So let me give this a try without using the hot button word "breeder" and without being a smart ass in general.

It is alarming to see how many people here would chose differently vis a vis having children, if they could do it all over again. All of the posters were adults when they made these decisions. None claimed to be mentally ill at the time. It seems to me that perhaps society needs to have a say in who gets to bring children into the world since it is the society as a whole who suffers when unwanted children are brought into this world, and not just the brainwashed and/or selfish and/or naive people who make the babies in the first place.

Fire at will.

While to some degree I agree with you, who gets to make the decision on who passes their genes? Sounds like an Aldous Huxley novel. Do only the Alphas and the Betas get to have the children while the Gammas are simply the caretakers?

Idealistically, I think people should be required to take parenting classes and be licensed before having children, but who gets to decide what is taught? I've been told I would be a terrible mother because I wouldn't propogate the foolish idea of Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. I don't believe in lying to children. I personally think it's stupid to feed your kids Happy Meals and Ding Dongs every meal, so does that mean the poeple who do that shouldn't be parents?

demonstrating that the prospective parent(s) have the finances or financial potential to feed, clothe, shelter and educate their children.

Wow...I've been running errands and it looks like I missed a bunch of stuff happening.

In that context, without all the inflammatory stuff, sonoma, I agree.

Personally, I believe that the best way for society to have that say is for sex ed to consistently be taught in schools (the horrible, mentioning GLTB and handing out condoms sort), and for abortion to be easily obtainable in addition to the adoption option. The European nations that have followed that model have fewer problems with irresponsible parents, and have a lower abortion per capita rate then we do.

Education all the way. My life would be much simpler if I hadn't had children when I did, and while I can't force my kids to avoid my mistakes, I can make sure that they have a good grasp on how their bodies work, aren't shamed into thinking a personal hormonal release (as someone on here put it once) is a sin, and have lots of other goals beyond getting married and having babies.

ETA: Realized I'm rambling...essentially I believe that as long as the proper tools and education are there, very few women will choose a life in which they are trading a chance at education or basic necessities for children. You don't need to have some sort of board that picks and chooses...women will take care of it individually themselves.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/02/2011 03:41PM by vasalissasdoll.

It would be one thing if the OP had said, "I am going to give my children away" or I'm going to neglect my children or abuse my children. Kind of like people who get a dog and then decide, "Oops too much work."

She didn't say she was going to stop raising her children.

How can ANYONE really know what it entails to have children until they have them. I loved children up until I had my own. That is a whole different ballgame. I babysat endlessly. My little brother and sister consider me their "second mom" because I had a disabled younger brother who took our parents' time and so I took care of the younger 2. I still do--after my parents' deaths.

I had twins first. Nobody told me "Hey, you'l have twins first." THEN after I had children at age 28, all my mormon friends said, "We didn't tell you the truth about having kids because we wanted you to be as miserable as we were." Luckily, I never had anymore.

I love my kids--but THIS IS THE HARDEST JOB I HAVE EVER DONE. You think you are done at age 18--HA HA HA HA HA HA HA. My job as a mother has been much more stressful emotionally since they graduated high school--and I thought raising them as a single mother from age 10 on was tough.

I believed in mormonism. I believed the leaders. So did my mom. She had 6. They told us "if you lose yourself, you find yourselves." My mom spent the rest of her life (with 2 disabled children--one at age 42 from a stroke)--wondering why she wasn't happy after she had done everything they told her would make her happy.

We aren't the ones who abandon our children. At least the OP is willing to ADMIT that she is unhppy being a SAHM. My boss is not a SAHM and her husband stays home (and he has a master's degree). He has been a SAHD for 20 years now. You think mormons don't give him hell?

By the way, my gay husband did breed and then he took off and left me to raise the kids he boohooed about having before I married him--which is one of the reasons I married him. Now he cries because he left and missed out on 10 years of their lives.

Breeders, my ass.

+1

>
> I believed in mormonism. I believed the leaders.
> So did my mom. She had 6. They told us "if you
> lose yourself, you find yourselves." My mom spent
> the rest of her life (with 2 disabled
> children--one at age 42 from a stroke)--wondering
> why she wasn't happy after she had done everything
> they told her would make her happy.
>

LIARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I lost myself. I gave myself over completely to my children (and husband actually) and guess what?! I WAS LOST!

I only starting finding myself again when I started to allow myself some time to focus on things that interested me.


In essence, they want women to keep their minds empty of anything outside of church and family. Keeping popping out future tithe payers. Breed dammit! Breed!

I think Cakey's post is also a very brave step in solving the problem. Not only in Mormonland, but in general, people don't talk about the regret they have for having children. They feel guilty, like it means they don't love their children. Therefore, most parents put out a happy image that having kids is always wonderful, and people who are considering children don't realize what a negative impact it is having on their lives.

A lot of sociological research is showing that having children does not make people as happy and fulfilled as has always been assumed. People being honest about how children affect their lives is an important contribution to the social dialogue and will help potential parents make a more informed decision. People don't need to be regulated, they need to be informed.

I think you're making two points here...

First you seem to be criticizing the "adults" which "None claimed to be mentally ill at the time" for having more children while members of the "church" than they would have now if they would if they could do thinks over. I don't know that I agree with this criticism. The pressure to have children in the church once you are married is tremendous, in some cases unbearably so to the point that even if a mother has had multiple miscarriages and it is dangerous to continue, they will try again and again and feel guilty for not being "worth" enough to bring a baby to term.

How many people here would have gone on a mission, gotten married so young, or lived the restricted life that the church put on them if they could do things over. People did things in the church that they never would have done otherwise. To criticize those choices is an exercise in futility and the opposite of what this board is setup to try and help people recover from.

On your other point, which I read to mean, "should just anyone be allowed to have children", that's far more difficult. It has overtones of eugenics and "big brother" policies. While it's a great idea to have classes or licensing for parenting... Who would control it? The government? Don't make me laugh, the same government that is doing such a great job with all it's other policies and programs? Have a council or some other group? Nope, that wouldn't work either because they become corrupt too easily. Any choice would have problems with elitism, prejudices and other control issues.

Since I have left the church, I've become a firm believer in evolution. I think it applies here. In this case I see the church as a mutation, that worked for a small group of people, but it seems to be breeding out. By most objective accounts membership in the church is shrinking. Yes the church will change and will stick around, but in the terms of evolution, it will probably only be a blip on the radar.

If you start trying to control who propagates their genes you change how evolution works. You may not like who's gene's get propagated to the next generation, but I assure you there are people who equally don't like the idea of your genes (or your friend's and family's genes) getting to the next generation either.

As they said in Jurassic Park "Nature will find a way" anyway. I say let it.

Agreed

you stated...
"If you start trying to control who propagates their genes you change how evolution works. You may not like who's gene's get propagated to the next generation, but I assure you there are people who equally don't like the idea of your genes (or your friend's and family's genes) getting to the next generation either."

not true, you CAN"T change how Evolution "works". It still operates the way it has for a couple billion years.

Yes you can influence whose genes enter the "pool", but that could be said of Birth Control AND Abortion. Wanna get rid of those also?

You can laugh at the government as a regulator all you want. I happen to have witness in my lifetime the improvements in the environment resulting from government regulation. Also, China will no longer be the most populous nation soon, because they attempted to regulate birth rates. The NEW Most Overpopulated nation will be India, who did not.

And BTW, my gene's are staying put. So EVERYBODY should be happy.

because if I remember correctly, you somehow referenced your sexual orientation in making your comments. As much progress and inroad that has been made in the gay and lesbian community in this country, you should take the higher road in your walk and talk about social matters. Set the example so you represent your community with class and dignity. You come across like a classless intolerant jerk. The people you were addressing, including myself, were caught up in a cult. We'd all do things differently if given a 2nd go around. I'm glad your parents didn't believe in abortion. You come on this RFM board to take pot shots at people? What gives?

I'm a man who happens to be gay, not the Official Ambassador from . What next? I should be a credit to my race... er... sexual identity? My comments have been expunged from the record. What is left is an apology to Cakey, and an honest question to a REAL problem. I happen to believe that people who regret having children are not going to be excellent parents. If you don't like it, read a different post.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/02/2011 04:13PM by Susan I/S.

everyone last one must be an ambassador. Son, it's time to grow up.

They wanted more children, but thought that they couldn't have them. I was a happy surprise, and I never had reason to doubt that.

The very FIRST step is for everyone to be honest about what it's like to have kids. Little girls should not be raised thinking that the perfect job for them is to grow up and get married and have babies. I raised both my kids to believe in themselves, that they could do whatever they wanted to. And I empowered my daughter: I told her over and over that she did not need a MAN to validate her existence.

(info: I'm nevermo, married to a nevermo, so I didn't have the built in prejudice to deal with fortunately)

I also taught both children that babies are HARD WORK. It's not like I sat them down and gave them all this data in a quasi classroom setting. I just made sure my opinion got mentioned, and they could know of choices in their lives. But I did say that babies are hard work, and having them is a big responsibility. And mommies and daddies don't always love their babies automatically. I told them that I had moments when I questioned having children. (especially when they were teens...) And I told them about infants getting up a million times a night, while reminding my daughter that she didn't sleep at all the first year of her life. I said that mommies get up when the babies cry, and then mommies sit on the edge of the bed and cry harder than the babies.

REALITY. Birds don't sing, angels don't play harps when you have a new baby. You are sleep deprived, you don't understand WHY the kid won't stop crying, and you wonder when you're gonna wake up from this too-realistic nightmare.


~VOW

Please watch the words you use.

And VOW - AMEN TO THAT about teaching kids about what a baby is really like. It is not some cute little thing they can dress up and play with. There is no OFF button! And they leak! Most of the time all over you just as you are trying to get out of the house :P

Susan, you're killing me here! Really, F**istan? It's one of my best lines!! Any help with an equally witty replacement? How 'bout Saudi Gayrabia?

Tell me, sonoma, would you find government regulation so agreeable if, instead of curtailing birth, people were forced to breed by government mandate?

Opposite sides of the same coin. We are not talking about regulation business, money markets and the environment. We are talking about trying to regulate very private, personal decisions.

China's population control is now being seen as the boondoggle it was. Because of the relative value of males over females, female infanticide rose. Now there is also a huge, unnatural discrepancy between the ratio of males to females.

What do you suppose is going to happen when several million young males have no opportunity to find a partner?

Nothing good, I assure you.

Not by everyone.

"What do you suppose is going to happen when several million young males have no opportunity to find a partner?"

give them my number...

I seriously can't stop laughing :). My family is looking at me like I'm an idiot...

In Brazil, women of ALL classes have access to FREE health care including Birth Control and Family Planning. Their birth rates have stabilized in just 2 generations, and are on par with those of Western Europe.

Come on ladies, are you gonna let the gay man be the first to point out that EDUCATION and FREE HEALTH CARE are consistently the most effective way to population stabilization, and well as a HOST of other benefits to society?

I mentioned that! Post #4.

I even agreed with you...a little credit... /friendly grumble

Haha!

That was clever... :). Hehehe



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/02/2011 05:02PM by Lost Mystic.

There is a cultural aspect to this situation. Male children are expected to take care of the parents for life. The female child is to marry and leave her parents for her "new family" with her husband.

Chinese parents in a one child per family sitch'....they have no one to support them as they age. This may have changed. The last time I saw my friend was mid 90's. She and her American husband married in the USA, brought her parents to live with them, opted to forgo children and support her parents.

The dynamic of women as caregivers for parents in the USA, much more likely than the son's, but some male children are the primary caregiver to their parents. Kind of like...whoever will and can, and wants to take on the caregiver role. If my info from my friend is not correct in 2011, please feel free to correct me.

I am glad I had my 5 kids and I don't like government medaling in my affairs at every turn. Why do people want constant restrictions in their lives. Didn't you have enough rule following to make you sick already?