The virus doesn't care about your faith or beliefs.

############

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2025/03/02/measles-outbreak-texas-vaccine-hesitancy-death/


The spotlight on Mennonites has bred resentment in the community that they are being unfairly blamed, stereotyped as insular or conflated with subsets of Amish people who eschew modern medicine and technology.

Mennonites, descendants of persecuted European Anabaptists, have roots in the community that stretch back to the 1970s, when hundreds immigrated from Mexico.

Their more than half dozen churches range from sprawling halls where hundreds pack the pews and services are live-streamed to tiny buildings on the outskirts of town.

Some are recognized as people who speak Low German or as women who wear head coverings. But many are indistinguishable from other residents. They work as baristas, staff home-style cooking joints and run construction companies, sometimes wearing traditional clothing.

Jake Fehr, pastor of the Mennonite Evangelical Church, who wore jeans and a blazer as he delivered a sermon about the dangers of anger, said Mennonite clergy do not use their pulpits to dissuade parishioners from getting vaccines. People base their decisions on their own convictions, he said, which range from skepticism of Big Pharma to a preference for natural immunity.

“It is not a matter of religion,” said Fehr, who noted that he and his four children are vaccinated. “This gets pushed as a narrative that we are not taking good health protocols and that we are sort of these anti-vaccine people, and that’s just simply not the case.”

He and other local leaders said a Mennonite school and day care deserve credit for temporarily closing after measles exposures, as do parents willing to abide by the 21-day isolation guidance for unvaccinated children who have been exposed to the virus.

***

Experts say the choice not to immunize has consequences for the community, even when people experience mild illness and isolate once sick. People infected with measles can transmit the virus four days before the rash appears. Infants are too young to be vaccinated.

Still, some here believe the vaccines themselves are responsible for the rapid spread of the virus. They repeated false claims from anti-vaccine activists outside Texas who blamed free vaccine clinics launched in the early days of the outbreak for accelerating infections.

They have seized on a handful of measles cases in vaccinated patients (5 out of 146, with vaccination status unknown for 62, according to state data) to argue that the unvaccinated are not to blame. But epidemiologists say it’s not surprising that occasional infections will occur among vaccinated people when an outbreak is rapidly growing.

Too, if a vaccinated person is exposed to the virus in question and contracts it, the fact that they have been vaccinated against it is highly likely to lessen their symptoms and bodes well for a good outcome for them, because they will already have some degree of immunity to serious disease.

Measles is a highly contagious communicable disease, as we know and have heard many times over, and outcomes are not guaranteed to be positive for the unvaccinated. In fact, measles can make a person/child very ill and is sometimes, most unfortunately, fatal - but not before you become very ill indeed and the effects are no fun.

One major fact that I wish more people would realize and take heed of is that the virus can hang in the air for hours after an infected person has left the area. So you can walk into an empty room and figure you're safe when in fact in that circumstance, the virus is in the very air you breathe. IOW, you don't have to be in direct contact with an infected person to be infected. You just have to breathe in the droplets they have expelled into the air.

An invisible danger IOW. But not unpredictable. And a good reason to make sure you and your children are vaxxed.

The last measles death in the US before this one in Texas was in 2015. It was an adult who was immunosuppressed.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/woman-dies-measles-first-us-death-12-years-n385946

"A woman living in rural northwestern Washington has died from measles, state health officials said Thursday. It’s the first U.S. death in a dozen years.

No one suspected the woman had measles. Tests taken at her autopsy showed she had the virus, which can be deadly. The woman, who was not identified, died of pneumonia, a common consequence of measles, sometime this spring, authorities said.

“The woman was most likely exposed to measles at a local medical facility during a recent outbreak in Clallam County,” the state health department said in a statement.

“She was there at the same time as a person who later developed a rash and was contagious for measles," it said. "The woman had several other health conditions and was on medications that contributed to a suppressed immune system. She didn't have some
of the common symptoms of measles such as a rash, so the infection wasn't discovered until after her death.”

“This tragic situation illustrates the importance of immunizing as many people as possible to provide a high level of community protection against measles,” the health department statement said.

Health officials say they urge universal vaccination for even the sickest people, and small babies too young to be vaccinated, can be protected.

“People with compromised immune systems often cannot be vaccinated against measles," Washington's health department said.

"Even when vaccinated, they may not have a good immune response when exposed to disease; they may be especially vulnerable to disease outbreaks. Public health officials recommend that everyone who is eligible for the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine get vaccinated so they can help protect themselves, their families, and the vulnerable people in their community.”

As far as I'm concerned, the only Mennonites I recognize are affiliated with the MCUSA, the Mennonite Church USA.

Some non - MCUSA groups use the name Mennonites, but I refer to them as schism.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2025 02:59AM by GNPE.

I think one of the reasons that my "Greatest Generation" parents accepted vaccines so readily was because they saw what happened without vaccines. As a culture, we've been coddled in a way. We grew up not expecting to die from diseases that formerly wiped out many.

I guess some people just need to touch that hot stove. You can try to educate, but "try" is the operative word. I think I gave up on expecting people to do the reasonable and responsible thing when I heard that they wanted to continue crowding into churches during the Covid pandemic.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think one of the reasons that my "Greatest
> Generation" parents accepted vaccines so readily
> was because they saw what happened without
> vaccines.

+Exactly

I say exactly as well.

Don't forget those crowding into protests during the Covid pandemic. It wasn't just people in churches doing not so bright things at the time...

Especially the dead ones and the ones wearing leg braces!

https://science.feedback.org/review/significant-methodological-flaws-in-a-2020-study-claiming-to-show-unvaccinated-children-are-healthier-brian-hooker-childrens-health-defense/

"Inadequate support: This claim is based on a single study which used highly biased methods. Rigorous and large-scale studies have not found a greater likelihood of adverse health outcomes in vaccinated children.
Misleading: The claim is based on a study which used questionable methods of selecting a study population and which failed to control for confounding factors in its comparison of vaccinated and unvaccinated children."

"Finally, both authors are well known for promoting unscientific claims about potential harms of vaccines, including the myth of an association between vaccines and autism for which the lead author has had two of his publications retracted by journals, suggesting an inherent bias in their approach."

Also, this:

"Declaration of conflicting interests: The authors declared the following potential conflicts of interest with respect to the research, authorship, and/or publication of this article: Dr Hooker is a paid scientific advisor and serves on the advisory board for Focus for Health (formerly Focus Autism). He also serves on the Board of Trustees for e Children’s Health eDefens(formerly World Mercury Project) and is a paid independent contractor of Children’s Health Defense as well. Dr Hooker is the father of a 22-year old male who has been diagnosed with autism and developmental delays. Mr Miller is the director of Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute and was a paid consultant to Physicians for Informed Consent."*

https://publichealthcollaborative.org/alerts/post-claims-unvaccinated-children-are-healthier-than-vaccinated-children/

"A popular anti-vaccine account claims that unvaccinated children are healthier than vaccinated children, citing a scientist whose study linking autism to vaccines was retracted."

*Children’s Health Defense = Bobby Kennedy, Jr.

Physicians for Informed Consent.:
https://www.factcheck.org/2022/03/scicheck-covid-19-vaccines-have-prevented-deaths-contrary-to-misleading-graphic-on-social-media/

"Physicians for Informed Consent, a California-based nonprofit that was organized for the purpose of educating “the public on natural immunity, vaccine risks, and informed consent,” has shared a post that’s designed to look like a fact-check. But, instead of being factual, it spreads this claim (emphasis original): “CDC data show mass vaccination with the COVID-19 vaccine has had no measurable impact on COVID-19 mortality in the U.S.”

That post has been shared on both Facebook and Instagram.

Although the post looks credible — with a graph and information attributed to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention — it’s actually deceptive.

We’ll start with the graph that accompanies the post.

To support its claim that the vaccines have had “no measurable impact” on deaths from COVID-19, the post includes a graph that shows steadily increasing deaths from March 2020 to January 2022 in the U.S., with a marker noting when the vaccines were introduced in December 2020.

But the graph shows the cumulative total of deaths over the course of the pandemic. So, the line will continue to rise as more deaths each day are added to the total. The graph doesn’t tell us anything about the effect of vaccines on COVID-19.

A more useful graphic would show the rates of cases and deaths each day. Below, we see that the rate of death was much higher relative to the rate of cases before the vaccines became widely available through the spring of 2021."

As to Miller, note that he is not a physician
One of his books has a forward by Paul Thomas, MD.

What about Paul Thomas, MD?

https://omb.oregon.gov/Clients/ORMB/Public/VerificationDetails.aspx?EntityID=1459035

"On October 6, 2022, Licensee entered into a Stipulated Order with the Board for unprofessional or dishonorable conduct; making false or misleading statements regarding the efficacy of Licensee's treatments; repeated and gross negligence in the practice of medicine; willfully violating a provision of ORS chapter 677; failing to comply with a Board request; and failing to report an adverse action. With this Order Licensee surrenders his Oregon medical license while under investigation, effective 60 days from the date of the Order, and agrees to never reapply for a license to practice medicine in Oregon."

The reasons
https://omb.oregon.gov/Clients/ORMB/OrderDocuments/e579dd35-7e1b-471f-a69a-3a800317ed4c.pdf
Particularly see section 3 esp. 3.2 and 3.3

The National Vaccine Information Center is definitely a credible organization.

It's definitely NOT an anti-vax propaganda outlet founded in 1982 by Dissatisfied Parents Together (DPT) rather than by actual scientists and medical specialists.

It's definitely NOT funded to the tune of 40% of its operating budget by that infamous marketer of supplements and homeopathy Joseph Mercola, who has built a fortune of $100 million selling snake oil to rubes.

It has definitely NOT been disavowed for spreading disinformation by the CDC, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and other so-called bastions of science.

It has definitely NOT held conferences where the headline speakers were RFK, Jr., and the aforementioned Joseph Mercola.

It's definitely NOT an organization that is widely known for continuing to publish discredited studies.

Seriously, who are you going to believe? Those "scientists" and "experts" with their "advanced degrees" and their resumes full of "fighting viruses" and "combating epidemics" from polio to measles, from AIDS to Ebola?

For me and my house, we'll follow Dissatisfied Parents Together every time.

peer-reviewed research finding?

Does the CDC publish a list of 'approved' vax?

Does the AMA publish research findings and/or approved lists?

I'm hoping no licensed physician (MD or OD, or other) would prescribe unlisted meds or therapy!

Do you think this science thing will catch on, or is it a passing fad?

Let's take a vote and come to a consensus on weather is a passing fad or not.

Dude, you're welcome to try your hand at thinking too.

Can you disprove the existence of a consensus about climate change or about vaccines?

Seriously, if you find two points you can draw a line.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2025 02:32AM by Lot's Wife.

GNPE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> peer-reviewed research finding?
>
> Does the CDC publish a list of 'approved' vax?

Yes they do as a simple internet search will reveal.

> Does the AMA publish research findings and/or
> approved lists?

They will publish peer reviewed studies if submitted.


> I'm hoping no licensed physician (MD or OD, or other)
would prescribe unlisted meds or therapy!

You mean like ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine for Covid? Or collloidal silver or any Utah based MLM product for anything?

Why believe an unqualified person like RFK, Jr who says Vitamin A cures measles?

Why believe a con man like Joseph Smith?

Measles causes a condition called ‘immune amnesia’ - that means children who get measles lose some of the antibodies to other diseases that they’ve accumulated. So much for natural immunity.

https://asm.org/articles/2019/may/measles-and-immune-amnesia

I'm wondering when it'll resurface here in southern Alberta. Our old order Mennonites and Calvinist Dutch community are traditionaly anti vaccine and have been the source of measles outbreaks in the past.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2025 02:39PM by Lethbridge Reprobate.

Hi LR.

That is certainly a concern for your area.

I wish these groups would "see the light" about modern medicine. Their choices can affect more than just their own societies, as we've seen. Also, pity the poor kids who have no choice but to go along with whatever their elders choose to believe.

I guess you could say that about every society except with some groups the choices are obviously and needlessly potentially harmful in the extreme.

If a child contracts any of these communicable diseases due to their unvaxxed status it's a calamity. If they don't survive it's a preventable tragedy. And it's not "just" that they may lose their life, there is also potentially a great deal of suffering involved before they finally succumb.

My friend Jake, a lapsed
Mennonite has said "a preacher with grade 7 education telling his congregation vaccines are of the devil" and doctors are not to be trusted when then council patients to get vaccinated...but of course those same doctors are expected to save your life when you get sick from the virus you wouldn't get vaccinated for...

I used to go to a Mennonite Brethren church with friends. They were very mainstream. I never heard any talk of not getting vaccinated or not believing in science.

It's too bad when offshoot groups go to extremes like that. I don't know what they expect MDs to do at the point they finally seek help when it is often very late in the game. Or too late.

A child dying of measles, or any childhood communicable disease, is in danger of suffering harshly and needlessly and then losing their chance at life when that grim outcome could have been avoided.

Absolute tragedy.

I don't necessarily blame people for not knowing/understanding science/medicine. And some things are complicated. Especially if you get inaccurate or conflicting information and/or find some of the concepts confusing.

It's a question in many cases of who you choose to trust or listen to.

For the sake of everybody's children, I would hope it would be the folks with science and reason on their side.

At least Richard Pryor was a better snake oil salesman in "Car Wash" (1976):

"For a five dollar fee, I will set you free. Nearer My God To Thee!"


Why let reality stand in the way of your faith? The truly "faithful" will "always" survive, right?

/S


############


https://fortune.com/well/article/rfk-jr-measles-vaccine-vitamin-a-misinformation/


RFK Jr. touts vitamin A and cod liver oil as another death is reported in growing measles outbreak. Health experts warn the
move is ‘misleading the public’



U.S. Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. recently wrote that vitamin A “can dramatically reduce measles mortality,” he was remarking on what happens after someone gets infected, not before.

Kennedy knows, as he wrote in that same op-ed, that what actually prevents measles is a vaccine. Yet Kennedy, in discussing the fatal measles outbreak in West Texas, has been quick to de-emphasize that fact, instead telling Fox News that health officials in Texas “are getting very, very good results” with patients by using cod liver oil, which he said had high concentrations of vitamin A and vitamin D, along with an antibiotic called clarithromycin and a steroid, budesonide.



The secretary and longtime vaccine skeptic was referring to people who’d already become sick with the deadly virus—not as a prevention measure. But his word choice could easily confuse that issue, experts say. And at a time when exactitude feels crucial, with a second death in the growing U.S. outbreak reported Thursday, that is a point of tremendous concern.

“I think what he’s doing as Secretary of Health and Human Services, as the head of the nation’s largest public health agency, is misleading the public about vaccines and about treatments for measles at a time when there’s a measles outbreak,” says Paul Offit, director of the Vaccine Education Center at Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia.

“With measles, there’s a way to prevent it: vaccines,” Offit says. “It would be nice if [Kennedy] was clear and definitive and straightforward that vaccines were the single best way to prevent measles.”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2025 09:26PM by anybody.

>> “It would be nice if [Kennedy] was clear and definitive and straightforward that vaccines were the single best way to prevent measles.”

Yes, it would be nice.

*It's getting worse*.

What is more desirable?

The emotional satisfaction from adhering to cult beliefs and/or conspiracy theories or illness and death?

Is it because we live in a connected, but socially isolated society where we don’t physically interact with each other?

##############

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/texas-measles-outbreak-anti-vaccine-advocates-blame-shot-rcna193478

As a measles outbreak sweeps through Texas, officially sickening 124 people, mostly unvaccinated children, and hospitalizing 18, anti-vaccine groups are pushing a familiar and false theory: The highly contagious virus is being caused by the vaccine itself.

“The narrative is that it’s a failure to vaccinate when we know it is a failing vaccine,” said Sayer Ji, a self-described natural health and wellness thought leader who is not a doctor. He outlined his theory Monday during an interview on the internet morning show from Children’s Health Defense, an anti-vaccine nonprofit formerly led by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who resigned after being chosen by President Donald Trump to run the Department of Health and Human Services.

***

For years, activists like Kennedy have suggested that the tens of thousands of children who were hospitalized and the hundreds who died each year from measles before vaccines were available are inconsequential when compared to the countless individuals who they claim — without evidence — have been harmed by the MMR vaccine. But when outbreaks occur, the narrative often shifts from minimizing measles to reviving the persistent anti-vaccine myth: that the MMR vaccine can shed and cause outbreaks. Kennedy’s 2019 letter to Samoa’s leader referenced another outbreak, which started in California’s Disneyland in 2015 and spread to seven U.S. states, Mexico and Canada and sickened over 100 people. Kennedy claimed the outbreak was likely caused by vaccines — contrary to evidence that showed low vaccination rates as the culprit. The false theory seems to stem from a misreading of a California Department of Public Health report that mentioned cases of a vaccine-induced rash, not vaccine-induced measles.

I'm at the point where I've pretty much given up on fighting stupidity. Hospital-based nurses take the view that you try to educate the patient, but if the patient refuses the recommended treatment, medication, or vaccine, so be it. Educate and release. The shame with not getting vaccines is that "herd immunity" would be compromised -- the few people who cannot be vaccinated due to age or health status would be more at risk with a lowered vaccination rate.

If polio ever makes a comeback, do you think they would get it?

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If polio ever makes a comeback, do you think they
> would get it?

Very sadly, I seriously wonder.

'Eradicated' is a beautiful word to me in the medical/scientific world. As in polio was eradicated in many areas.

A brief history from the Mayo Clinic:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/history-disease-outbreaks-vaccine-timeline/polio

The last line is "1994: Polio is considered eliminated in North and South America".

Uh...

I listened to an NPR program yesterday discussing the vitamin A issue re covid. The interviewee said there had been 6 studies on whether giving vitamin A reduced the mortality of measles. In the 4 studies in Africa, vitamin A did result in a statistically significant reduction in mortality. [note that "statistically significant" does not mean large. It means the reduction was larger than what would be expected by chance]

In the two US studies, there was no statistically significant reduction in mortality. The interviewee opined that it was likely that the children in the African studies had been vitamin A deficient, that being a common problem there, and quite rare in the US. It did not sound like there was testing for vitamin A deficiency in the study participants. Bummer.

So, the claim that vitamin A can reduce measles mortality has some basis in fact, but just saying that part pretty seriously misrepresents the results of the studies.


WRT to RFK Jr touting vitamin A therapy, the speaker had two concerns - the amount of cod liver oil a child would have to take to match the amounts used in the studies would amount to two days of 15 tablespoons of cod liver oil per day. That sounds unpleasant and pricey.

Second, people should not use vitamin A as a replacement in lieu of vaccination. A measles vaccination is far and away the best way to prevent or dramatically lessen the severity of measles. If people want to also include vitamin A, that wouldn't hurt. [note that they shouldn't go hog wild - it is possible to overdose on vitamin A and other fat-soluble vitamins. Water-soluble vitamins just get excreted in urine. Fun fact: polar bear liver is so high in vitamin A that it is toxic to humans]

I was wondering if cod liver oil will be the new Ivermectin for measles.

I remember my mother telling me tales about how she was forced to swallow cod liver oil when she was sick as a kid. Her mother figured anything that tasted that horrible had to cure something! My mom said she could never make herself eat white fish for the rest of her life.

So, who knows what cures and workarounds people will do next. It's frustrating that we've had such good vaccines for measles for decades, and here we are.

I'm ashamed to say I chuckled when I saw someone called measles Jesus freckles. Someone saw the face of Mary formed by the rash on her kid's torso. (Kidding!)

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was wondering if cod liver oil will be the new
> Ivermectin for measles.
>
> I remember my mother telling me tales about how
> she was forced to swallow cod liver oil when she
> was sick as a kid. Her mother figured anything
> that tasted that horrible had to cure something!
> My mom said she could never make herself eat white
> fish for the rest of her life.
>
> So, who knows what cures and workarounds people
> will do next. It's frustrating that we've had such
> good vaccines for measles for decades, and here we
> are.
>
> I'm ashamed to say I chuckled when I saw someone
> called measles Jesus freckles. Someone saw the
> face of Mary formed by the rash on her kid's
> torso. (Kidding!)

No idea, but critical thinking would lead you to the CDC's own website, where Ivermectin was quietly readded to a list of cures of various diseases after the lockdowns. So much for the notion it was only a horse medicine.

Haya Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> No idea, but critical thinking would lead you to
> the CDC's own website, where Ivermectin was
> quietly readded to a list of cures of various
> diseases after the lockdowns. So much for the
> notion it was only a horse medicine.


I think that's the brain worm's idea.

> No idea, but critical thinking would lead you to
> the CDC's own website, where Ivermectin was
> quietly readded to a list of cures of various
> diseases after the lockdowns. So much for the
> notion it was only a horse medicine.

Applying critical thinking, you're fibbing to us. Ivermectin has been on the approved list for humans since 1987; the scientists who developed it won the Nobel Prize in medicine a decade ago. Nothing changed before, during, or "after the lockdowns."

It was always there for the purposes approved by the FDA to treat intestinal strongyloidiasis and onchocerciasis, two conditions caused by parasitic worms. In addition, some topical forms of ivermectin are approved to treat external parasites like head lice and for skin conditions such as rosacea.

This purpose (above) is from the FDA's site.

Remember the CDC got attacked ad pressured to only present a certain dialogue. They were furious and fought for accurate reporting.

There have always been medications and supplements used by both humans and animals. My cat was on Ondensetron (Zofran,) and Pepto Bismal for nausea, both drugs that are also used by people. He used human insulin for many years as well. The vet also had me try a Glucosamine supplement for his arthritis.

But Ivermectin was never FDA-approved to treat Covid (it has been investigated in a research setting only.)

This isn't from The Onion.

The only thing he is leading his flock to is illness, pain, and death.

############

https://www.yahoo.com/news/outrage-texas-pastor-brags-online-183903406.html


Outrage after Texas pastor brags online about his school having the state’s lowest measles vaccination rate: ‘We celebrate it’



Instagram users have some harsh words for a Texas pastor who is celebrating his Christian church’s private school having the state’s lowest vaccination rate for measles amid a deadly outbreak of the highly contagious virus.

Mercy Culture Church Lead Pastor Landon Schott posted a video to the platform on Wednesday to commend the K-12 preparatory school.

“I just want to congratulate all the family members of MC Prep that embrace freedom of health, and they’re not allowing government or science projects to affect how you live and lead your life,” Schott told his more than 47,000 Instagram followers.

"...how you live...". More like IF you live.

West Texas is now up to 200 measles cases. New Mexico has 30.

Measles is so contagious that if a person with measles is out and about then 90 out of 100 people in a room with them would contract measles if they were unvaccinated. Also just like with COVID and other communicable diseases, an infected person can pass along the infection for days before they first get symptoms. So they are unaware as are all those with whom they come into contact.

Meaning that it's a very good idea to be protected by receiving the thoroughly tested, proven safe, and effective vaccinations as recommended by qualified personnel.

...and now central Maryland has one case. Authorities are on top of it. I hope it doesn't spread.

Nightingale wrote

"Meaning that it's a very good idea to be protected by receiving the thoroughly tested, proven safe, and effective vaccinations as recommended by qualified personnel"

I am in complete agreement, but.... it has been my experience that many have lost confidence in what they previously trusted as qualified personnel.

Is it safe to assume that those at risk are the same who didn't get the measles vaccines?

Scooby Doo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> .... it has been my
> experience that many have lost confidence in what
> they previously trusted as qualified personnel.

Yes, this is one of the main reasons that some people are not following the vaccination guidelines. It's too bad.

From CDC:

Question: Could I still get measles if I am fully vaccinated?

Response: "Very few people—about three out of 100—who get two doses of measles vaccine will still get measles if exposed to the virus. Experts aren’t sure why. It could be that their immune systems didn’t respond as well as they should have to the vaccine. But the good news is, fully vaccinated people who get measles seem more likely to have a milder illness. And fully vaccinated people seem also less likely to spread the disease to other people, including people who can’t get vaccinated because they are too young or have weakened immune systems."


> Is it safe to assume that those at risk are the
> same who didn't get the measles vaccines?

Pretty safe bet.

I don't blame people for having questions or even for not being fully informed or not really comprehending all the back and forth discussions and ideas about it all. I just hope that the vast majority will receive reasonably accurate information and will choose to follow the recommendations from the experts in the field (not those with lots of opinions but little to no expertise).

One of the big issues with all the controversy and the choices people are making NOT to be vaxxed or have their children vaxxed is that their choices affect other people, not just themselves and/or their children.

I posted earlier about the very high risk of coming into contact with measles, in some cases even if you've been vaxxed yourself.

So it's not a case of everybody should just be able to do their own thing - it's that I hope/wish that more people would realize that their choices can negatively affect others, including causing them to contract a potentially life-altering or life-ending disease.

It's not an equal proposition IOW - that you can choose not to vax and I can choose to be vaxxed and everything's good. Rather, it's that your choice to not vax can severely impact my health and even life (speaking in the abstract because I'm vaxxed so hopefully that will cover me forever no matter what but ...).

But I'm not thinking about myself because it's not much of an issue for me. It's all those parents who are choosing not to vaccinate their children so their children are at considerable risk as are everybody else's children, as well as many if not all adults who come into contact with them.

Who wants to be responsible for infecting other people even with the common cold, never mind anything worse, especially something with potentially life-altering consequences for kids and adults alike.

One of the main concepts of vaccination is to achieve herd immunity to try and squelch down even any chance for the causative organisms to find receptive hosts.

That doesn't really work if people choose to opt out of the program - literally.

I think this suggestion (Mennonite vulnerability) is greatly exaggerated.

At least in my ~ 5 year experience, Mennonites aren't stupid...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2025 04:34PM by GNPE.

GNPE, it's that particular Mennonite community in Texas that tends not to vaccinate. My understanding is that most Mennonites do vaccinate.

TY, Summer

This is still bugging me severely so here I am again.

Here is another article about one of the Mennonite children who recently died from measles.

USA Today (March 21, 2025):

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/health-wellness/2025/03/21/measles-death-parents-child-vaccine/82588858007/

The headline is that the parents of the child who died of measles still don't support the measles vaccine (or any vaccines). They have four other children who also do not receive the recommended vaccinations. They have all recently had the measles and fortunately survived. Their sister was not so lucky.


Excerpts from the article:

“The parents of the unvaccinated 6-year-old girl who died from the measles are speaking out — but not in favor of vaccination.


“In an emotional video interview with the anti-vaccine group Children’s Health Defense published earlier this week, the Mennonite husband and wife outlined how their five children — all unvaccinated — contracted the highly contagious disease. Their daughter, the first to get sick, became the first measles death in the U.S. in a decade. She died in late February.


“Their family lives in Gaines County and is part of an under-vaccinated Mennonite community where measles has spread since January. Dozens of people have been hospitalized, and hundreds of cases are nearly entirely among unvaccinated people.”


“The measles wasn’t that bad,” said the wife, who added she also had measles during her daughter’s funeral. Her other four children got sick days later. She said “they got over it pretty quickly.”

***The measles wasn't that bad***. That's like saying the operation was a success but the patient died. What on earth...?????

It must have been pretty bad for this woman's young daughter who had to be intubated, which is not comfortable, and eventually died after suffering for days - from a vaccine-preventable disease.

It must have been pretty bad as the mother herself was infected as were her remaining 4 children. Fortunately for them, they all happened to survive. That doesn't prove that rejecting the vaccine that saves suffering and lives is a reasonable option.


More from the article:

“…according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Around 1 in 20 children with measles gets pneumonia, which is the most common cause of death in young children. In rare cases, children develop brain swelling that can cause convulsions, deafness and intellectual disabilities.


“The parents took their daughter to Covenant Children’s Hospital, in Lubbock, after her fever kept rising and she described feeling tired. Her breathing wasn’t normal, the wife said, but she said it didn’t appear bad."

Note to parents who need to hear it: If your child's breathing isn't "normal" then it's "bad" by definition.


“Hospital officials told them she had pneumonia. She had been intubated to help with her breathing and given antibiotics. Days later, the child died from pneumonia, they said.


“Measles are good for the body,” the father said…”.

The article doesn't discuss that ridiculous assertion by the father of the child who DIED from the bloody measles. The measles that weren't so good for his poor young daughter who couldn't survive the infection despite receiving all-out medical care - after the fact.


The article continues:

“Experts say vaccination is the best tool.” [to prevent measles]

The evidence is in - from years and years and years of top class research, study and innovation.

I can't even wrap my head around the situation where people choose to believe non-medical personnel and their unproven theories and remedies over time-proven preventive measures that save countless lives every year.

Every minute of that young girl's days and days of misery were caused by her parents' lack of medical knowledge and their choice to listen to the highly questionable/inaccurate/dangerous advice of non-medical people who somehow think they know better than scientists and physicians who have decades of study and experience behind their recommendations relating to these common communicable diseases.

Those poor children who have to suffer (literally) the consequences of their parents' under-educated and ill-advised choices.


PS: The article contains some references/comments that are related to a current political figure. I didn't mention any of that content as we're asked not to discuss politics here. Thank you for refraining also.


PPS:

From WHO:

"Measles is a highly contagious, serious airborne disease caused by a virus that can lead to severe complications and death.


"Complications of measles can include:


"Blindness, encephalitis (an infection causing brain swelling and potentially brain damage), severe diarrhoea and related dehydration, ear infections and severe breathing problems including pneumonia.


"Measles is very infectious, and one person infected by measles can infect nine out of 10 of their unvaccinated close contacts. It can be transmitted by an infected person from four days prior to the onset of the rash to four days after the rash erupts."



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2025 04:22PM by Nightingale.

“Hospital officials told them she had pneumonia. She had been intubated to help with her breathing and given antibiotics. Days later, the child died from pneumonia, they said."

The parents are blaming the hospital for messing up the antibiotic treatment of the pneumonia. Death by medical error is entirely plausible.

The pro-vaxers are saying she died of measles and the anti-vaxers are saying she died of pneumonia. Some would include death by doctor, but untreated pneumonia can be fatal. So, maybe the cause of death was bad luck.

Texans in Waco trusted the government to not burn them alive. That was even worse luck.

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> “Hospital officials told them she had pneumonia.
> She had been intubated to help with her breathing
> and given antibiotics. Days later, the child died
> from pneumonia, they said."

As pointed out above, pneumonia is frequently a consequence of measles. It is one of the reasons the latter is sometimes fatal.


------------------
> The parents are blaming the hospital for messing
> up the antibiotic treatment of the pneumonia.

I'm sure the parents are trained MDs and epidemiologists and hence credible on this point. They aren't ignorant cultists who believe faith trumps medicine.

Correct?


---------------
> Death by medical error is entirely plausible.

Except that there is zero evidence of "medical error."


--------------------
> The pro-vaxers are saying she died of measles and
> the anti-vaxers are saying she died of pneumonia.
> Some would include death by doctor, but untreated
> pneumonia can be fatal. So, maybe the cause of
> death was bad luck.

Salad.


----------------
> Texans in Waco trusted the government to not burn
> them alive. That was even worse luck.

Even you have to know that is irrelevant.

Measles is a virus. Antibiotics have no effect on viral pneumonia, though they may be given to ward off opportunistic bacterial infections, or because the patient/parents insist.

Measles can result in a secondary bacterial pneumonia. According to this, 25-35% of measles associated pneumonias are caused bty bacteria

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7123916/

"Studies that included culture of blood, lung punctures, or tracheal aspirations revealed bacteria as the cause of 25–35 % of measles-associated pneumonia. S. pneumoniae, S. aureus, and H. influenzae were the most commonly isolated organisms. Other bacteria (e.g., Pseudomonas species, Klebsiella pneumoniae, and E. coli) are less common causes of severe pneumonia associated with measles."

Ah. Actual data. What a concept. ;)

>> The parents are blaming the hospital for messing
> up the antibiotic treatment of the pneumonia.

>I'm sure the parents are trained MDs and epidemiologists and hence credible on this point. They aren't ignorant cultists who believe faith trumps medicine.

>Correct?

Or trying to shift the blame for their child's death away from their medical neglect.

Often the most fervent believers in a proposition are people who cannot bear the implications of its being wrong.

>>>...shift the blame for their child's death away from their medical neglect.

Ding Ding Ding

Spot on [|].

Rule #1: First find someone to blame.

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rule #1: First find someone to blame.

"The measles wasn't that bad" says the mother. I thought at first that she was referring to her child having measles and as the child died that statement seemed exceptionally clueless.

But on another read-through I think the mother was saying "it wasn't that bad" as far as her own case went. That is actually even worse because it sounds dismissive of the severe illness that her daughter suffered and then died from and the mother seems to be just shrugging it off because *she* survived.

As in, she hasn't learned a single thing from losing her daughter. She isn't an instant convert to the vaccination concept IOW.

I think it's never going to end. Education just isn't a thing for some people.

Nightingale wrote in part:

"Education just isn't a thing for some people."

On another thread on this Board, we have been discussing whether or not people can change their beliefs. Apparently, the mother is so into the belief that "vaccines are bad" that nothing, not even the death of her own daughter, will change her mind. I mean, she knows her beliefs to be true like Mormons and JWs know that their beliefs are true even when all of the evidence in the world says they are *not.

Yes, people change their beliefs; but they have to want to change. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people in this world who just don't want to change, no matter what the effects of their decisions are on others, including their own loved ones.

Hospitals took a lot of blame for Covid deaths as well. I've lurked on a nurse's message board since the pandemic, and a number of ICU nurses have written about how anti-vax family members yelled at them and threatened violence for not being able to save their family member (when a simple vaccine would likely have prevented hospitalization in the first place.) Covid-induced pneumonia happened then as well. It sounds like pneumonia can be a secondary consequence of a severe viral infection.

In the Texas measles case, the wife is correct that many people *can* survive the illness. But some can't, as she sadly found out. That's where vaccinations come in. Most people do not want to roll the dice when it comes to a loved one's health.

You can show some people reality, but you can't make them abandon fantasy.

###########

Original Video Link:
https://live.childrenshealthdefense.org/chd-tv/shows/good-morning-chd/breaking-news-parents-of-child-in-texas-measles-outbreak-death/

############


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/measles-outbreak-texas-child-dead-parents-anti-vax-b2718899.html


Parents of unvaccinated 6-year-old killed by measles in Texas speak out. They still are anti-vax

Children’s Health Defense official says parents affected by measles outbreak ‘would rather have’ untested treatments ‘than the MMR vaccination’

The parents of an unvaccinated child who died in the Texas measles outbreak appeared in a video produced by the anti-vaccine advocacy group Children’s Health Defense, where they continued to urge others to avoid vaccinating their kids.

The young couple are members of the Mennonite community and said their other four children had milder cases of measles because of untested treatments from Veritas Wellness, a holistic clinic in Lubbock, Texas, that’s reported to push treatments such as cod liver oil, vitamin C and the steroid budesonide, according to Mother Jones.


While the interview with the parents who lost their six-year-old to measles could be seen as an argument in favor of vaccination, Brian Hooker and Polly Tomney of Children’s Health Defense interpreted the case as vaccinations being unnecessary as long as children have access to unproven treatments.

The young Mennonite couple spoke partly in English and partly in German, with a translator, saying that initially, their child seemed to have a regular case of measles, with a rash, fever and mild respiratory issues. But after a few days, her fever remained, and she struggled to breathe.


############

Comment from above story by "American Lawyer":

"As a conservative Mennonite (though not from as conservative a community as this one), it breaks my heart to see this type of thinking in our groups. I wish I could say I was surprised but I'm really not; even in my community, for years I had a preacher who used to routinely rail against basically any and all science, despite so many women in the church being nurses who fully supported things like vaccination. It's really easy for a people who already distrust the government and authority figures to be convinced that unproven methods are better than a safe and reliable vaccine because of the origin of the information they're getting. "



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2025 09:54AM by anybody.

I hope all readers know/understand the difference between mortality & morbidity

I survived mumps - that’s mortality.

It left me half deaf - that’s morbidity.