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Posted by: green mm ( )
Date: September 25, 2023 12:17PM

there is very little "thinking" going on about what is believed.

Even the bishopric member doesn't think about very basic lds subjects.

They felt the spirit, it's true, they move on with life.

sidenote:

they think the people who do research/think about it are...odd.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: September 25, 2023 12:30PM


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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: September 25, 2023 03:08PM


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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: September 25, 2023 02:26PM

I've done no research on this issue, so this is me flying by the soles of my Adidas huaraches:

Occasionally, religions "reorient" themselves, as do other huge, monolithic organizations.  But it is rare and thus notable.

It seems that Mormonism is ripening...moving toward a major Martin Luther Moment, a bit like when Woodruff announced, "No more Plural Marriage (that can be proven)!" and the FLDS movement squirted out.

I don't see it as just 'cult' thinking; it's more just the momentum of the masses.  Imagine trying to change some rules in Soccer or College Football or insisting that people not gamble on sports or consume alcohol...  The inertia of what "IS" easily overcomes any impetus to change course, no matter how minute the difference of the new bearings.

If I am on to something in thinking in this vein, it would explain why mormons act the way you see them act.  Change is not only not expected to occur, it would likely be upsetting if it did.  

Mormonism is somewhat unique in that the laity cannot effect change.  This may be a hallmark of a cult; think of the other religious organizations in which this is the case.

But the day may come in General Conference (far-fetched as it sounds) when as many hands are raised in opposition as are in support.  What a day that will be!

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Posted by: blindguy ( )
Date: September 25, 2023 06:27PM

Elderolddog wrote in part:

"Mormonism is somewhat unique in that the laity cannot effect change. This may be a hallmark of a cult; think of the other religious organizations in which this is the case."

That's not quite accurate. If enough lay members who have money and who have tithed significantly don't like an LDS church policy, it can go out the window. I am specifically thinking of the letter that came out in the early 1980s about no oral sex--the LDS church had to backtrack on that one because of the outcry from tithe payers.

But otherwise, you're right. Most Mormons do not, and will not, seek to challenge the beliefs set down by their church, even if it means that they wind up with less money in their pockes. And, as Anybody pointed out above, that is the classic definition of both a cult and cult-like thinking.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: September 25, 2023 07:49PM

You're right!

I wonder if it's just in "sex" areas?

Like the Catholic ban on birth control ... and abortion.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: September 25, 2023 02:36PM

The church is more of a social/family construct than a spiritual one. If the members actually thought about their religion’s real history they would want to distance their way from it.

Te church is more about belonging to a group and fitting in than any real deep belief in anything. Most church callings are process and busywork.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: January 24, 2024 11:21AM

So you are admitting that LD$ Inc. is merely a social club.

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Posted by: want2bx ( )
Date: September 25, 2023 02:43PM

I had a discussion with a TBM friend not too long ago where she stated that people who leave the church or who have difficulty with its doctrines and history tend to be very black and white thinkers. No, we're just thinkers.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 25, 2023 03:30PM

want2bx Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... she stated that people who leave the
> church or who have difficulty with its doctrines
> and history tend to be very black and white
> thinkers.

Interesting perspective. We may have said it's the other way 'round. The people who leave are the non-black-and-white thinkers it seems like.

I wonder how she describes the "thinking" of those who stay in, accepting what the leaders say, ignoring the obvious evidence that today's leaders have to massage the original message and beliefs of JS, BY et al, and certainly that they have to come up with creative explanations for early church history and beliefs - unchangeable beliefs that, sure enough, have actually changed.

Thinking, questioning, altering perspectives in light of new evidence, learning, growing, changing. Definitely not a black and white thing!

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Posted by: want2bx ( )
Date: September 25, 2023 06:21PM

I agree with you. I've always considered things to be the other way around as well.

I think she assumes that many who have difficulty with the church aren't making allowances for the customs or culture of earlier times or are expecting perfection from leaders, thus being very black and white in their thinking. I've heard her say that the church's history doesn't bother her because she can't judge it by today's standards. What I don't think she understands is that the history of the church is still problematic when you judge it by the standards of its day. And when a leader is saying that he is speaking for God and expects obedience, it's only right that he be judged accordingly.

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: September 25, 2023 03:47PM

>> ....people who leave the church or who have difficulty with its doctrines and history tend to be very black and white thinkers. <<

What color do you have to think in to believe it?

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Posted by: want2bx ( )
Date: September 25, 2023 06:23PM

Lol! I like that! I'll have to use that next time.

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Posted by: green mm ( )
Date: September 25, 2023 02:53PM

that church is "true" - their stance - "gospel" is true

that modern prophet receives direct revelation about details

polygamy is an eternal concept

that priesthood was ever banned based on skin color (god had 0 to do with this)

that it matters when someone leaves church - in other words - the gospel is true but doesn't matter whether you join or not

that missionaries approaching people to tell them their belief is wrong is not same as someone asking a mormon whether their belief is wrong - the first is fine/culturally acceptable - the second is rude and offensive

that garment wearing is a requirement i.e. doesn't matter what promise in temple - it's all fluid and that's what repentance is for

that there is never need to pay back tithing to get temple recommend

that they don't look down on any one else's belief ie. its all mostly the same

that the church never forbade oral sex between married couples that's a lie

that stake president's and bishops don't really or can' really get revelation about individuals in stake or ward

that anything the prophet says is just his opinion unless written and prefaced with something like "thus saith the lord"
in other words almost all said is to be thought about and acted on only if it makes sense to the individual member

that modern members don't judge anyone who leaves church anymore or make assumptions about why the leave

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: September 25, 2023 03:12PM

Good list. I would add that old chestnut: "There is no such thing as/the Church has never taught the Second Annointing".

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: September 25, 2023 03:43PM

When you want to be what the crowd you belong to considers the ideal, you can become so focused on that you fail to consider whether you are even in the right crowd. The fabled eye of the tiger is just plain ole tunnel vision.

I never felt the spirit. I said I had. I didn't want to be the one who didn't. Did not want to be seen as someone who wasn't worthy of the spirit. Wanted to be part of the "cool crowd" that the spirit apparently doted on.

I was so good at faking it. Even believed my self, believed my own publicity. Against my own best interest.

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Posted by: Humberto ( )
Date: September 25, 2023 03:44PM

I had a conversation with my God obsessed father the other day...

He reads his holy books every day, believes them wholeheartedly, and interprets almost everything through those words.

He was lamenting that there seems to be a worldwide increase in catastrophic natural events. He stated with unquestioning confidence that this is a result of scriptural prophecy. There couldn't possibly be any evidence supported causes. Climate change is nothing more than a secular hoax designed by Satan to pull people away from God.

It's not worth the honest discussion...he's too far gone.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 25, 2023 04:32PM

Church trumps family. Always and forever.

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: September 25, 2023 05:29PM

Used to get an ad on my phone.

It said "I don't have a testimony of (plural marriage, church history or some other subject), I have a testimony of Christ."

I also had a coworker that refused to study history as it could destroy his testimony.

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: September 25, 2023 06:00PM

no longer exists or never existed.

All of those things they said never were taught is ridiculous. Even my now TBM daughter would say that. I'd send her the list, but I don't discuss mormonism with her unless she brings it up.

I guess when you are 66, it is easy for the younger generations to say we were wrong about all these things like the blacks and he priesthood.

Did they say anything about us having our own planet?

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Posted by: mm green ( )
Date: September 25, 2023 06:45PM

I pointed out chapter in 3rd nephi where the very recently killed for everyone's sins - Jesus - goes to america and kills millions who haven't had a chance to take advantage of his sacrifice - and then brags about it -

they all said - we don't know what you are talking about/you are making that up.

I said - have you read the book of mormon?

one said - even if book of mormon is modern fiction - doesn't mean gospel isn't true....

kill me now.

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: September 25, 2023 09:26PM

How things have changed!!

I wouldn't be having any discussions with them anymore. I'd say they are lying.

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Posted by: mm green ( )
Date: September 25, 2023 11:03PM

you have to pinch yourself to make sure your'e awake
it's nuts
but I think it's common

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: September 26, 2023 12:10AM

It never was having a planet, but worlds without number.

D&C 131:20 "Then shall they be gods because they have no end"

What do gods do?

Moses 1:33 "worlds without number have I created "

Moses 1:38,39 "and as one earth shall pass away, even so another shall come, there is no end to my works....my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."

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Posted by: kentish ( )
Date: September 25, 2023 07:03PM

I think the opening premise could apply to most issues and discussion points. It certainly applies, I think, to political opinions and leanings. Many people I find can be quite fixed in their political beliefs, especially in their apportionment of claimed resuts, good or bad, without the addition of thinking and the research of facts. In many things we are informed by our biases before anything else.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: September 25, 2023 07:41PM

I mentioned to my mother in her old age, that she often voted against her own self-interest. While she acknowledged this, IMO it was force of habit more than anything else.

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Posted by: blackcoatsdaughter ( )
Date: September 25, 2023 07:51PM

>>there is very little "thinking" going on about what is believed.

Even the bishopric member doesn't think about very basic lds subjects.

They felt the spirit, it's true, they move on with life.
>>

Yes. It is why they call it a "shelf". It is the things that occurred to you that bothered you, that didn't fit right with what you knew, the red flags, the "am I in a cult?" thought sign posts, the uncomfortable subjects that deserve more research but you decide not to because you can feel it, this sense of doubt that is probably Satan and his minions trying to tempt you away from the truth, etc. The shelf, where you put all the uncomfortable things you don't wish to think about, because you intuitively know, if you gave them more attention, you'd probably lose your faith.

The "shelf break" is when it gets too heavy for the thinkers to ignore, as if it has fallen from the wall and spilled all the items it was holding into full view, curiosity unleashed.

If you were to talk to me as a TBM, I would have insisted my religion made sense to me. I would give you a "logical" spiel f why these rules of the universe outlined by the gospel made sense.

If you were to bring up any subjects I wasn't taught or were against what I was taught, you would suddenly find me very uncurious. Resistant, dismissive, as if you were too arrogant and naive to pray for your own guidance.

If you were to bring up anything from my shelf, ANYTHING I had discovered and set there myself, you would have frightened me. Not even joking you. It would have been an attack and I would have run. I would not want to hear my own fears, "wait, am I in a cult?" confirmed by someone outside of me using any of the doubts I had refused to examine further in the quiet of my own reflection.

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Posted by: Jethro ( )
Date: September 25, 2023 11:28PM

U can bring up all kind of stuff and why this and why that, bottom line no matter what u are a part of, or belong to, Republican party, Democratic party, Baptist, JW's etc, when u believe in something u can't really see reality.

I just never thought about the coffee and tea being man/church controlling me, never hit me about the way the church treated african americans pre 1978.

Why cuz I just couldn't see it, when its so simple, what the hell has coffee or tea got to do with my relationship with my maker.

Crazy ain't it.

Belief is blind.

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: September 26, 2023 02:05AM

I was raised with the negro ban, and no Mormon will admit to it now. They were proud of the word Mormon, and they bragged that they weren't Christian or even protestant. Mormon boys would grow up to become gods, that's also denied. Priesthood meetings were referred to as world-building studies. We had Boy Scouting and pot lucks from the kitchen.That church no longer exists and I get called a liar.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2023 02:06AM by donbagley.

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Posted by: green mm ( )
Date: September 26, 2023 02:40AM

and worse -
someone who wants to attack testimonies.
it's crazy.

I was raised like you.
kingdoms based on worthiness
god with wives
power with faith as small as a mustard seed to move a mountain
dark skin/lack of priesthood - God had his reasons
the book of abraham and bom - absolute factual history
polygamy practiced by js - a lie
no questioning brethren

they've kept the self righteous attitude and jettisoned the
embarrasing parts (at least they are trying to.

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Posted by: Occasional Geek ( )
Date: September 28, 2023 02:13AM

Don, You and I are probably close to the same age.

Did you ever this doctrine from the "church"?

Heavenly Father came down from heaven to physically create Jesus with Mary.

I was taught this in seminary by a teacher paid by the church. Circa 1969 to 1972.

At the time, I thought it was stellar! That explains a lot about other religion's incorrect view of an immaculate conception.

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: September 28, 2023 02:32AM

Wait, isn't that what we were all taught? I know I sure was. Not that I am even close to being as old as you and Don :P

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 28, 2023 02:47AM

I was taught that too, much later than 1972. . .

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Posted by: swallow ( )
Date: January 24, 2024 05:29AM

Welcome to the world. Most people don't think about what they do and so are safe and effective.

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Posted by: Trails end ( )
Date: January 24, 2024 12:55PM

Flds squirted….haha and squirted and squirted..any opinions as to how long plural marriage might have survived sans squirting….well now turn the time to EOD….our in house ex spurt on squirting….the time is yours to use as you are lead….real folk don’t soak

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Posted by: Alien Weaponry ( )
Date: January 27, 2024 06:51AM

You will find this in most walks of life. Some of it is what is known as Sunk Cost.

For example, the LDS tells you have a disease and then offers you a cure. But you get the cure and you feel sicker than before, in fact the LDS cure may be part of a new problem. But all the leaders are telling you that you are in the wrong and they are right. And you can't discuss the matter properly in church.

Then they offer you another cure and then another. You are given regular booster interviews to see if you are still Mormon.

By the time you are sealed in the temple and have children it is hard to walk away from their cure.

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