They are wealthy and are taken care of and have ample social opportunities. If they pick up smoking at 112, they might live even longer.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/02/21/longevity-expert-3-reasons-the-worlds-oldest-person-lived-to-122.html

Apostles are vetted pretty well. Chances are high they want to be where they are. Not everyone is miserable in the church. I think most apostles take pretty good care of themselves. They aren’t obese. Most seem pretty fit and of course they aren’t drinking and smoking.

I think the best attribute that all of them exhibit is the love they have for themselves and the fact that they enjoy hearing themselves bloviate for hours at end.

My uncle did smoke until he was 50 or so when the bishop called him to a position. My aunt was always active, but she was down to earth. She used to tell me in the later years of their lives that he was a lot more fun before he found religion.

He talked at quite a few family funerals (he became SP eventually) and not a tear was shed during his talks. I have a friend who was a bishop in his stake and he asked me if my uncle might have some dementia. I said, "Nope, that's just him." He had no clue how to give a talk and went on and on and on.

George Burns lasted how long? It seems to me the people I see on the news who died very old aren't mormon, but it does make you wonder why so many die at such old ages like Nelson. When can we hope he'll be gone? I've always thought it was interesting how they seem to fight so hard to stay alive. You'd think they'd be anxious to get to their glory.

Uncle above fought dying. My dad was ready to go. They died a year apart, but my uncle was probably 10 years older.

My husband died at a young age, as did most of the men in his family. he just lay down and died, for no particular reason, except maybe he just felt like it.

I had a heart to heart discussion with the autopsy doctor, whatever you call them about the key to long life, and why my husband just dropped dead like that.

He said the best way to live to an old age is to have parents who lived to an old age. It was all in genetics. The key was to have fat (wide) arteries, so even if there was buildup, blood could get thru.

Jack Lalanne ate well, exercised at least two hours a day and lived to his late 90s.

But his mother ate horribly and never exercised, and was overweight and out of shape, and SHElived to HER late 90s. So go figure.

So genetics genetics genetics, and don't play in traffic.

Lois

P.S. Today is a happy day for me. I have been diabetic for YEARS. Today my A1c was 7.5, the lowest it has EVer been. There is hope for me. Maybe I won't go blind and have to have a foot amputated, and all the rest of it, in which case, I will definitely want to keep on keeping on.

God bless us, every one.

loislane Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> P.S. Today is a happy day for me. I have been
> diabetic for YEARS. Today my A1c was 7.5, the
> lowest it has EVer been. There is hope for me.
> Maybe I won't go blind and have to have a foot
> amputated, and all the rest of it, in which case,
> I will definitely want to keep on keeping on.
>
> God bless us, every one.

Congratulations on your A1c.

Thank you for that. This is HUGE for me. I could never get it below 9. Scary stuff. Plus I almost went blind. Retina treatment saved me. In fact, it was my retina doc who diagnosed me. He said I had diabetes. I said how do you know, you haven't even tested me. He said he knew because I had diabetes retinapathy. He was right.

I was a big believer in natural remedies, but not no more. Now I get my eyes injected, like with a syringe, every month. Some weird chemical that keeps my retinas from swelling.

If that ever happens to anyone reading these words, don't worry about getting injected in the eye. They anesthetize you real good, and you don't feel a thing. Once the doc hit a vein, and I had bloodshot eyes for a month. It was real fun. Scared the little kids, and didn't really hurt me.

It is amazing how a major change for the better in your health can lift your spirits. All of a sudden life is good.

I think Lois is largely correct.

Genes are the dominant factor. If your genetic endowment is strong, the other factors become means of preventing illnesses and injuries from getting in the way.

As for the Q15, the reason they live so long is because they live so long. You have to be very old to become an apostle or to continue being one. It's like asking why the winners of Olympic sprinting competitions are all so fast. The answer is that they qualify for consideration because they had to be really fast to gt to the Olympic championships in the first place--and that is largely genetics.

But finding lots of old people in system that selects for longevity shouldn't be a surprise.

I think having social focus on their genes helps as well.

Yes, it would.

But are they really that social? Do they have "friends?" You would probably know better than I. . .

Hugh Brown lived into his mid 90s having had health problems since he was younger. Truman Madsen spent a lot of time with him and I think took him to The Holy land shortly before he died. He was fawned on everywhere he went and was seen as a god in my understanding. I was too little to tell.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2023 05:56PM by Elder Berry.

Ah yes, you're as close as I ever got to Brown so I know nothing about him.

But I have met some of the others and they are "social" not as normal people are, but as narcissists are. In short, they derive emotional supply from the adoration of others.

So they are social in much the same way as a leech or a tapeworm.

Of course they have friends. Just look for brown noses.

So... No theories about them bathing in the blood of virgin Mia Maids and Laurels?

I think it's largely genetics. But minimizing bad health habits and having access to excellent medical care are also factors.

And they probably aren't lonely and depressed.

Doesn't that prove that ignorance is bliss?

I think you wanted to say dotage is bliss.

only the good die young.

Mormons start much too late

They are waiting to be "CALLED" to the big chair.
They can't go until they're called.
They can't do anything!

It's a form of musical chairs where passive aggressiveness is expressed by refusing to die.

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> aggressiveness is expressed by refusing to die.


Nice way to put the human condition sometimes.

It's not the sacrament

I blame olive oil because it isn't their Mediterranean diets.

adrenochrome

Interesting Google search.

One key to a long life? As I've heard many doctors repeat, "Don't fall".

Doing a little googling, I learned that most of the apostles outlived their wives.

What's with that?

Interesting. Worthy of a thread itself.

That's simple statistics at work.

The CDC tells me that in 2021, life expectancy for a woman was 79.1 years and for a man, 73.2 years. If a man bucks the trend and lives to be 80 years old, his wife is still likely to have died at 79.1 years. If the man lives to be 90 years old, his wife is still likely to have died at 79.1. In short, longevity will not be highly coordinated between two people who do not share a similar genetic endowment.

There are minor complications in the picture--common lifestyle, similar nutrition, similar wealth levels, etc--that might give them both a slight edge relative to complete strangers, but those factors won't make a huge difference.

So the bottom line is that if a man lives exceptionally long, his wife almost certainly predeceased him.

I'd have to dust off my statistics 101 text.
I think I get what you're saying but still.......

It would make more sense to me to compare the ages of couples at death, not of individuals, to explore this phenomenon.

If women live an average of about 6 years longer than men, wouldn't it stand to reason that the majority of couples would fit that statistical model?

Sure there might be an occasional man who lived way longer than average to have a wife whose lifespan was average.

But in my rusty understanding, a majority of such pairings (majority being 90ish apostles outliving 80ish wives) to be the norm would be significantly unusual.

And addressing your last sentence, (So the bottom line is that if a man lives exceptionally long, his wife almost certainly predeceased him.), men living exceptionally long lives is unusual. Hence the given average male longevity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2023 08:25PM by Twinker.

My point is that you are looking at these questions from after the fact. It's like tossing coins until you get five heads in a row and then asking how you got five heads in a row. You got those results because you ruled out all other possibilities.

In this case, you look at men who became apostles precisely because they outlasted everyone else and ask, why are they so much older than most men? The answer is that they were selected for their age. Your precondition--being absurdly old--is identical to your conclusion: "these men are really old."

To get meaningful results you would need to do the opposite: namely, start with 10,000 random men at age 10 or 20 and then follow them until the survivors are all 90 and ask if there are factors that the nonagenarians share.

The same is true regarding the wives. Yes, "if women live an average of about 6 years longer than men. . . it would stand to reason that the majority of couples fit that statistical model" subject to a normal distribution. And the majority of couples exhibit pretty much what you suggest. But you are not at those couples. You are only looking at couples in which the man lived far beyond the average age of death for women.

Put simply, if a man lives past the average lifespan of a woman, his wife is increasingly likely to have died first. If we had the actuarial tables, that is exactly what they would reveal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2023 08:57PM by Lot's Wife.

  
  

Why?

Is he over 90?

I do understand what you're saying. And you may be right.

However I'm not yet willing to concede my point.

Most of the apostles were called when they were in their 70s. And the reason they are all old because of seniority. When they were picked in their 70s, there was no assurance that they wouldn't die within a few years.

I'll do a little more checking about my hunch - which is that the kingly status enjoyed by the apostles and the humiliating undervalued status of the wife contributes to her earlier death.

> Most of the apostles were called when they were in
> their 70s. And the reason they are all old because
> of seniority. When they were picked in their 70s,
> there was no assurance that they wouldn't die
> within a few years.

Agreed. And relative physical vigor was assuredly one of the reasons they were selected. In short, needing a cane or a walker was probably a deal breaker.

I look forward to seeing what you find.

@ Lot's Wife

Do you happen to know from what pool the apostles are called? The quorum of the 70s maybe? Nepotism? Lay position that might be useful to the church's image, ie. Dr. Russell Nelson, Utah Supreme Court Justice Dallin Oaks.

“Apostles are chosen through inspiration by the president of the church, sustained by the general membership of the church, and ordained by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles by the laying on of hands,” the church’s website explains.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2023 11:34PM by Twinker.

Others will know some of this better than I.

That said, the vast majority of apostles are linked by family ties, meaning that there is a high degree of nepotism involved. Uchdorf is a rare exception, and his descent into irrelevance after Thomas Monson's death probably reflects the resurgence of the old guard.

I would bet that almost all of them have also served as seventies. But that doesn't mean much, since all the Q15 have to do is take one of the people they like and put them in the Q70 for a few years and then they are good to go. Which suggests that there are at least two tracks in the Q70: those who are on the shortlist for promotion and then the hoi polloi.

I do have some anecdotal information that may shed light on the process. I have relatives who are close to Richard Hinckley, Gordon's son. Richard told them that--this would have been in the 1990s--he had approached his father and said he would like eventually to be an apostle. Gordon, who had already made his remarkably unprepared daughter head of one of the church's biggest companies and hence was perfectly willing to act nepotistically, replied that Richard would have to serve as a stake president (and probably a mission president?) for that to occur.

In any event, Richard almost immediately became a stake president and then was promoted to serve in the first quorum of the seventies in, IIRC, 2005. I am uncertain but do not think going straight from SP to the first quorum is a normal trajectory. Anyway, Gordon lost his mind at around that time and went to his reward in 2007 or 2008. The loss of his sponsor may have ended Richard's rapid ascent, as other members of the Q15 gained the upper hand.

So the most important factor is indeed nepotism. If powerful apostles want someone in the fast track, they can and do make that happen. But there are factions in the Q12 and so the pecking order can change. But there is no question that personal ties are very, very important.

Most come from the first quorum of seventy.

Nelson did not - he was general president of the sunday school and a regional representative (now that position would be area seventy)

Oaks did not He was president of BYU, then Utah suprene court justice before becoming an apostle.

Bednar did not. He was an area seventy, then president of BYU-I, then became an apostle.

Stevenson was a member of the first quorum of seventy, then entered the presiding bishopric, then became an apostle.

> Nelson did not - he was general president of the
> sunday school and a regional representative (now
> that position would be area seventy)

More importantly, he was the heart surgeon who saved Kimball from what we are assured would have been a premature death.


---------------
> Oaks did not He was president of BYU, then Utah
> suprene court justice before becoming an apostle.

I think being president of a church university is considered the equivalent of serving in the first quorum of the seventy.


-----------------
> Bednar did not. He was an area seventy, then
> president of BYU-I, then became an apostle.

Ibid.


-----------------

There are extant charts showing the nepotistic connections between today's apostles and past church leaders. I wish someone could point us to them.

Meanwhile, there is this, based on Quinn's research, from before Uchdorf was quickened:

"How does the current Presidency and Quorum of Twelve Apostles measure up? 100% of them are related in some way to current or former general authorities of the LDS Church. In the top 2 leading quorums – consisting of 15 men (The First Presidency and the Quorum of Twelve Apostles), five of these men are directly related to each other. Four are related to each other by marriage. Four are directly related to former LDS Presidents. Five are directly related to former apostles. Two are married to wives who are direct descendants of former presidents. Five are married to wives who are directly related to former apostles. Seven are married to wives who are relatives of current general authorities or of their wives. The only apostle who has no blood ties to any other general authority is Apostle Richard G. Scott. But, true to form, his wife is related to several current general authorities and even descends from a former LDS apostle."

https://www.mrm.org/nepotism

Also worse a gander if not a goose:

https://lifeafterministry.com/2016/01/nepotism-in-the-mormon-church/

Oh yeah, nepotism is a major factor.

Nelson was Kimball's surgeon and Bednar named a building at BYU-I after Hinckley. But I'm sure those factors had nothing to do with them becoming apostles. /s

The ways of the Lord are mysterious, which means that if we figure something out we must inevitably be wrong.