If I was faced with a Bishop, Home Teacher, Family Member etc in a discussion about the Church what would be the top 3 items that you would use to win the debate?

Only 3 allowed!

End of polygamy just in time to get statehood recognized. End of African Americans being banned from holding the priesthood. Change in the temple ceremony to get rid of some of the more creepy elements.

If this is the one true church, why all the recent changes?

3) Fact: the mormon church is either 100% true or it is 100% false. Either God & Jebus showed themselves to JS in the grove as it has been told to us or they didn’t. None of us were there to witness the act, so the only thing we have to go on is JS testimony. We have to decide if JS was the type of person to tell a lie or not. Was he the type to lie, fib, fabricate? Yes. He lied about being a polyg, so we know that he was capable of lying. So we can’t go on the First Vision story.

2) God doesn’t change – he is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, but his most holy, most sacred rites are subject to change. Given the “fact” that one day to God is 1000 years to us, this means that God is psychotic trying to decide what is and what isn’t important to our salvation. When you look at what God has changed it makes God look like Tom Arnold on mescaline.

1) Book of Abraham. Total fraud. Total proven fraud – even Hugh Nibley had to acknowledge that it isn’t the BoA. This wouldn't be a big deal except for the fact that mormons get an awful lot of their doctrine from this book. Without the doctrine of becoming gods themselves there is little special about mormonism.

1. Mormonism is based on a larger fraud: Divinity of Jesus, Christianity and the Bible.
2. BoM (Anachronisms, DNA, etc)
3. Book of Abraham (Book of Breathings/Book of the Dead/Egyptology)

I must agree with Heber C's choices, however, I would arrange them differently.

1. BoM (Anachronisms, DNA, etc)
2. Book of Abraham (Book of Breathings/Book of the Dead/Egyptology)
3. Mormonism is based on a larger fraud: Divinity of Jesus, Christianity and the Bible.

Having said that, I also must agree with Stray Mutt who argues that you cannot really convince a TBM of the error of his ways. Cognitive dissonance in the TBM's mind will override any logic or reasonable argument in spite of whatever evidence you might muster. Read Mutt's remarks.

The absurdity of it all is proof enough to me.

#1- they lie and are deceptive. Don't think a real God would need that.

#2- The cult like behavior.

#3- JS boinking all the hotties.

No lamanites.

Joseph Smith lied about....well, pretty much everything.

The whole plan of salvation depends on Satan tempting us. All Satan has to do is nothing and the whole thing falls apart.

False Scriptures/Revelations:
Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon, JST, D&C (especially later inconsistent entries) Book of Commandments vs D&C.

False Teachings:
Blood Atonement, Blacks in the Pre-Existence, Polygamy, Plurality of Gods, Celestial Marriage, Adam-God, God as a perfected Man.

False Statements regarding the above.

1. Joseph Smith's Life incompatible w/Joseph Smith as a Holy Prophet of God
2. Plural Marriage
3. Intolerance of Blacks and Gays, Tolerance of Pedophiles.
4. Tithing
5. Corporation of the LDS Church

The original apostles in the first century lived simply, and 11 of those first 12 died violently from the hands of persecutors.

Compare the original apostles to the posh life lived by today's 'apostles'.

.................................

Joseph Smith's great catalog of false prophecies. The standard for a prophet has to be accuracy.

.................................

Great amounts of changes in the BOM and D & C from the originals until now. The stone in the hat would not give Joseph a new sentence until Oliver wrote it down perfectly. So it was allegedly perfect right off Oliver's pen. It should not have been changed 3913 times, not including spelling & punctuation.

If it was something like that, it is enough proof for me. If you really were a profit, would you dare make gawd mad with that statement?

either the First Vision account is true and is the greatest event in the history of the world or we are all engaged in a great fraud so I'd take him at his word. After all, he's their leader - they should listen to him. Therefore, my three are:

Why does the 1832 version of the First Vision written in Joseph Smith's own handwriting contradict the official church version? Joseph said originally that he went to the grove at age 17 to know if God existed because of questions from reading the bible and saw Jesus. Not quite what we hear today, is it?

If it was the most important event in history, why didn't anyone in the church know about it in the 1820s? Why no diary accounts, news stories, anti-Mormon attacks commented upon...nothing? Even Lucy Mack Smith didn't mention it in her book.

If he actually saw God and Jesus, why did his story about the event keep changing? Why couldn't he remember the details accurately - wasn't it important to him? For example, if he saw God in a body, why does the original 1835 Doctrine and Covenants teach that he was a personage of spirit?

Here's a link if you want to know more:

http://www.i4m.com/think/lists/mormon_questions.htm

Only one is necessary:

There is no evidence of it's being truthful.

NOTHING will convince people who aren't ready to accept at least the possibility something might not be right with the church.

So I think the best you can do is say, "I just don't believe it."

When they try to offer reasons why you should, reply, "I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that."

The First Vision? "I don't believe that."

The 3 and 8 Witnesses? "I don't believe that."

And so on. After all, what actual proof do they have? Mormonism is the one making the claims, so it's the one that needs to back it up. Stories aren't proof. Feelings aren't proof. People in other religions have stories and feelings and books and all that stuff too. So what?

When they offer their testimonies, reply, "I'm sorry, but your belief doesn't make me believe."

For me the most obvious were:

1. Book of Abraham - Obvious fraud

2. Changes from the Book of Commandments to D&C - Based on the BOC alone there was no Melchizedek and Aaronic priesthoods when they formed the church in 1830, that guts everything Moronism stands for today. Why would God change holy text? Why would he do that?

3. Book of Mormon - Anachronisms, Bible translation errors copied into text, contradicts almost everything we know about ancient America, no Lamanites, etc.

If you just pull back and look at it objectively you wonder how you ever fell for any of it.

1) Changing scripture. One of the reasons why John Whitmer left was because they changed scripture - like adding the Priesthood, or the First Vision, or just D&C in general. According to scripture, blacks should still not have the Priesthood.

2) Tons of people tell how Joseph Smith was a fraud in other areas of his life. He lied about polygamy. He lied about the bank - it failed, he didn't have legal authority to establish a bank, many claimed that he never had the money in the bank that he claimed. The Greek Psalter, Kinderhook plates, and Book of Abraham show that he didn't have any ability to translate.

3) The Book of Mormon. The writing is terrible. Chiasmus is found in natural talking. Nephi prophesied of Christ's coming exactly, yet no one else knew when it was. The lands can't be found, other than matching Joseph Smith's time. Blatant errors had to be changed, like Benjamin still being alive 30 years after he died. Lack of women, especially women prophets.


..
That's how I argue. I bait someone with a broad category so they'll ask more. But, instead of trying to prove something wrong to them, two important questions are, "What would convince you it was wrong?" and "If it wasn't true, would you really want to know?"

1) Circular logic of families are forever. How can every family be together forever, yet become gods of their own worlds.

2) LDS theology completely contradicts the bible (and even the BOM itself). Which is true, the prophets, the BOM, or the Bible. They can't all be true.

3) How can the gospel be "good news" when it is a huge list of rules and regulations? Isn't that bad news? Pry the family member/bishop to explain the gospel to you, make them repeat it several times. Then read to them 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Then read to them Galatians 1:8.

1. JS's character, with BY's a close second

2. The BoM's lack of historicity

3. The current leaders financial cover up and real estate activity

Or is it just the history, the doctrine and the leaders?

Take any old doctrine and ask the obvious question. If a sound and reasonable answer is not immediately forthcoming, you win!

For example:

Q: "God made humans imperfect then punishes them for being imperfect. Why would god do that?"

A: (???)

Scoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooore!

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2010 01:34PM by Timothy.

burn her for just being a Jack Russell?

We can be more understanding than gawd who created us the way we are?

Never in a million years!

The world's most perfect dog, in my mind!

Timothy

In the First Century, the collections of scattered communities of believers looked nothing at all like any church we know of today.

The temple rituals of Jesus' time consisted of animal sacrifices and nothing remotely resembling masonic elements were in existence.

When Jesus was crucified, all who died before him were saved.
When the church was formed under Joseph Smith, all who died prior to that were also saved in the CK. Therefore, the need for Baptism for the Dead is unneccesary for anyone who died before 1830. As a central tenet of Mormonism, it is unnessecary and negates the Atonement.

Any teaching that negates the Atonement is a false church.

"When Jesus was crucified, all who died before him were saved."

Is this something you believe or...? I'm confused. I thought that Christians believed only those who were in Abraham's bosom were saved after Christ's atonement.

My #1 will probably always be God was once a man (not). Past prophets have also stated that God had to learn to become a God just like we are doing. This means that God had a God over him that he had to obey and repent to. Now we have more than one God in the picture. Whether you believe in the Bible or not (Mormons do, so the logic works) reading Isaiah 43 shoots down this logic very clearly when God/Jesus states that no God was formed before him and neither shall there be any formed after him. And if Mormons think that this wasn't translated correctly, teach them about the Dead Sea Scrolls and how it nearly if not perfectly matches our current translations of Isaiah. If they try to say the Great and Abominable Church corrupted it, show them on a timeline that the Dead Sea Scrolls predate the establishment of Catholicism.

3) City Creek Mall / The Osmonds...it's a toss-up!

2) BYU Football...can anyone say "Losers"???

1) Roadshows we're eliminated proving that there is NO god!

Or so it seems to me...

P.S. ATTN: Admin...Can this thread be archived on the main board so I don't have to print it all out for my TBM family? Thanks for your consideration!

and if god was once a man, he can't be alpha omega

I told people my temple name, in fact I told many non-mormons the details of all the temple ordinances ...... still, my guts are intact and my throat unslashed.

So, the Pay Lay Ale oath taking is really cartoon - and the LDS temple is looney toon.

I am the most absolute evidence that the BofM is false. I am a white anglo-saxon male. I have done some bad things in my life, and my skin is STILL white!

Three words:
1. KINDERHOOK
2. DNA
3. Polygamy

a quick question: i am not as learned as most on here are, when js had a revelation about the bom copyright being sold in canada and it did NOT come true, did he not state to the 2 people he sent "some revelations are from god, some are from man and some are from the devil" did js say these words ? if he did, wouldn't this statement condem mormonism on the basis that any and all "revelations" have a suspect source. would this logic [i know oxymoron ] work on tbm's or missionaries ? or would they reply js never said that ?

Yep, you are bang on - Joe said it

In order of importance, but reverse chronological order:

1)I was already out when Southerton published his work, but it buried any lingering doubts I had. When the church altered JS's intro to the BofM in response, that was their admission that they knew it was a fraud in my eyes.

2) I actually left because I realized that they were full of shit when it came to gay issues. Their descriptions of gays and prescriptions for change defied every experience I had with other gay individuals. I realized that if they knew so little about something so fundamental to my life, I couldn't rely on them to guide me.

3) My doubts really began on my mission, which I saw how corporate Mormonism is. I felt like I worked for LDS, Inc. as a sales rep. It felt nothing like how I envisioned working for Jesus would be. The LDS Church is completely upside down in how the True Church of Christ would really be run, unless you believe in Supply-side Jesus.

1- Joseph Smith's prophecies failed therfore he is not a prophet.

2- A true prophet would not teach or lead his/her people in a way that would contradict what God has already taught, even if this prophet could perform a miracle.

3- The feelings in your heart are more deceptive than any downright dirty deceptive person you can think of. You cannot trust your feelings to determine truth.