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Posted by: zliska ( )
Date: January 11, 2025 11:56AM

The LDS Church claims to have more than 17 million members. President Nelson repeated that claim at the April 2024 Semi-Annual General Conference. The claim is typical of the deception which the Church has employed since its inception, as more than half of those individuals are completely inactive, and want nothing to do with the Church.

A disgraceful true story about the LDS Japan Tokyo South Mission is worth recounting. I have used some of the information provided by flattopSF in a post on the Recovery From Mormonism board, which is consistent with information provided by a family member who was called to the Tokyo South Mission nearly two decades after these events occurred. One of the two main characters in the story was Delbert (“Dee”) Holbook Groberg, a successful oil-industry executive, and the son of Delbert Valentine Groberg, the Idaho Falls, Idaho Temple president and his wife, Jennie Holbrook. Dee Groberg was also the brother of John H. Groberg, a member of the LDS Quorum of Seventy. Though I never met Dee Groberg or his wife, I knew his parents and his siblings, including John. The other main character was Yoshihiko Kikuchi, a successful business executive, who at the time was Japan Area Administrator for the Church.

After Spencer W. Kimball, the President of the LDS Church, appointed Dee Groberg as President of the Japan Tokyo South Mission in 1978, he and Yoshihiko Kikuchi formulated a plan to increase baptisms in Japan, a nation that was, historically, an abysmally-performing venue for missionary work. LDS missionaries generally spent two years there, unable to teach anyone about the Church. New-member baptisms were almost nonexistent. Their plan was to radically alter the standard LDS methods of targeting, contacting, teaching and baptizing, so as to take advantage of certain behavioral patterns of Japanese culture. The plan also took a charismatic approach to conversion, not unlike that of American Fundamentalist tent-meetings, which were accompanied by mass baptisms.

As part of the plan, missionary apartments were relocated to areas near major pedestrian shopping centers and transportation hubs. In Tokyo, existing chapels were used as teaching centers, and when distance from a chapel rendered that option unfeasible, offices were rented with the intent to use them for the same purpose and as branch meeting-houses. In outlying areas, missionary apartments were to be used as teaching centers as well as branch meeting-houses. Missionaries were instructed to no longer waste their time tracting (i.e., knocking doors), but rather to use the shopping centers and transportation hubs as a resource pool, to make street contacts through a variety of tricks, the most popular of which was to offer tutoring in English. Another was the establishment of baseball and basketball teams to attract the teenage boys. Missionaries were instructed to target teens, young adults, and needy types in their street contacting. These were easy targets. They were to take advantage of a the Japanese cultural reluctance to directly disagree or engage in confrontation in face-to-face interactions, and were given techniques on how to establish an easy rapport, and how to get the contact to repeatedly agree with the missionary. A patter was developed so that the missionary could steer and control the conversation. Then the missionary would get the contact to agree (easy by that time) to go with him/her and talk briefly about “Something Very Important”.

Missionaries were instructed that once communication was established, they were not to lose it. They were to bring the contact to the nearest teaching center, and begin the indoctrination process immediately. The standard six missionary discussions were rewritten and condensed into six short presentations that lasted between five and ten minutes each. The lessons were dramatized and endowed with a charismatic flavor. Missionaries were advised that they could "teach" all six discussions at once "if the spirit so directed." Following the mini-discussion presentation, missionaries were instructed to immediately challenge the person to baptism. If the person accepted, missionaries were to contact their zone leaders, who were never more than ten or fifteen minutes away by train, and schedule a baptismal interview. Apartments, teaching centers, and meeting-houses were all equipped with makeshift baptismal fonts. If the contact accepted and passed the interview for baptism (almost no one failed the interview), he or she was loaned a white jumpsuit or shift, and baptism immediately followed the six lessons and interview. Confirmation as a member of the Church followed. Zone Leaders witnessed both the baptism and the confirmation. The entire process (contact to confirmation) was timed and refined until it was streamlined down to approximately one and one-half hour. Most frequently, the six lessons, the baptism interview and confirmation all occurred in succession. The missionary was to exchange contact information (address and phone number) with the "new member," give him or her a copy of the Book of Mormon, as well as a small map and schedule that showed him when and where the nearest church services were held. The new member was, then, allowed to depart.

New baptism statistics were posted weekly in the mission newsletter, so as to increase the level of competition among the missionaries. Missionaries were required to meet regularly for "mutual encouragement" meetings, and Zone or Mission Conferences were regularly scheduled to raise the excitement level even further and sustain it at fever pitch. The whole concept was packaged and sold as a “Two Hour Secret Adventure”. Naturally, when the new members went home and talked to their parents about what they had just been through, they were almost certainly met with a huge negative response.

In retrospect, the Tokyo South Mission conversion plan sounds outrageous—and it was, but at the time, it revolutionized Japanese missionary work. Baptisms soared. Suddenly, missionaries who had been unable to baptize a single person were baptizing dozens of people every month. The Tokyo South mission soon averaged over 1,000 baptisms each month. In fact, for a time, it was the highest baptizing mission in the entire Church. News of this naturally spread like wildfire. What no one in Utah realized at the time was that most of these “conversions” were mostly teenage boys who wanted only to play baseball and basketball, as well as some teenage girls who were enamored with all things American. Though other missions in Japan were soon using some variation of the new techniques, none was as spectacularly successful as the Tokyo South Mission. Groberg and Kikuchi got the system up and running, and did what was necessary to keep it going.

The psychological cost to everyone involved in the process was enormous. Peer-pressure and leadership expectations were high, and every missionary in the Tokyo South Mission suffered some degree of personal emotional pain in the process. Many went home early after serving only a few months under Groberg. I assume that they simply did not want to be so inappropriately manipulated, nor did they want to continue to manipulate the Japanese people. Groberg reportedly became verbally and psychologically abusive when missionaries announced that they leaving the mission early and going home. This was to be expected. When I asked Boyd K. Packer some difficult questions about the Book of Mormon and church doctrine when I was a missionary, he became psychologically abusive. I suspect that those who left early dropped out of the Church completely—never to return, and many of those who completed their missions under Groberg subsequently left the Church.

Longtime Japanese members were shocked and horrified, as they were the ones who had to deal with some 30,000 membership records of new people who, even when contacted, displayed no interest, whatsoever, in the LDS religion. By 1982, a year following the departure of Dee Groberg and his wife, Sharon, the LDS Church in Tokyo had become the brunt of jokes and mockery by Japanese TV personalities, a situation which lasted for decades. The costs for Dee Groberg and his wife, who later divorced, were also high. Two of their sons died. If I remember correctly, one committed suicide at the age of 19; the other died of a drug overdose at the age of 38. Dee Groberg passed away in 2022 at the age of 81.

I suspect that Dee’s brother, John, was not promoted beyond the Quorum of Seventy because of his familial ties to Dee and to another brother, David, who had his Idaho license to practice clinical psychology revoked in the 1990s for having engaged in sex with a female client-patient. In 2005, at the age of 71, John was granted “emeritus” status. This tragic story demonstrates that within the LDS Church, looking good is often more laudable than doing good or being good.

Though growth rates are down from what they were three decades ago, the Church is still growing fairly rapidly for one reason: the conversion of large numbers of relatively uneducated people from the third-world countries of Asia, Latin America and Africa. This is really not a new phenomenon, as the Church has always had its greatest success among the uneducated, downtrodden masses. In the U.S., growth is fueled mainly by the exploding immigrant population. There are strong indications that white middle-class members (the principal tithe-paying group) are deserting the Church in increasing numbers. The Internet is likely responsible for that phenomenon. It is, without doubt, the most significant threat to expansion of the LDS Church among the informed and educated. Never before has such a vast array of information been instantly available to so many. Accurate information is the enemy of darkness, fraud and deceit. The adverse impact of the Internet will likely grow as the damning historical information relating to the LDS Church is translated into foreign languages, and access to the Internet in third-world countries increases. In another ten years, the Church will likely see the number of conversions in third-world countries begin to dwindle.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2025 11:05PM by zliska.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: January 11, 2025 12:07PM

Yes, longtime board members are very familiar with the Groberg era in Japan. Here is one particular thread which has been archived, but there have been a number of mentions over the years.

https://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon555.htm

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Posted by: lousyleper ( )
Date: January 11, 2025 12:15PM

and the amount that they have left. However, it's all used for humanitarian services, and also bribing Jesus ;)

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: January 11, 2025 04:13PM


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Posted by: zliska ( )
Date: January 11, 2025 04:24PM

In the LDS Church, isn't fasting much about bribing God and/or Jesus to act?

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Posted by: lousyleper ( )
Date: January 12, 2025 02:01PM


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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: January 11, 2025 05:59PM

zliska, a request.

You are showing a habit of posting enormous walls of congealed text (no white space). These are very difficult to read because it is difficult to keep track of which line one is on. I think I have more trouble with this than the average reader, but it is somewhat difficult for most readers.

Newspaper publishers figured this out about 300 years ago when they started printing papers with narrow columns and short paragraphs - i.e. lots of white space.

Personally, when I see a post with more than about ten lines of text without whitespace, I just move on to another thread. If it is going to take me more time to deal with the lack of whitespace that it would have taken the original poster to add a couple of return characters every few sentences, I just move on.


In this thread, you at least did insert a single return now and then. I, and I suspect others would appreciate two returns in a row to create a blank line, and do it more often. I think every ten lines or less is not a bad standard. Nearly everybody already does that, because they figured out on their own what I just stated explicitly.

Thanks for your attention in this matter.

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: January 11, 2025 06:56PM

BoJ, I think we are seeing this format because the posts are being copy/pasted from other sources. Do you remember Greg Olson?

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Posted by: tumwater ( )
Date: February 07, 2025 02:43PM

If you paste from an outside source with little white, you can easily insert a couple of newline

characters

to break up the white wall.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: January 11, 2025 09:56PM

##########

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crumb_(film)

Charles Vincent Crumb Jr. (March 13, 1942 – February 1992) - Robert's eldest brother whose childhood obsession with making comics Robert credits as the foundation of his own devotion to art.[1][2] As he entered adulthood, he began showing signs of mental illness, rarely ventured from the home he shared with his mother, and died by suicide aged 49, reportedly by overdose.

His art exhibited repetitive and painstaking concentric lines, filling in otherwise normal Crumbesque drawings, reflecting an obsession with filling every last centimeter of white space.[citation needed]


############

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/illustrated-ascent-mental-illness-kelly-mitchell


For a while, Charles created his text only comics but transitioned once more from all text comics to all illustration comics. This example from Charles’ final works contains nothing but detailed figures and drawings that create the appearance of writing from a distance.

There is nothing random or scattered about these images. They are aligned as writing would be including the spaces and gaps. This is a very deliberate attempt to approximate writing. Where there is order and symmetry, there is a plan and design.

As Charles’ ability to focus his thoughts failed him, he could no longer clearly discern the images so he had nothing to draw. The ideas remained and he was able to translate into dialogue; pages and pages of dialogue. Eventually, the images blurred to the point that dialogue was no longer adequate. The translation changed to the appearance of a blurred reflection of writing. He could no longer discern all of the details but he still had something to say.

Charles filled notebook after notebook, from edge to edge, both the fronts and backs of the pages, with these figures. There is no doubt that this seemingly obsessive activity brought him relief and peace of mind. He may or may not have understood why.

To the uninformed, the pages and pages of figure drawings are the scribblings of a madman. In reality, this is the incredible effort of a driven artist to continue communicating his ideas to the best of his ability before they are lost forever. Whether he knew it or not, he was still communicating his ideas, still putting them to rest.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2025 04:49PM by anybody.

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Posted by: zliska ( )
Date: January 11, 2025 10:55PM

Thank you for that suggestion.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: January 12, 2025 02:22AM

Ah, whitespace! Gracias

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: January 12, 2025 04:51AM


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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: February 05, 2025 04:57PM

I definitely agree. For too long a time, I was an editor of government intelligence reports that had to be produced for a presidential audience, in case any of them were read by or briefed to the US president. The whole huge paragraphs without natural breaks and accurate punctuation did not fly. It's not so much about a particular government style; the US government sticks to virtually all rules in journalistic styles used everywhere. Make the comments more readable, and everyone will rejoice.

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: February 05, 2025 05:39PM

I sussed it out by Internet searches several years ago, and according to what I THINK I found, no more than roughly 4.5 million are considered "active". This begs the question, what is "active", anyway? As it turns out, a person is considered active if he or she attends sacrament meeting at least once a month. That's a very low bar, indeed.

How about the full magilla of Mormonism? You know, tithing payment, donating fast offerings, keeping a temple recommend, etc? That's just over 2 million.

Self-identification as Mormon: Approximately 30-35% of baptized members do not/no longer/never have self-identified as Mormon. There are still a huge number of those individuals don't even know they're members, thanks to bait-and-switch and tricky-dicky missionaries and their shenanigans.

And, anything else is classified as "less active", actually meaning "inactive".

As for success in Africa, I was posted for 2.5 years in Kinshasa, DR Congo, where they now have a Mormon temple just a block from where my flat was. I was active back then, and faithfully attended church, even though the Embassy frowned on it due to safety concerns. I can say that, yeah, a lot of people join the church there. But one has to remember that most Sub-Saharan Africans just loooove going to church. They accept any invitation given them. BUT one also has to consider that they often don't stay, because there's and endless supply of Christian churches, most featuring electric guitars and keyboards. They're infinitely more enjoyable than the Mormons and their dirges. Also, virtually no one has access to the Internet. Also, the young missionaries are predominantly Congolese, many from Rep. of Congo across the river, or from other francophone nations in Africa. The senior missionaries are all Americans, and they call the shoes and rules, one being that telling anyone about the former priesthood ban is strengstens verboten.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: January 11, 2025 08:05PM

"President Nelson repeated that claim at the April 2024 Semi-Annual General Conference."

Surely whoever wrote the talk for this brain dead parrot knows the retention rates.

Lying for the Lord is standard practice. It's a corruptive influence on everyone who goes along with it.

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Posted by: dogbloggernli ( )
Date: January 11, 2025 09:58PM

Based on the number of churches built, congregation count, and such it is usually estimated that there's somewhat over 4 million active members.

17 million is the records count and inactives are counted until they're 110 unless the church is notified of a verified death. Which is usually not what happens for inactives.

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Posted by: Kentisj ( )
Date: January 11, 2025 11:07PM

17 million members can't be wrong. Isn't that how it's meant to be understood?

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Posted by: lousyleper ( )
Date: January 12, 2025 02:09PM

Especially with all of us exmos. Watch, I would not be surprised if they count 4 to 8 times.

Once for each ordinance, birth, blessing, baptism, ordination in the Aaronic priesthood, deacon, teacher, and priest various offices in the priesthoods, and marriage, and 3 times for death.

Death of the natural body, death of the soul, and death of the soul going to outer darkness.

If it's true, it may be possible.

*chuckles*



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2025 02:10PM by lousyleper.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: January 12, 2025 02:49PM

It's far too high a number. The church is including all baptisms, even for those who dipped out within weeks. The church also includes all inactive members to some absurd age -- I think it's 110.

Reasonably active members are going to be a third or less of the church's claimed numbers.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: January 13, 2025 01:27AM

They use 110 as the age cutoff because a small but clearly nonzero number of people make it past age 100, but it is something like 1 person in a hundred million makes it past 110. So, at age 110, LDS Inc is willing to assume you are probably dead.

I also use one third as my rule of thumb for estimating actual active membership of the church. I’m starting to think that might be a little high now, but I still think it is close enough for government work, as they say. The line between active and inactive members is pretty fuzzy on the margin.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: January 13, 2025 05:10AM

Yes, one-third is my rule of thumb as well, but I'm also starting to suspect that may be too high.

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Posted by: lousyleper ( )
Date: January 12, 2025 04:22PM

I doubt it though. What a jump in membership, they will say! It's the Lard's true church! Look at all the new people coming in!

Ha.... I never paid attention to the numbers, but now that I am out, things just do not add up, stats wise. It's all inflated. Bunch of liars.

Especially with the CPA's filing in and declaring everything is OK financially. Of course your audits are OK! Most likely you go enough to pay off your houses, and then some.

Where are the swimming pools???

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Posted by: Kentish ( )
Date: January 12, 2025 06:04PM

The church claim 17 million members but most attendance numbers I see are a percentage of those members whose records are held at the ward office. The 17 million number includes anyone baptized and under 110. They have no idea where the missing millions even live. People like a family member who joined in the 1960s, left after 3 months, and does not even live in the country where he is presumed to be living his 110 years. He isn't even aware that he is sill counted as a member. Back in the day I was exed at my request as that so long ago was the only way I knew to make the break and to voice my reasons Gor look raving to a captive audience. Presumably I am still on the record somewhere as some years later I was visited by the local bishop, a new one, who said he was making the rounds to visit everyone he had z record of. The numbers are phony.

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Posted by: Kentish ( )
Date: January 12, 2025 06:16PM

Freudian slip. No, I was not raving. I was asked if I had anything to say (to this captive audience) and proceeded to take plenty of time to make my reasons for leaving clear.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: January 13, 2025 05:50AM

The 17 million number is for member consumption. The stretch required to believe it is small compared to what it takes to believe much of the doctrine.

Which is why I'm on a strict Mormonism regimen to keep my mind limber.

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Posted by: Sacred Squirrel ( )
Date: February 04, 2025 05:00AM

What is the real figure? I suspect it is about 10% so probably 1.7 million active members.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: February 04, 2025 09:58AM

This is discussed here regularly. 10% is too low. There are 30K+ wards and they need a minimum number of actual active members to function.

The estimate I have used for years is one third of the claimed members are active - somewhat more in the US, somewhat less internationally. I am beginning to suspect that is a little high, and it might be closer to 25% to 30%, but a third is close enough for government work, as they say.

The definition of "active" is ambiguous, so the number of active members is a pretty mushy number. In any case, "one third of what the LDS Church claims" is way closer to reality than the "17 million" number LDS Inc uses.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: February 04, 2025 11:43PM

It's like hiring 100 employees but only 30 show up for work. You tell everyone you have a workforce of 100.

Payroll is a little different because the employees pay you...

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