Exactly. John is a grifter. No different than the people who do political pod casts. His niche is people who have trauma from being in the LDS Church.
I don’t think John wants to see the church destroyed but he wants to see it reform. He seems to love The Community of Christ Church. I think he wants the LDS Church to become like that.
Anyways he’s making six figures doing something he likes and it seems to be sustainable. He’s been doing it for awhile.
The church drains its member of their money and time. Untrained Mormon bishops give invasive interviews to children and adults. Members have been judged and found wanting for things beyond their control. There are far healthier Christian denominations that a family can belong to.
I was thinking about that question too. My tentative conclusion is he doesn't know what the non-Mormon world is like.
He grew up cossetted in Mormon communities, did a mission, was educated at the Lard's University and then did a (dubious) Ph.D. at USU in Zion North. Most of the time he spent "in the lone and dreary world" was spent while he was still in Mormon communities and even attending LDS services.
The question therefore arises whether he knows much about non-Mormons, their families, their social activities, and their contributions to society. I know that I learned more about how healthy families function and how "worldly" communities organize when I was completely cut off from Mormonism and Mormon people. I'm not sure Delhin's ever had such experiences.
In short, he may not have any way of judging whether Mormonism is a net positive or a net negative. He may simply, intuitively, not want to condemn the people he knows and likes.
Yes, oddly clueless though for a guy whose gravy train is problems within and related to TSCC.
I think in truth TSCC does very little good, if any. Much of the things people enjoy, at least in the past (social activities, friendships, etc) would likely happen some other organic way if TSCC never existed, and if it hadn’t ever existed, then the systemic bad stuff wouldn’t have happened and the gaslighting antisocial group think would not have developed either.
So at a high level it would seem to me that TSCC’s societal impact is net negative, but perhaps that’s no more scientific than Dehlin’s belief.
I know what's on the bad list. I can't for the life of me figure out what is on the good list, though, as everything I think of is really bad disguised as good when I look closer.
Dehlin thinking of the old days?
I remember the relief society really was taking care of the people in the ward. As in real relief. Soups to the sick and elderly. Lots of camaraderie with the sisters and crafts to make things stretch in the home.
We had hayrides and ward breakfasts and you felt like you were part of a community. People would hang for an hour after Sunday School just talking and laughing and catching up. Maybe that was just us up in the old pioneer town in the mountains. I dunno.
By the time I got to BYU I did see a whole different Mormon church. You had to watch your back or your "friends" would turn you into the Standards Dean. It all started to get mean and so much one-upmanship.
Jesus said Dehlin is trying to serve two masters. I think I agree.
We've watched a lot of John Dehlin's Mormon Stories podcast and I'm really surprised to hear him say how he thinks the LDS church has done quite a bit of good in the world.
In one of his previous podcasts, he interviewed a young man whose wife had been gaslighted by the two women in southern Utah who were arrested and thrown in jail for child abuse.
He said how those two, plus others, made him and his family's life a living hell.
The church ordered Dehlin to take down that particular podcast or else. That might explain his sudden about face?
I guess I am a bit jaundiced by having this site for many years. This corporation sucks money and time from sincere (and gullible) people. To me, that is a definition of evil. This organization started as a con. It continues as a con - a real estate empire that cares little for its adherents. It only takes and rarely gives. It cripples peoples growth. Believing in nonsense and social isolation leads to a rather dull life in my opinion. The real world is scary in that we don’t have easy answers. We have to navigate life the best we can with our own minds and not be directed by a cult. Being cocooned in a cult may bring some sense of happiness as Dehlin supposes. It is not worth it to stay in such an organization.
I had a long talk with my former boss at the Church Office Building about my reasons for leaving the church. He knew about all the problems I mentioned, but he said, "On balance, the church does more good than it does harm." I was expecting him to explain that he'd had some spiritual experiences or something, but no. Just that it is a net positive.
I realize that the church does good for some people, and frankly, I think some people are much better off in the church. What I mean is that some personalities need that structure and set of rules. I've met a few church members, especially online, who I think would be capable of terrible things without the church's restraining influence.
For me, though, it has been a much more destructive influence in my life. No, I'm not blaming the church for all my problems. God knows I've fucked myself up enough. But I believe that the church made a lot of it worse.
So, no, it doesn't do more good than bad, except maybe in a few cases.
What strikes me about your old boss saying what he said is that the statement falls squarely into the category of rationalization. Saying that excuses not giving the "bad" any consideration or weight. And then leaves Mormons with no need to explain staying in while knowing the negative. Such an easy win for them. Hollow win, but still . . .
And as with everything they do, they are using this rationalizing statement without any data to back it up. Who did the actual study of good vs bad to sustain the conclusion? But it works because religion is definitely not science. No need to even try to back up what you say.
The common theme of the people he interviews involve them having great leaders, friendly fellowship and friendship, and great support growing up. JD features people who had ward support, plenty of church leadership opportunities and overall positive experiences. They are just bored of living the Mormon culture and suddenly discover the church has lied and hid things from them.
My experiences of trying to fit in and be accepted isn't part of JD's style. Fought church leaders (meaning I respectfully disagreed with their absolute policies) and had shitty bishops to shitty mission presidents.
I was more than happy to walk away after the church offered no support following a devastating house fire.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2025 04:43PM by messygoop.
Crappy church leaders are the best because they piss off a person and push people out when people might have otherwise stayed in. A bishop who was a good person helped keep me in when I might have quit Mormonism decades sooner while in my teens precluding me serving a mission.
Mormonism was never kind to anyone in my family unless you can count my very disabled younger brother who is the only active member except my dear daughter. My aunt asked about my mom's patriarchal blessing last week. My daughter has a copy of it and she has my PB as I was going to throw it away and decided to let her have it as I wanted her to see what mine said compared to hers. So I've had that on my mind for the past week. Haven't read them yet as my daughter has them in storage. I keep forgetting to remind her.
When describing mine to my aunt--and she is the over the top mormon one--I didn't explain well enough. In the end, my PB was my hopes and dreams and this is what I got. Everyone was shocked by my reality as my story got spread around. I was the good little mormon girl. The attitude was NOT COLLEEN. Well, here I am. And when i think about what they put a young naive girl through starting with the question about masturbation starting at age 12 (and every interview including dance cards every month), these are men of God? I've seen some stuff about polygamy on old Dr. Phil reruns this week, too. Some from the Warren Jeffs people.
What good can you find in this religion? The only good I can think of is my mom learned to quilt in R.S. and she loved doing it. BUT my mother was never accepted that well amongst the mormon women as she was an introvert and she was raised by deaf parents. Everyone considered my mom their friend, but they didn't include her. That is how the whole family was treated. My dad didn't care if he was included. As my "husband" said when my daughter talked to him about me not going--(husband doesn't either) and he said, 'your mother was never happy as a mormon." I didn't know what it was, but that is the truth.
My mom was the oldest daughter of her deaf parents and she did a lot of the work of taking care of the younger 2 and teaching them to talk and do sign language. My mom took care of her parents the rest of their lives. She helped others who had disabled children. They gravitated towards her. She wasn't perfect, but mormonism didn't work for any of us. In fact, my mom told me when they knew I wasn't going back--you are my most spiritual child--you don't need religion.
All this stuff together, the PB, and polygamy, there isn't anything good in mormonism. There are good people who are mormons, but the religion itself, NO! I don't see one good thing.
I was thinking the other day when they were going to have the announcement on the radio (I was driving) about the new prophet, etc., I thought how would it be if they actually picked someone else and not who was already chosen???? The fact Dehlin will sell his soul for the money he earns and say mormonism does good things.
For a long time after leaving the church over a decade ago, I had a lot of interest in knowing all of its deceit and whitewashed history. I studied it all for many years because I felt like I needed a justification for leaving it.
However, more recently, I've decided that all of that doesn't matter to me anymore. The deceit and corruption is endless. There's always more, and every faithful Mormon has an excuse for it. For me, the biggest inexcusable problem with the church is that it requires its members to always put the organization before people. Tithing is to be paid, before families are provided for, callings and temple work are to be completed before time is spent with spouses and children, temples are built before money is donated to help people, and on and on. The LDS church can't be a good organization because of its insatiable greed for money and time, no good can make up for that.
It's made very clear that there is no place for them there, although, today the leaders make that clear in very muffled tones disguised as tepid acceptance at arm's length. We love you--wink wink, fingers crossed behind back.
What most young gay kids do is keep it to themselves and "turn it off like a light switch". Bury their feelings and hope if they are good enough, if they serve a faithful mission, that God will make them straight. Thank goodness that didn't happen.
I have mixed feelings about kids coming out so young now. Takes courage and good for them and then, on the other hand, "Holy Crap! You have no idea what you are in for. You sure you are ready?"
I preferred the outright clear-cut hate from Oaks and his ilk to the nebulous signals sent to the kids nowadays. At least you knew exactly where you stood. As one who would never stand outside with my nose pressed to the window SWK helped me get the hell out of Dodge.
The Mormon G.A.s have been forced into a position they revile--the infamous Fence Sitters. They aren't even sure what to do in today's world anymore.
> I have mixed feelings about kids coming out so > young now. Takes courage and good for them and > then, on the other hand, "Holy Crap! You have no > idea what you are in for. You sure you are > ready?"
I must say, D&D, that at least in the more liberal parts of the United States--which is coincidentally where the rebellion of the frogs, unicorns, and bobble-head costumes threatens the existence of the United States this very day--"coming out" is a different experience than it was a few decades ago.
In such parts of the country, kids in high school and college care very little about others' gender identities. As middle-school and high-school jocks, nerds, and gay people swarmed, and swarm, through our home we see an acceptance of "different" people all the time. Mormon communities are more recalcitrant, but I have seen two very active families recently follow their children "out" of the church. No drama, no fights: just a loyalty to family that would have been unimaginable in Mormondom quite recently.
We all know that there are places that remain dangerous for the "not us" crowd, but that realization shouldn't cloud our recognition that much of North America has grown a lot more tolerant.