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Posted by: fischfrei ( )
Date: April 09, 2023 08:50PM

This is not about any kind of proselytizing on my part - just an FYI. Given the recent political craziness and the conversations I see posted here, some might appreciate the Easter message from Jos Tharakan, Episcopal Bishop of the Diocese of Idaho. It is on the Facebook page for the Episcopal Diocese of Idaho and was posted two days ago. I don't know how to link that across to this forum.

"It is now our time to move the world forward." He expresses deep disappointment in House Bill 71 and current laws passed in the Idaho. "Acceptance and accessibility was the complete message of Jesus and nothing more...It is not up to you or me to to restrict someone's access to the Kingdom of God... it is not up to you or me to restrict someone else's access to love and care."

Someone in a different post ask are there any churches that focus on love and kindness. Yes, not perfectly, but yes.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: April 09, 2023 09:11PM

Thank you for this. I don't do Farcebook, so I don't know what else his message includes.

Is this church also standing up for women's choice, libraries, teachers, all LGBTQ rights, children over guns, environment, and pro democracy over authoritarian control? Are they taking a stand against white supremacy? Don't all of these about someone's access to the "Kingdom of God" and focus on "love and kindness"? If so, I hope they will be vocal about it and vote accordingly.

Mormons make a big deal about "free agency" for others, but in words only except if they can figure out a way to profit from it.

The disappointing part is that Christian messages can be very inconsistent from one church to another. (Jesus should have been a little more clear.) I hope there are increasing numbers of Christians in Idaho who see through the hypnotic hold the current political climate has over them in Idaho. We need them!

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Posted by: fischfrei ( )
Date: April 09, 2023 09:47PM

The Episcopal Church is pro choice, open and affirming, and speaks out against the social ills you enumerate.They have ordained women since 1970 to all levels of power and authority. They do not tell members how to vote as they respect individual conscience, but they do speak out for justice for all. Bishop Tharakan is a man of color, he is an immigrant from India, and knew well when he accepted the call to Idaho that he was moving to the whitest of white states.

He talks about the shameful legacy of "Christian morality" and questions the focus on sexuality when there are so many who suffer homelessness, poverty, ptsd, abuse, hunger, etc.

I have never lived in Idaho but have some understanding of the culture there from past experience. It will be a rough road.

Perhaps someone here can link the message - you don't have to be a believer to admire and take hope from the courage and intelligence.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: April 09, 2023 09:51PM

Thanks for sharing that little ray of hope! I hope he gains more influence here.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: April 10, 2023 12:48AM

The Episcopal Church is among the more progressive churches.

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Posted by: dydimus ( )
Date: April 10, 2023 11:10AM

When I was growing up; we always were taught in Seminary, Sunday School about Free Agency.

A decade later, there was a talk at G.C. about "Free Agency" and how we shouldn't use the phrase, "Free Agency"...but just all it Agency. Because "Agency" already means free to do whatever your choice is; but you are responsible for your agency and will have to pay or receive on how you act on that agency.

To this day, I still slip when speaking with TBMs and use the phrase "Free Agency".

In a way, I have to agree with their reasoning, but by their own description...The Mormon corporation Inc. will have to be judged by moral agency in being open on history, finances, attendance, temple usage, etc... Reported abusers of women, children...responsiblity on creed, abusive language, leaders, etc...which causes so much harm and suicide and depression.etc... https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2014/10/free-agency-or-moral-agency?lang=eng

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: April 10, 2023 11:34AM

LOL. It makes me think having agency isn't free in their church: you have to pay for everything. (j/k) It was a redundant and awkward phrase.

I remember their campaign to drop "free." I like to say free agency on purpose just like the word Mormon. That stuff isn't going down the memory hole on my watch!

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 12:10PM

The church brow beat every bit of Mormonism into my 8 year old head. If they all of sudden decide to change their wording because a committee decided so, too bad! This is the grand effect of relentless brainwashing.

I still expect the little temple slips of paper to have names, WHO ARE DEAD, because that was emphasized over and over.

It will always be Free Agency.

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Posted by: tensolator ( )
Date: April 10, 2023 12:16AM

I spent today, Easter Sunday in the AM, enjoying an Episcopalian service. I have not enjoyed too many Easter Sundays pent up in sacrament meeting. Today amongst the Episcopalians was great. I felt comfortable. I have not felt comfortable in a Mormon meeting in... Ever.

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Posted by: HoldMyBudLight ( )
Date: April 10, 2023 10:02AM

Going woke where no sovereign has gone before, King Charles III is at loggerheads with the Church or England, as he wants to include non-Christian clerics in his coronation, including Moslems. The Church hierarchy is actually resisting! Considering the mon-Christian parties they have already accommodated, I'm surprised.
You think the Seer and Revelator of Salt Lake City qualifies for an invite?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 10, 2023 02:37PM

"Woke?" Trying to include the subjects of the kingdom in the coronation of the king?

Nonsense.

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Posted by: adoylelb ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 03:22PM

If being "woke" means accepting that the UK is religiously and culturally diverse, then it's a good thing.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 13, 2023 02:12PM

Agreed, although "woke" is a pejorative.

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Posted by: DeploraFiend ( )
Date: April 13, 2023 02:23PM

Not too long ago, "woke" was a self-proclaimed way to summarize oneself, a position, a policy or an institution. Progressives have long defined terms to suit their purposes. Castration and mastectomies are now called "gender-affirming," for example. Long ago, "gay" meant "happy, festive."

Sing it out, "We're woke, we're proud!"

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 13, 2023 03:07PM

Why would I wear a term proudly--or otherwise--that I have never used on myself and, in fact, had never heard of before you lot started using it?


------------
> Not too long ago, "woke" was a self-proclaimed way
> to summarize oneself, a position, a policy or an
> institution.

Can you document that? I can imagine some college students neologizing, but can you demonstrate that it was used widely or by established liberal thinkers before conservatives did?


--------------
> Progressives have long defined terms
> to suit their purposes.

You don't think conservatives do that??? What about the word "Federalist?" Hamilton, Jay and Madison used the word to describe people who advocated the use of checks and balances, a tripartite division of power, an independent judiciary, and limits on government power. Your fellow travelers use it in the opposite way.

You have also changed the word "Republican," ignoring the fact that Eisenhower and Nixon and Reagan would be democrats in today's terms. What about your epithets? Calling the dems "socialists" when no one is talking about the state taking ownership of the means of production? "Marxist?" "Virtue signaling?" "Liberal leftist?"

"Cosmopolitan," meaning Jew or Jew-lover? These are interesting usages since the right took them from the Bolsheviks, which is a telling etymology. (See: Federalist)



--------------
> Castration and
> mastectomies are now called "gender-affirming,"
> for example.

By that logic the use of aspirin to thin blood as opposed to just fixing headaches is a linguistic atrocity.

In fact, you'll find that those procedures still mean the same thing they did when you were rearing children during the Roaring Twenties.


------------------
> Long ago, "gay" meant "happy,
> festive."

Is it your view that the new use of "gay" was part of a liberal plot? Does it bother you that Mussolini co-opted the word for a bunch of sticks?

Somehow I don't think it does.


-----------------
> Sing it out, "We're woke, we're proud!"

Sing it out, caffiend, "We're a bunch of sticks, we're proud!"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2023 03:21PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: Kentish ( )
Date: April 10, 2023 10:27AM

The Coronation is a religious ceremony conducted by the head of the Church of England, the Archbishop of Canterbury. While still a part of the establishment it has a rapidly diminishing place in the lives of British people, especially in England. My sense is that the bulk of people will, however, back the church on this one.

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Posted by: Lethbridge Reprobate ( )
Date: April 10, 2023 10:40AM

I, as subject (I do not use the word "loyal" as I have no use for the monarchy) of said king, I'll not be watching his coronation.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: April 10, 2023 11:28AM

Same here, Ron. Not interested.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: April 10, 2023 11:37AM

I wonder if they'll expand Dylan Mulvaney as spokeboi to Bus_h Lite?

*Full & Fair Disclosure: I boycott all beers. All alcohol, for that matter.

Then there's this:
https://img.ifunny.co/images/749df0d165fbf8da1d07f4e0088b579cf62e973b50830c8c1ef95d34e3d9634f_1.webp

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 10, 2023 07:44PM

I'm waiting for The Resurrection, so that Queen Elizabeth, II can be reinstalled to the position I think she merits.

God Save The Queen, as well as Peter Death Bredon Wimsey.

Amen.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: April 10, 2023 08:11PM

Yup -- there will never be a better British monarch. I think even the British people would agree with that.

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Posted by: Kentish ( )
Date: April 10, 2023 09:07PM

Perhaps the same was said after others like Alfred, the only one named as The Great, the first Elizabeth, and perhaps Victoria.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 10, 2023 09:24PM

Alfred certainly has a claim to the title, but I don't think he was ever in as much physical danger as Liz I was. What she achieved as a woman puts her in a unique class.

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Posted by: Kentish ( )
Date: April 10, 2023 11:56PM

Indeed. Beset on many sides. Not least by a half sister whose deeds earned her the name "Bloody".

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 10, 2023 11:58PM

A viper’s den, truly.

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: April 10, 2023 09:36PM

Wasn’t there a rift when they started ordaining women?

Also, IIRC, a lesbian priest was defrocked in the Germantown neighborhood in Philadelphia.

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Posted by: fischfrei ( )
Date: April 11, 2023 11:33AM

Beth, There was a schism over the ordination of women beginning in 1974. And there have been challenges to the ordination of LGBTQ folks. The Worldwide Anglican Communion is a fractious group and historically has straddled the Catholic Protestant divide in complex ways. The Episcopal Church is one member of the worldwide union - 85 communion members total, if I remember correctly.

I believe the Germantown defrocking was a Lesbian Methodist minister - I lived in PA at that time - but there could have been another defrocking of which I am unaware. The Methodists are in the midst of a big schism over LGBTQ ordinations and sacraments.

One of the most fractious religious groups in the U.S. is the Amish, despite outward appearance of uniformity. They have divided over what could seem like very tiny issues. But, as a whole, they are a rigid, shunning group. In terms of divisions, an Amish saying in "good wood splits."

I think the fractiousness of religious groups is best viewed in terms of an old Jewish joke - "If there are three Jews in a town, there will be four synagogues. If there are four Jews, there will be twelve synagogues."

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: April 11, 2023 02:06PM

Yes. I’ll see what I can find about the Germantown church I mentioned.

My stepmother is Episcopalian, and I remember her mentioning that several groups broke with the main group and joined another Anglicanish group. Maybe five to ten years ago.

I’m on a work break, and I apologize for not responding more appropriately.

w/r/t other religions, I hear you, but I’m talking about the one you were talking about in your original post.

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Posted by: kentish ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 01:26PM

The Episcopal Church in the US is in serious decline much like the Church of England. In the past 60 years its numers have gone from almost 3.5 million to about 1.8 million today and the decline continues. Last number I saw for the CofE was less than 2% of the population attending on a regular basis. That is projected to drop to less than 1% very soon.

Anyone interested might want to check out Calvin Robinson who was refused ordination in the CofE for his critical views on why the CofE is in decline. One YT video has him expressing his views at the Oxford Union.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: April 13, 2023 11:28AM

My independent Baptist church is growing. Not a month goes by without some mixture of new members, baptisms, marriages or pregnancies. More than a few new members are people who abandoned liberalizing churches; the rest are converts.

I'd say that hidden in the data of American church decline is growth in three categories:

ethnic churches (Black Baptist and Hispanic Pentecostal, especially)
Evangelical and Fundamental
"Mega" churches with contemporary worship style

But yes, secularization is growing, and no, it's not "the Great Apostasy."

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Posted by: ookami ( )
Date: April 13, 2023 03:15PM

I have issues regarding churches due to hate-mongering and exploiting followers for money.

Episcopalians are alright, though. I think they realized that religion has been used for evil before and want to be better than that. Or maybe I just like to think that it's their attempt at redemption. The idea of having done wrong before but becoming a better person is one of the few things from Christianity I like.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: April 13, 2023 03:41PM

I just watched S3E3 of Ted Lasso. In it Rebecca reluctantly visits a psychic. When asked how it went, she opined that she would probably not do it again.

“When it comes to being scammed out of outrageous amounts of my money, I prefer the old-fashioned way, with religion.”

Words to that effect. The plot development made it clear the psychic will be back. Grumble.

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Posted by: kentish ( )
Date: April 13, 2023 06:21PM

One season was a stretch but how far can you take the idea of an American football coach becoming the manager/coach of a top flight club in world football. I tend to resist, too, the idea that everyone uses the F word in every sentence the way Hollywood thinks it does.

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