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Posted by: slskipper ( )
Date: April 28, 2025 05:13PM

really believe? As in: what can you really say in Sunday School that will not get you hauled in to the bishop's office?

Examples: the BOM being actual history
Examples of any current GA being wrong about something
Curse of Cain

and hundreds more. The Church (TM) has stopped talking about all of these- and yet if anyone tries to talk about them, they will swiftly be escorted out of the room. So how does one cope?

Thanks.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: April 29, 2025 12:32PM

I passed your post to my personally configured ChatGPT and here is it's reply.

------------------

It is known that when encountering Mormon (LDS) belief, the surface layer and the deeper, tacit layer often diverge sharply.

Let us unfold:

---

**1. What Mormons *say* they believe** (the public "first layer"):

- **The Book of Mormon** (BoM) is an actual historical account of real peoples in ancient America.
- **The Prophet** and **General Authorities** (GAs) are guided by God and thus not easily subject to error in doctrinal matters.
- **Scripture is reliable** and authoritative.
- **The Church is led by Jesus Christ himself** through living prophets.
- **Official doctrine is what is taught in General Conference and the Standard Works** (Bible, BoM, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price).
- **Racism or past teachings like the Curse of Cain are explained as "past mistakes" of men but no longer reflect current doctrine.**
- **Doubt is normal, but "doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith."**

This layer is presented with **linear axiomatic faith**: If X was revealed by a prophet, X is reliable until a higher prophet says otherwise.

---

**2. What is *really* believed or enforced** (the hidden, non-linear "lived sheet"):

- **You cannot safely question the historicity of the Book of Mormon** openly in Sunday School. Even hinting that it may be "inspired fiction" is a red flag.
- **You cannot criticize or point out errors** from current General Authorities. To suggest a GA was wrong — even kindly — risks being called into disciplinary meetings.
- **You cannot discuss the full historical teaching** of the Curse of Cain doctrine openly; while repudiated quietly, talking about it risks accusations of "bringing up anti-Mormon material."
- **You cannot explore the multiple versions of the First Vision** unless framing them in ways that "strengthen faith."
- **You cannot openly discuss historical issues** like the Kinderhook Plates, the Book of Abraham's translation problems, Joseph Smith’s polyandry, etc., in normal church settings.
- **You must perform outward loyalty** to the institution, even if personal belief is nuanced or collapsing.

Thus, the functional system enforces **public orthodoxy**, while silently acknowledging complex realities only in private, approved spaces (like limited-access essays on the Church website, or one-on-one).

---

**How does one cope?**


**Coping mechanisms known from memory:**

- **Code-switching:** Speak the language of faith in church; explore questions privately.
- **Compartmentalization:** Create psychic "rooms" for sacred belief and critical analysis, without forcing them to fully overlap.
- **Selective honesty:** Emphasize shared faith principles (e.g., love, service) over controversial histories.
- **Quiet solidarity:** Seek others who "know but do not say," forming subtle alliances without threatening the public order.
- **Strategic silence:** Sometimes saying less is the truest form of survival.
- **Existential reframing:** See the Church not as a perfect vehicle, but as a mythic body echoing humanity’s deep need for communal meaning, even if the particulars are flawed.

---

**Archetypal Pattern:**

In myth, this echoes **the "Twilight Kingdom"**: a realm where the laws seem bright and clear, but the true powers move in shadow. It is the **Labyrinth** — where Theseus must find Ariadne’s thread to navigate without being consumed.

**Thus coping becomes a form of sacred navigation**: to honor the light while moving skillfully through the grey.

---

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Posted by: Totally Stoked ( )
Date: May 01, 2025 06:09PM

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I passed your post to my personally configured
> ChatGPT

The great God GPT.

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Posted by: forestpal not logged in ( )
Date: May 02, 2025 06:22PM

Elder Berry, after a lifetime of trying as hard as I could to remain in the Mormon church, I finally reached a beaking point--well, many, many breaking points. I can’t possibly tell all the details of my struggles, but here are a few that had little to do with the doctrinal contradictions, and seemingly random changes (later discovered to be money-driven, not Christianity-driven, not family-driven, not faith-driven.)

I am too exhausted after reading your brief analysis of “how to cope.” My reality was that there was no way to cope with being in a cult, without paying the price of my valuable time (valuable to me and my family), my career (being a divorced woman in a man’s world, as sole financial support of my children), the love and closeness of my children (good, Bible-raised Christians, who were questioning Joseph Smith. I was paying the the price of losing “Heaven” (the Celestial Kingdom) forever, because my Mormon husband abandoned me and his children. In reality, we were not to blame for that, yet I and other divorced females in the Single Adults group were blamed and judged at every Mormon encounter. There never was any “community” of support that you mention--not for us--and our situation was only made worse.

Yes, this is all doctrine: The Temple, The Celestial Kingdom, only Temple marriages are “forever,” men and their Holy Priesthood have dominion over women, men will have multiple wives in the CK, because polygamy is part of “God’s Plan of Salvation”, members will not get into the CK unless they pay 10% of their MONEY, and so on. It follows naturally that current cult members act on these “principles” and “doctrines”, believing that these come directly from God, through His Prophet Joseph Smith, et al through Russel Nelson.

It was all too exhausting! I can deal with ambiguity, but not with nonsense. My grandfather, who was a in the First Presidency told us grandchildren that no one knows for sure exactly what the Hereafter will be like. “No one has ever died, gone there, and come back to tell about it.” I was fine with that, for several years, as an active, temple-married Mormon. When my children started learning fear, and experiencing brainwashing, then coertion, they reacted to it, and luckily came to talk to me about it. Later, we experienced abuse--and I admitted to my kids that they were right all along, and we all officially resigned together. I prayed about this, and we had no choice but to leave. We have thrived, since.

Trying to imagine our loving God wanting an unloving, abusive, blindly judgmental, adamant, elitist, sexist lifestyle for His dear children, in which families are separated now and in the hereafter, creates an explosiion of cognitive dissonance that I cannot reconcile. Never. Never. There is no “cope” >^..^<

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: May 02, 2025 08:44PM

Like getting scammed and they scammers believe they are not scammers.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: April 29, 2025 11:15PM

That's why they rely on their 'CULT of personality, ' so any significant question is regarded as offensive and troubling.


Obvious in light of the changing directions (in place of actual doctrine). Remember: the definition of "doctrine" is: What is taught; ergo the Mormons disavow - repudiate the use or application of "doctrine".

IDK what they've done with the Particles of Faith or what H.B. Brown wrote in 'Profiles of a Profit', but it shouldn't be said in the presence of youth, children, or those seeking consistency or transparency.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2025 08:28PM by GNPE.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: April 30, 2025 07:17AM

Brown was my great grandfather and even in my devoted family there tiny cracks in some of my kins testimonies around simply following their prophet.

Rusty, does he meet any of those profiles?

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Posted by: Totally Stoked ( )
Date: May 01, 2025 06:12PM

The pre-1990 temple penalties
The blood oath to avenge Joseph Smith
Women's roles can get you in trouble

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: May 02, 2025 04:53PM

I asked ChatGPT what could get you in trouble.

It is known that the LDS Church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) maintains disciplinary boundaries based on doctrinal, behavioral, and institutional loyalty. Patterns of conflict arise when members deviate from core norms, often along theological, moral, or political lines. The following categories reflect remembered instances where members have faced institutional censure or excommunication:

### 1. **Public Dissent or Apostasy**

* **Theological challenges**: Publishing works or giving talks that contradict LDS doctrine (e.g., denying the divine calling of LDS prophets, challenging the Book of Mormon’s historicity).
* **Ordaining or promoting unauthorized priesthood roles**: As in the case of Kate Kelly, founder of Ordain Women.
* **Advocacy against church leadership**: Criticizing apostles or prophets publicly, especially while claiming revelatory authority.

### 2. **Sexual Behavior**

* **Same-sex relationships**: Acting on same-sex attraction or advocating for same-sex marriage within the Church’s moral framework.
* **Extramarital sex or adultery**: Including heterosexual relationships outside covenant marriage.
* **Pornography use or masturbation (repeatedly confessed)**: Particularly if paired with unwillingness to repent.

### 3. **Political or Social Activism**

* **Openly opposing Church stances on issues like abortion, the family, or gender roles**—especially from within leadership or teaching roles.
* **Affiliating with or promoting ideologies considered incompatible** with LDS values (e.g., polygamous sects or anti-Mormon literature).

### 4. **Spiritual Practices Outside LDS Authority**

* **Claiming personal revelation that overrides Church hierarchy**: Those who assert visions, spiritual gifts, or alternate scriptures without submission to priesthood keys.
* **Engaging in occult or New Age practices** framed as spiritual replacements to LDS teachings.

### 5. **Criminal Acts or Civil Scandal**

* **Fraud or financial dishonesty**: Especially when tied to Church status or trust (e.g., Ponzi schemes).
* **Abuse**: Physical, emotional, or sexual misconduct, especially when unrepentant or concealed.

### 6. **Participation in Other Religions or Leaving the Church Publicly**

* **Joining or promoting another faith tradition** while still claiming LDS membership.
* **Baptism into another denomination** is often grounds for formal removal.

Such cases are rarely initiated publicly by the Church; rather, members are summoned for "membership councils" (formerly disciplinary councils) when their actions are viewed as threatening the unity, purity, or authority structure of the institution.

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Posted by: Hieronymus User ( )
Date: May 03, 2025 06:59AM

CHATGPT gets it right & wrong at the same time. Right now there are openly gay people in the church on social media & their official stance on gays and things like abortion are all over the place. Mormons are big into some New Age things like crystals and even reiki. They don't get in trouble for it.

The church has conflicting stances on abuse. They pay good money to keep it hidden.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: May 03, 2025 09:58AM

ChatGPT is an anti me thinks.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: May 03, 2025 02:10AM


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Posted by: unconventional ( )
Date: May 03, 2025 04:40AM

How to respond?

Do what social contract theory says is your duty:

Find another tribe.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: May 03, 2025 09:59AM

Perfectly human thing to do.

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