy into the Mormon narrative.

So I'm turning to the community to link me to anything that is actually in Smith's own handwriting (letters to others, etc), that proves he was thinking about it. So far, the only *public* writings I can find regarding Smith discussing polygamy is his vehement condemnation of it.

Thanks in advance!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2023 07:10PM by vahn421.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 01, 2023 07:17PM

I doubt he committed much to writing. He generally left that to others, particularly late in his career. Such reticence is not unusual for leaders doing horrible things--witness Hitler and Stalin.

But do you really need his handwriting? Are not the accounts of his peers, both pro- and anti-, sufficieent? And what about Joseph's wives' accounts in Sacred Loneliness and the Temple Lot depositions?

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Posted by: vahn421 ( )
Date: March 01, 2023 07:38PM

Hi Lot's Wife. Long time no talk.

I'm actually in the process of meticulously combing through every piece of evidence we have of this. It would take to long to write out, but I've become VERY convinced Brigham Young was evil and working with the masons to steal the church from Joseph. I'm trying to deduce just how much church history he altered.

The church lies all the time for the greater good. "Lying for the Lord" is what we know it as. It's not hard for me to believe at all that Brigham Young and other church leaders coerced many people into giving fake affidavits about Smith practicing polygamy.

3 things shock me as I move forward with my research.

#1: Smith, Hyrum and Emma all publicly denounced polygamy with a form of scathing retribution. Like, it's actually startling how powerful of a rebuke they give.

#2:Virtually all contemporary evidence of Smith practicing polygamy is through word-of-mouth after the saints came to Utah. (As in, people gave their testimony. They didn't have any documentation to SHOW that Smith did indeed practice.)

#3: Emma denied polygamy her entire life. Her own son interviewed her intimately and asked very intuitive questions (you could tell the two of them were close), and she still denied it. As I do more research into the character of Brigham Young and Emma, it becomes clear to me that Brigham Young would be 1,000 times more likely to lie than Emma, and ONE of them IS a liar.

I'm legitimately wondering if Young bought people off to make Joseph appear as if he was practicing polygamy so he could justify it. Sooooo many other things changed for the church once Young got ahold of the saints.

I will go through every account piece by piece to when and where testimonies were given.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2023 07:40PM by vahn421.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 01, 2023 08:11PM

It's nice to see you again, too.

I'll say up front that I think you are wrong. But I look forward to seeing what you unearth and, if appropriate, changing my mind.


--------------------
> . . . I've become VERY convinced Brigham Young was evil. . . and [wonder] just how much church history he altered.

No argument on either score. He had Lucy Mack Smith's biography of her son revised.

Of course keeping such a thing secret is difficult, and participants in the editorial process later identified the main points BY wanted to alter. What this teaches us is the difficulty of maintaining a major conspiracy over a few years let alone decades.


-------------------
> It's
> not hard for me to believe at all that Brigham
> Young and other church leaders coerced many people
> into giving fake affidavits about Smith practicing
> polygamy.

That is certainly possible. But I don't think Helen Mar Kimball and Eliza Snow, in particular, were ever willing to adjust their statements under pressure. If that is correct, then at least some of the affidavits were legitimate.


------------------
> #1: Smith, Hyrum and Emma all publicly denounced
> polygamy with a form of scathing retribution.
> Like, it's actually startling how powerful of a
> rebuke they give.

That fact can be read both ways. As Shakespeare noted, extreme denials often indicate the truth of that which is denied. In his words, "the lady doth protest too much, methinks."


------------------
> #2:Virtually all contemporary evidence of Smith
> practicing polygamy is through word-of-mouth after
> the saints came to Utah.

Are you rejecting Thomas Marsh's statements and the contents of the Nauvoo Expositor that was edited by, I believe, John Bennett? What about Sarah Pratt's public accusations? What about the wife of the other apostle, the one who along with Orson Pratt was kicked out of the Q12 for accusing JS of propositioning his wife?


----------------
> #3: Emma denied polygamy her entire life. Her own
> son interviewed her intimately and asked very
> intuitive questions (you could tell the two of
> them were close), and she still denied it.

She had compelling reason to deny it. There are few things more humiliating for a woman than admitting her husband cheated on her, and the validity of the RLDS church that her son now led also depended on that denial.

Also, do you reject the consensus that D&C 132 was talking about William Law as a potential second husband for Emma when God ordered her not to exercise the privilege JS had promised her?


-------------------
> As I do
> more research into the character of Brigham Young
> and Emma, it becomes clear to me that Brigham
> Young would be 1,000 times more likely to lie than
> Emma, and ONE of them IS a liar.

I think both of them were liars. Emma knew, for instance, that Joseph did not receive the plates from an angel that dark night when she accompanied him to the Hill Cumorah; and she participated in the fabrication of the BoM.


-----------------
> I'm legitimately wondering if Young bought people
> off to make Joseph appear as if he was practicing
> polygamy so he could justify it.

I think the logic runs the other way. Recall Joseph Stalin, who after Lenin's death established himself as the rightful successor by editing Lenin's publications--effectively out-Lenin-ing Lenin.

By the same token, BY and HCK took JS's single most important doctrinal and practical innovation and declared them fearlessly to the world. The immediate effect was to force insiders who knew of polygamy either to denounce the prophet and his practice or to agree that BY was honoring JS's legacy. BY made polygamy a litmus test for any potential successor and thereby put himself at the top of the pack.


------------------
> I will go through every account piece by piece to
> when and where testimonies were given.

I look forward to learning what you discover.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2023 08:14PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: vahn421 ( )
Date: March 01, 2023 08:29PM

I'll get back to all your questions later, but for now, what's the best piece of evidence regarding Eliza R Snow? It's always less of a waste of time to start with the strongest evidence against an idea.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 01, 2023 09:06PM

Eliza Snow is a difficult case in some ways. During JS's life she denied polygamy quite assertively, but after he died she acknowledged that she had been his plural wife and that the marriage had been sexual. My feeling that she is credible is rooted in her character over the rest of her life and the consistency of her accounts, including after BY had died.

For sources, BYU Studies carried a piece on her some years ago. That would probably be worth looking up. Also, the hymns and poetry she wrote are rooted in the doctrines of plural marriage and King Follett.

Regarding good general sources, have you looked at Compton's Mysteries of Godliness? That's an excellent volume. There's also Nauvoo Polygamy, which you may know. Even better, perhaps is Compton's In Sacred Loneliness and--directly on point--the consecutive In Sacred Loneliness: Documents. That should give you access to writings that very few people know exist.

Happy hunting!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 03, 2023 03:16AM

Hah! That's the one I meant.

Thanks.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: March 04, 2023 05:38AM

The Smith family certainly were wary of Brigham Young. I don’t think they trusted him. The Quorum of the Twelve had no administrative authority where the church was established. They were missionaries who were given the task to run missions in areas the church was not established. The administrative head of the church was the first presidency.

So when Brigham Young made the claim the Quorum of the Twelve were to run the church it would be like the missionary department saying they were going to take over.

Emma supported Sidney Rigdon because he was in the first presidency. Was Brigham leading a coup against Joseph? Who knows but the distrust of the Smith family and him being so bold as to say the Q12 were in charge with him as president shows the aggressive nature of the man.

Never underestimate charisma. Joseph Smith had it and so did Brigham. Brigham was very skilled at bringing new people into the church. It’s why Joseph had him in charge of the missionary efforts. Brigham used his gifts to convince the majority of the church to follow him and he was very aggressive at changing things.

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Posted by: ziller ( )
Date: March 01, 2023 07:43PM

vahn421 knows what is up ~

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 01, 2023 08:12PM

You don't think Joseph Smith practiced polygamy?

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Posted by: vahn421 ( )
Date: March 01, 2023 08:34PM

I think it's quite possible he didn't and was framed for it by Brigham young and the masons using centuries of expertise to doctor history, yes.

Where are Joseph's kids? He had NINE with Emma. Man was fertile. That many wives and not one illegitimate child? I smell BS, and that's only the beginning.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: March 01, 2023 08:57PM

Yeah, that's the thing. The usual answer is Dr Bennett and his alleged abortions. But how could he have gotten them all? Not a single failed abortion? No runaways? We're talking mothers and their babies. It's not plausible a Dr Bennett could clean up all of Joseph's stray DNA.

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: March 02, 2023 02:07AM

Eliza was pregnant with Joseph's child before being pushed down a flight of stairs by that "elect lady" thus killing the child.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: March 04, 2023 05:49AM

Birth control wasn’t great in those days. If Joseph was slamming the salami as claimed there would be some pregnancies. Also Emma was a tough lady. She wouldn’t tolerate Joseph putting a bar in the house she wouldn’t tolerate polygamy.

Maybe other church members were sleeping around and using gospel nonsense to justify it. I think the endowment and plural marriage had more to do with Brigham Young and his peers than Joseph. People often project their own faults on the people they attack.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: March 02, 2023 12:06AM

A firsthand account of early Mormonism and polygamy


https://archive.org/details/fifteenyearsamon00greerich

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: March 02, 2023 04:59AM

Wow, Anybody, that is one heck of a document, giving a very interesting view of early mormonism, including the crimes committed in its name. Frighteningly vivid, too.

Thanks.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: March 02, 2023 08:05AM

Another good one is "Prophet Of The Nineteenth Century."

A firsthand account from an Anglican clergyman who went from England to Nauvoo to see Joseph Smith for himself.

https://archive.org/details/prophetnineteen00caswgoog

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: March 02, 2023 02:03AM

Might I suggest "Mormon Midwife the 1846-1888 Diaries of Patty Bartlett Sessions"

There is a photograph page 277 of a page of her diary stating she was sealed to Joseph Smith by Willard Richards March 9 1842 in Newel K Whitney's chamber Nauvoo for time and all eternity" her daughter Sylvia was in attendance.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 02, 2023 03:59AM

Excellent.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: March 04, 2023 06:37AM

Sealings in the early church were NOT marriages. I think this is where a lot of confusion comes from. Just because you were sealed to someone didn’t mean you were married and could sleep with them. You can’t look at the church at the time of Joseph Smith through the lenses of the modern church. It’s apples and oranges.

The church became a whole different thing under Brigham Young. The church structure was entirely different. Under Brigham a sealing did become a marriage and more than one woman could be sealed to one man. It’s still that way in the temple in the modern church.

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Posted by: blindguy ( )
Date: March 02, 2023 07:57AM

...the website

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org

you will find that the vast majority of his plural marriages occurred within the last four years of his life and that some of those marriages did produce offspring. That said, given the number of wives Joseph Smith actually had, I doubt that even a man with his virility could have produced a multitude of offspring in the (relatively) short time he was married to them.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 02, 2023 05:50PM

> I doubt that even a man with his
> virility could have produced a
> multitude of offspring in the
> (relatively) short time he was
> married to them.


Amen!  I mean, c'mon!  It's not like he was a Mexican!!  Sheesh!!

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: March 02, 2023 11:59AM

There is no way to know for sure if one of the kids from these women who were already married "looked different" than her other kids with her main husband, IMO.

There was no DNA checking up on everyone back then. (As an aside, that's why doing genealogy following the paternal line is not reliable, IMO.)

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: March 04, 2023 06:42AM

Exactly. Show me the certified DNA evidence. Also how do you keep all those affairs and hanky panky a secret in small community where you are the center of attention?

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Posted by: OP ( )
Date: March 02, 2023 03:51PM

He had it with any two women you could imagine

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: March 02, 2023 06:51PM

There's not real proof Joseph Smith was practicing polygamy. So far no illegitimate children can be linked to him. His son Joseph Smith III did an extensive investigation into it and didn't find any evidence Joseph Smith was a polygamist. The Smith family didn't follow Brigham Young and the religion they later became part of never practiced polygamy.

There seems to have been a split in the church before Joseph Smith's murder. The Quorum of the Twelve seemed to have been at odds with the First Presidency on some things. Some even speculate Brigham Young was running a coup on Joseph.

Bottom line we just don't know. History is always biased along the lines of who's telling the story. His-Story as they say. Joseph had lot's of enemies inside and outside the church. One thing for sure, he was hated by many.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: March 02, 2023 07:02PM

Personally I lean to Brigham Young being the father or polygamy in the church. I think he was the father of the whole modern temple ceremony and not Joseph Smith. Joseph became a third degree mason and seemed to have been toying with bringing some masonic rituals into the church. Not much known about exactly what he was doing.

The endowment really took off after Joseph was gone and they started doing washing and anointings and endowments in the upper floor of the Nauvoo temple. Temple Sealings seem to be where the plural marriage started.

Sealings were not well defined when Joseph ran things. People wanted to be sealed to each other kind as a feel good measure they would be with each other in the next life. Men were sealed to men. Children to their parents. Spouses. Many people both men and women wanted to be sealed to the prophet. It's not clear if some of these sealings were marriages.

The Book of Mormon that Joseph produced is an anti-polygamy book. It even goes as far to say that King David and King Solomon were in the wrong for being polygamist.

I think Brigham was the king salami more than Joseph was.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 02, 2023 07:04PM

So all those women were lying about their marriages to JS?

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: March 04, 2023 06:48AM

Sealings weren’t marriages in those days. Joseph was the prophet. Lot’s of people wanted to be sealed to him. All it meant was you would be together in the next life. Just like children being sealed to parents. It’s religious comfort food. Like a blessing. People love these silly things. You can’t look at the pre-Brigham church through the same lens. It would be like saying the Kirkland temple is like a modern temple. Very little is similar.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 02, 2023 07:13PM

I don't think TBMs are uptight about the issue of any polygamous progeny of JoJu; they'd naturally be fine with it, given that it was him, the second most important man in the past two centuries...

Having authored Sec. 132, no one really doubts that JoJu was a fan of polygamy.  And while none of us were in the appropriate bedrooms, it's quite likely that as members of a jury, two-thirds of us would vote 'guilty' in re JoJu, the humper.

According to Wikipedia, 12 individuals have been identified as "Kids of Joseph Smith." Wikipedia goes on to say:

"As of 2007, there were at least twelve early Latter Day Saints who, based on historical documents and circumstantial evidence, had been identified as potential Smith offspring stemming from plural marriages.

"In 2005 and 2007 studies, a geneticist with the Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation stated that they had shown 'with 99.9 percent accuracy' that five of these individuals were in fact NOT Smith descendants . . .

"The remaining seven have yet to be conclusively tested, including Josephine Lyon, for whom current DNA testing using mitochondrial DNA cannot provide conclusive evidence either way. Lyon's mother, Sylvia Sessions Lyon, left her daughter a deathbed affidavit telling her she was Smith's daughter."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_polygamy


Those of us who believe, or want to believe, that JoJu was a lying sack of shiz, horn-dogging rut-hound, have nothing for which we need to apologize.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 02, 2023 07:26PM

D&C 132 says that JS would have been damned if he hadn't lived the New and Everlasting Covenant. Why would he publish something saying he was a fallen prophet?

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Posted by: vahn421 ( )
Date: March 04, 2023 03:25AM

I've got a lot more research to do, but I just wanted to chime in and say there is good evidence that D&C 132 was fabricated by Brigham Young who claimed Joseph wrote it.

The biggest suspicion for this outside of the evidence I'll have to track down later is that 132 treats Emma in the same manner that Brigham Young always talked about her, and Joseph NEVER did in any other instance. Find me a place in Joseph's own handwriting or in sermons he preached where he had nothing but praise for his wife. D&C 132 is absolutely bizarre relative to Joseph's typical attitude toward his wife, and absolutely spot on relative to Brigham's attitude toward Emma.

Also, a section CONDEMNING polygamy was removed from the D&C, also (seemingly) under Brigham Young's direction.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2023 03:26AM by vahn421.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 04, 2023 03:33AM

Yes, the "monogamy only" section of the D&C was not removed until well into the Utah period.

I believe it was in about 1853 when BY authorized Orson Pratt to acknowledge the principle in England, thereby killing the proselytizing effort in that country.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: March 04, 2023 07:05AM

Very possible. Emma stood loyal to Joseph her dying day. She denied Joseph ever had other wives besides her. The Utah church sent missionaries several times trying to get her to move to Utah and she refused.

When asked why she didn’t follow Brigham west she said she thought to idea was foolish. Nobody knew what was out there. She goes I had a home here.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: March 04, 2023 06:58AM

What’s funny is The Book of Mormon condemns King David for practicing polygamy and D&C 132 says he was under no condemnation for practicing it.

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: March 03, 2023 08:31PM

As a descendant of Grandma Lyons I offer the family quote about Grandma Josephine as taught to me about 6 decades ago.

Warning: this may be off putting to some.

"Grandma Lyons knew who came in her and when."

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: March 02, 2023 07:23PM

If JS wrote D&C 132 about "eternal marriage," telling Emma to buck up and accept it, I can't think of any other reason than to justify that he was boinking other women. To me, that is strong evidence.

The D&C was mostly a tool for JS to get people to do what he wanted.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 02, 2023 07:32PM

The evidence in favor of JS practicing polygamy is stronger than for many other 19th century facts. You have the words of JS in the D&C, JS associates leaving the church explicitly over his polygamous relationships, diary entries by some of the wives, sworn court declarations by at last a dozen more, etc.

I'm fully supportive of vahn421 conducting his own investigation and would like to see whatever he comes up with, but to reject the extensive evidence a priori like Rubicon is doing is not reasonable. Scrutinize the evidence, yes; reject some or all of it based on sound reasoning, sure; but disregarding it all without examination is not.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 02, 2023 07:46PM

Section 132 has its detractors based on its late insertion into the canon; it wasn't until 1876 that the D&C included good ol' Section 132.

The 1835 and 1844 versions of the D&C prohibited polygamy; boring old monogamy was the only acceptable form of marriage:

"In as much as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy: we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again."

Doctrine and Covenants (1835 ed.), section 101


Knowing what we know now, how droll of the brethren to wait until 1876 to go public...  How clever they must have felt.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 02, 2023 08:01PM

We know that the revelation was produced during Smith's life--at Hyrum's behest in order to deal with Emma's opposition--and that it was shared with a number of senior leaders, some of whom promptly defected and denounced the doctrine.

We also know that Sarah Pratt accused JS of proposing marriage to her when her husband was abroad on a mission. So too one of the other apostles's wife (whose surname I cannot recall but who was also a Sarah). Both apostles were disfellowshipped for believing their spouses.

All of which suggests that BY's conspiracy was not limited by the normal process of time, for somehow he managed to go into the past to when JS was still alive and persuade people to say things that would become useful after his death.

I wish I could do that. I'd have your co-signature on all sorts of loan documents.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: March 02, 2023 08:02PM

Maybe they weren't planning to include it but people were finding out too much and questioning. Maybe what JS was doing was about to be exposed in a big way. It seems a "revelation" is a handy thing when you are about to face a crisis. It smells like a justification for what was going on to try and cover his rear.

I can see JS saying with a shrug, "Shucks. God said so. What was I supposed to do when God was commanding me to boink all the babes?"

Also, I might add here that many cultish religions that started up ended up having convenient workarounds for the head guys to get extra sex. I'm not naïve enough to think Mormonism was any different.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 02, 2023 08:06PM

Hyrum urged JS to go to the Lord and get a revelation that would persuade Emma to accept "the principle." That's why it was so temporally specific: it addressed Emma's concerns and specifically her request that she too be allowed to have an additional spouse--she mentioned in particular "that cute little man" William Law.

Of course God was having none of that. He said Emma would be damned if she took advantage that which "my servant" Joseph had offered her.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: March 04, 2023 07:17AM

D&C 132 as it currently is contradicts the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon condemns King David for practicing polygamy and says he abused his authority in justifying it. We know Joseph wrote the Book of Mormon. I guess the brethren forgot to change the Book of Mormon when they changed the D&C.

I guess they had to say Joseph was practicing polygamy so Brigham didn’t look so bad.

The pattern looks like Joseph was a staunch believer in monogamy and his wife confirms that notion. D&C 132 and some claims makes it look like Joseph suddenly went wild and got his freak on the last two years of his life.

It’s called His-Story. I would say the polygamists in Utah rewrote a few things.

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Posted by: vahn421 ( )
Date: March 04, 2023 03:27AM

There is evidence to suggest D&C 132 is a plant by BY. There was also another section of the D&C that was removed by Young that CONDEMNED polygamy. The story doesn't seem to be what we thought.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: March 04, 2023 07:30AM

I would say the conclusion is nobody knows for sure if Joseph had multiple wives.

Clearly the Utah church modified the D&C to justify their polygamy. Polygamy was openly practiced in 1851. It was a different church by then.

Until certified DNA evidence can prove otherwise we don’t know. You have enemies of Joseph Smith trying to nail him. You have the Brighamites in Utah painting Joseph as a polygamist to justify the practice. You have people today that have a livid hate for Joseph Smith who want to pile as much garbage as they can find on his grave.

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Posted by: OP ( )
Date: March 02, 2023 11:40PM

No, he [re]"invented" it... once he was caught sleeping around.

He didn't always practice what he preached.

Therefore he might not have preached about it.
(He might have feared been being recorded)

All of Mormonism is JS/BOM/ hocus pocus, faux stories, heresay, invisible promises, double entendres and faith, whereby you're supposed to pay for an answer. It seems you're still searching. Keep reading, learning, guessing...

You probably didn't read the 1st - and only - edition of the Nawview Expositor. Well, on the leading page, Joseph's polygamy was written about.

Joseph burned down the Mormon man's press business & home (because he really didn't like the truth).

Joseph went to jail.

Joseph later went to hell and found out two wives wasn't the answer.

Nuff said

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Posted by: OP ( )
Date: March 03, 2023 12:18AM

So did Joseph Smith.

That's why he made it up

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: March 03, 2023 02:16AM

Do any documents written by Joey survive?

Does ChurchCo allow others to see them (‘general public’)?

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Posted by: loislane ( )
Date: March 03, 2023 02:03PM

How about that bit in the D&C about it's okay for a man to espouse a virgin, ten virgins if he likes, and Emma needs to accept it or she will be destroyed, Section 132 I think.

I dunno if it is in his own handwriting. He dictated most of his revelations to someone named Clayton I think.

Anyway, Emma burned the first copy of the revelation, so he had to dictate it again.

Wonder why he didn't do that with the lost pages of the BoM?

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 03, 2023 03:56PM

loislane Wrote:
---------------------------
>
> I dunno if it is in his own
> handwriting.  He dictated
> most of his revelations to
> someone named (William)
> Clayton, I think.

Yep, Bro. Clayton wrote out ten pages as he listened to JoJu make shizz up...

> Anyway, Emma burned the first
> copy of the revelation, so he
> had to dictate it again.

I'm not sure that they know exactly what happened to the original, but by the time it disappeared, a copy had been made.  That copy also disappeared, but not before the copy was copied.  That third copy, the Kingsbury Copy, still remains:

https://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/provenance-dc-132-documented/

>
> Wonder why he didn't do that
> with the lost pages of the BoM?

No re-dictation was needed, as pointed out above, and JoJu probably wouldn't have been in the mood.  Hyrum was the instigator of the written-out revelation because he fancied himself so suave and debonair and said he'd talk Emma into accepting the hound-dogging that JoJu was doing.  

JoJu told Hyrum that he, JoJu, knew Emma wasn't going to fall for it, but Hyrum nagged at him so JoJu dictated it.  Hyrum then runs to Emma, shows it to her, and tries to song and dance her into 'accepting' it.

She didn't and when Hyrum returned with this news, JoJu did the obligatory "I told you so!  You don't know her like I do..."

JoJu was horn-dogging it up to beat the band, accumulating wives and potentially keeping Bennett-the-'bortionist busy, but outside the intimate circle practicing the Higher Law, he continued to support the above-cited Section 101 of the 1835 version of the D&C; one husband with one wife, end of discussion ... pure and complete hypocrisy!

It wasn't until the mid-1850s that BY 'revealed' the Higher Law to the church, to show that polygamy was okay with ghawd, and then it became 'the law' when the 187x version of the D&C was published and it became D&C Sec 132.

We view the process one way, and TBMs view the process their way.  It's Yankees v. Red Sox, Dodgers v. Giants; business as usual.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 03, 2023 04:15PM

"Bennett the 'bortionist?"

You, Jesus, are a one-man jacquerie against good manners.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 03, 2023 04:19PM

I've embraced my peasantry!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 03, 2023 04:20PM

And I've embraced your pleasantry.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 03, 2023 04:31PM

A shotgun to your pheasantry...

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Posted by: dydimus ( )
Date: March 03, 2023 09:09PM

First off, let's get this whole "BY" started it (Polygamy)...The two different ways/styles of each man was different. Joseph Smith was in the civilized world and did everything he could to keep polygamy secret. That's why he asked Nancy Rigdon to burn the "Happiness Letter after reading"

That's why they burned down the press in Nauvoo to keep it secret. That's why J.S. was killed.

The Temple Lot case, confirms that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy and polyandry by sending husbands out on missions and they taking the wives of those missionaries, adopting a pair of sisters and moving them into his house. The Reed Smoot hearings have the leaders saying that, "Yes, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, etc... and other members practiced Polygamy.

So Joseph Started it, and in secret and kept it secret from Members...he panicked when it was going to be found. Brigham Young lived it out in the wilderness away from "normal" laws so he could do it openly, and honestly believed that he could create a theocracy government, if not own country as least Deseret state. So that's why we have more documented statements/proofs from BRIGHAMITES than from the original Mormons. from Joseph Smith; remember only about a third of the original mormons in Nauvoo went brighamite; most stayed or joined other mormon cults...

The Brighamites who went to SLC were mostly immigrants from U.K. Sweden, etc...

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 03, 2023 09:14PM

> The Brighamites who went to SLC were mostly
> immigrants from U.K. Sweden, etc...

Yoouu betcha!

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: March 04, 2023 07:48AM

Of course the modern Utah church is going say Joseph Smith practiced polygamy because if they don’t it makes Brigham Young look bad and they have no choice but to protect Brigham because if Brigham looks like a rogue it makes the LDS church a rogue.

So guy number one has to practice polygamy or Utah church rogue.

Anyways, it’s all speculation on if Joe was a hoe. Everyone is going to be Bob Ross and paint whatever picture they want. Too much bias to get any real conclusions.

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Posted by: Dallin Ox ( )
Date: March 04, 2023 04:37AM

Here's D&C 132 (1843) from the JS Papers

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/revelation-12-july-1843-dc-132/1

This other page from the JSP extensively discusses plural marriage.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/doc/introduction-to-journals-volume-2

"By December 1842, the end of the first year covered in these journals, Joseph Smith had explained the doctrine of plural marriage to a few of his closest associates and was practicing it himself."[42]

(note 42 lists contemporary as well as Utah-era sources)

The Happiness Letter to Nancy Rigdon:

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/appendix-letter-to-nancy-rigdon-circa-mid-april-1842/1

This shouldn't even be an issue. Perhaps OP believes that Smith's ad hominem attacks on the characters of Nancy Rigdon and Martha Brotherton were valid?

OP's insistence that evidence must be in Smith's own handwriting strikes me as unreasonably narrow and restrictive. It's like refusing to accept that Al Capone arranged the St. Valentine's Day Massacre because there's no direct order for it in his personal diary.

And to suggest that Young conspired with the Masons(!), and subsequently paid off Eliza R. Snow et al. to retcon polygamy back to Smith, can be *generously* described as highly speculative. I might as well insist that OP provide a written order in Young's own handwriting directing this. It cuts both ways.

This will be my only post on this thread. I'm not going to entertain any tinfoil Masonic conspiracy theories.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: March 04, 2023 07:56AM

Ha! I wear my Knights Templar ring just to freak people out. It freaks some out because they think I’m Illuminati and it freaks my Mormon friends and relatives out because it looks Catholic.

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