Elder Faust spoke to us at a mission-wide conference. I was so excited to be in a meeting with an apostle. Well, to my chagrin, he chewed us out!!!! And what amazed me most was the question that set him off....

He opened it up to questions, and one Elder asked Faust how he had gotten his testimony of Jesus. An innocent enough question I thought. Elder Faust replied, and this is a direct quote, I will never forget it...

"That is a very personal question." He made it clear that the question was inappropriate, even telling us to "grow up." can you believe that? He told us to grow up because a missionary asked him about his testimony of Jesus!

This man was a supposed Apostle, a Special Witness. But his witness was off limits to us, and we were wrong to ask him about it.

Easy one. He doesn't have a testimony of Jesus....he is interested in JS, Temple rituals and money....that's all.

"Easy one. He doesn't have a testimony of Jesus..".
Would you have a testimony of a fantasy vision called Jesus?
At least Joseph lived and established this church.

Elder Bednar visited our stake and I can honestly say that he triggered my current descent into Apostasy. I'm surprised the members didn't kiss his damn ring.

What's your story?

It was a few months ago (here in Alabama -- for you Southern Lurkers who need to come out of the closet) ... I was already questioning and so I approached the stake meeting with a critical mind. A lot of little things did not seem right. Here they are in no particular order:

-- Standing up for the Apostle: I've done that before, but I just didn't get it this time. A little too Catholic for me.

-- His constant harping about how Christian Anti-mormons keep on using the same, old attacks against us Mormons. All my info in the past year had come from active Mormons and FAIR (with the exception of John Larsen and Mormon Expression)

-- His hinting that we were the only true christians because we have been endowed in the temple... and his asking us not to share that with our christian brothers and sisters.

-- His preaching that our stake president was like a prophet to our stake. Knowing what I know about Mountain Meadows, I can't accept the word of my stake president as the literal word of God. He's one of these guys who thinks we need to wear white shirts to church.

-- His pushing for tithing.

-- His constant "are you ready brothers and sisters?" just before he would share some great revelation, that really wasn't a great revelation. Mostly talking about how we don't believe in Free agency, but in moral agency. It just felt manipulative like we were supposed to hang on his every word.

-- His statement, "that was then, this is now" when refering to how we should listen to living prophets and not dead prophets or old doctrine.

-- His hint that we had "expended our moral agency" when we went to the temple and his subtle hint that we don't want to break our covenants ... "just look at the scriptures to see what happens to those who break their covenants". I saw this statment as a threat.

Anyway, I was not filled with the spirit. I saw past the smokescreen and was shocked that most people did not. It was like I was in a huge brainwashing meeting.

I went home and finally finished Mormon Enigma in a couple of days. It was "down hill" from there.

OK you Alabama and Tennessee doubting Mormons who are lurking. Come out come out wherever you are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Anyway, I was not filled with the spirit. I saw past the smokescreen and was shocked that most people did not. It was like I was in a huge brainwashing meeting."

Exactly!

While I was TBM and in non-Questioning mode, I wouldn't, couldn't, put my finger on why it was some stake meetings or conferences with mostly 70's and other self-styled Important Mormon Prick left me wondering what the hell just happened in there? I attended, expecting to be amazed. I was not uplifted, I felt downtrodden, depressed, heavy-hearted not knowing at the time that I had been quietly led to a prison of the mind.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2010 12:20AM by charles, buddhist punk.

That's how I felt after going to the temple the first time! There is such a huge build-up, and everybody tells you such fabulous things. You expect such an incredible spiritual rush. . .But instead, you feel off-balance, maybe a little queasy, wondering what the heck just happened to you?

On the bus trip back home (it was a long way to the temple, in those days) there was an ongoing testimony session, with people sobbing out how wonderful, how marvelous, blah, blah, blah. I couldn't chime in a single syllable. I just felt stunned and wanted to get home. Of course, I was sure that there was something wrong with ME, or I wouldn't be feeling that way.

Hey Major B. - you called me out. I've been lurking here for about 2 years, and I reckon it's a good time to jump in.

My parents are in a stake that was invited to a conference with Bednar, and they seemed pretty excited about attending. Since I never heard more about it, I assumed it had not yet happened.

Are you in northern Alabama?

Hi Seymour -- that's right! Northern Alabama. You can guess the stake since there's only one up here. I take it you don't currently attend?

You should print off my post and ask your parents what they thought. It would be interesting to hear their perspective, if they're TBM. I'm not too proud to admit that I may be off base (although the assumption would be that I'm full of pride which has led to me being offended, of course). Please post their feedback.

Haha, yeah, I know which stake then. Grew up there.

Currently I attend, but I'm in that other great southern state you mentioned.

I will ask the old folks about the conference when I get a chance.

Good to see another good ol' boy round these parts!

Knowing my personality, I just don't back down when someone tries to publicly berate me when I didn't do anything wrong. I probably would have followed the question by asking if he even had a testimony of Jesus, and told him the question is a perfectly appropriate one seeing as he leads us to believe he's a direct conduit to the Lard and we're supposed to believe all his actions are directed by Gawd himself.

I would have done this as a TBM. :P Explains why all my mormon peers hated me so much.

During my years working for the CES I had opportunities to speak with about six different apostles. Each time I took the opportunity to ask heart felt questions that were in no way aimed at trying to humiliate or trap the G.A.s. Yet, each one was obviously uncomfortable with my question and gave short, akward answers or no answer at all. One just jabbered a lot of jibberish. Coming from a non-member family, my questions were mainly aimed at how I could bring my family into Mormonism. I was always depressed at how little they seemed to care and how very little insight they seemed to have into the conversion process.

With regard to Dave Bednar, who I know the best, he seems to generate either hero worship or disgust. For me, his public display of tremendous ego and self-righteous demeanor are very off putting. Yet I've heard from his close friends, which I am not, he is a very nice guy. Maybe he lets his guard down when he is among the safety of insiders.

Faust was probably reacting to the "Special Witness Syndrom". Many members have taken that wording to mean that every apostle gets to actually SEE Christ and become a "special" eye witness.

The HQ word came out that there was one question that was NOT to be asked: "Have you seen Christ?"

Faust may have taken offense thinking that the question was something along the line of "how he had gotten his testimony of Jesus, that is: had he actually seen Christ, or was it just a testimony-type feeling that he got?"

Defense attorney: "What do you base your testimony on?"

Special witness: "Mind your own damn business! Oh, and GROW UP!"

For me it was Elder Holland. Our mish pres gave us all a tape to view from E. Holland to our mission, so I was excited to be hearing something from an apostle directed to me on my mission! He didn't waste any time berating us for not working hard enough, not having the spirit enough, and not converting enough people! The kicker came when he told us we were evil if we didn't "lock our hearts" to love on our mission. WHAT???!! I'm not supposed to feel love on my mission? It was particularly disturbing for me, as I'd just recently met my future wife, and here he was telling me that I was pure evil for allowing myself to feel any love. I kept the blinders on my eyes up until a few weeks ago (12 years-ish), but even as a staunch TBM I knew something was wrong. I just thought that "something" was me...

No one can claim a testimony of the tooth fairy, either.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2010 01:21AM by Apatheist.

This behaviour seems all too common in the church. While attending a mission-wide conference many years ago, we had a visit from a member of the Seventy, Elder Kikuchi. We were told not to bring our cameras and recorders because of the "special" significance of what was to be taught. All of us were expecting inspiring and uplifting words from a chosen servant of the Lord.

Thinking back, I was really looking forward to the meeting because the "work" was not going so well and many of us felt some need for reassurance that our efforts and attempts to teach the gospel was not in vain.

Little did we know, but we got ripped! He called out zone leaders and asked them to stand and give an accounting of their stewardship. Some buckled to the scrutiny, while a few of them expressed their disagreement with Elder Kikuchi outright (which I inwardly applauded).

I couldn't believe it! Here we are...full time missionaries volunteering in a country where hardly NO ONE wants to hear about the LDS church and we get ripped for our lack of "obedience and hard work". It was so disenchanting and eye opening.

We all left that meeting disgusted. I'll never forget it.

It was never about missionary work. It was about being isolated and pounded into spiritual submission. Disgusting...

The Apostle and all his 12 merry men DO NOT HAVE A TESTIMONY !!!
At some point in their stewardship each must have privately asked for a vision or confirmation of the gospel by the visitation or at least a voice from heaven.

They all got none - neither vision nor a voice from heaven.

In fact their bosoms didnt burn except when the old farts
ate too fast and got heartburn.

So far has any apostle bear a solemn testimony that they heard a voice and saw a visin before?

The mormon movement has failed because there is no vision since Joseph Smith concocted those delusionary visions.

öops, lst line should read "The prophet and his .....

Elder Loren Dunn came out to speak to the mission, and the most influential of those guys decided to give Dunn a mission-wide middle finger. Before Dunn's talk, a couple of elders went around collecting all the missionaries' car keys. During the talk, one of them walked out in the parking lot, locked all of the mission cars and set off all their panic alarms. Even in the chapel, the noise of 30-40 panic alarms going off in the parking lot basically drowned Dunn out. He was furious. Our mission president was running around, trying to open all the cars and shut them off. No one would help him.

rip the silver & gold fillings out of your teeth and donate them to him for the building up of the greater glory of the Kingdom?

We had some 70's come to Germany basically to shred us to pieces too. Holland had recently been giving his "Europe is still ripe call down angels to help you teach" talks, but he didn't know what the fuck he was talking about.

So the 70's felt it was their job to remind us 19-21 year old volunteers that Holland wasn't wrong, we were just spiritual douches.

I was disgusted too. I could understand the Mission President reminding people about obeying the rules, and "catching fire," and blah blah blah.

But these assholes who didn't know anything about the area or the people came in to chew us out who were supposed to be "spiritual giants."

I know now that the church is just a corp., but even so, I've never had that kind of thing in any corporate job I'd have. Most business managers know about a thing called morale.

...I remember Wirthless coming once. He said that the reason our baptisms had plummetted at the change of the MP, was because our "obediance to the mission rules "plummetted...there is a direct correlation between obediance and drawing upon the powers of heaven." We all felt so guilty, and we tried to work harder. It hard for 19 year old guys to petal a religion that is based on a magic rock in a hat, golden plates, death oaths in the international house of handshakes, polygamy, etc.

It really does make me wonder at what point will these guys figure out that it's NOT the missionaries, it's the product.

Maybe soon? Maybe never? If all you do is promote ass kissing lackeys, well....

The reason GAs don't like the question is because they never had a visit from Christ.

If they are true believers, this lack of a witness would be a continual sore spot. Hence the rage when asked about it.

In our mission (Mexico-Veracruz) it was Angel Abrea. He came and spoke to every zone in the mission. Without fail, the first part of his talk was to rip us all a new one and tell us how terrible we were. In some cases, he singled individual elders out for various (supposed) failings.

During our meeting, an elder and his companion arrived late. It turns out, they had left in plenty of time to make it there, but the bus broke down. They were left waiting two hours until a new bus arrived to take them. Even given that, they were only about 10-15 minutes late. That's how early they had tried to arrive. Anyway, our MP was talking when these two elders walked in. Abrea stood up and interrupted the MP and began interrogating the missionaries who were late. The gringo companion didn't speak Spanish very well and kept trying to explain how they were stuck in the middle of nowhere for two hours. Abrea just shredded them. It got so bad that the mission president intervened and said, "Elder Abrea! These are good missionaries!" Abrea just glared and him and said, "I'm sure they are president. I want them to be better missionaries!"

He finally allowed the MP to finish talking. Then Abrea spoke and gave a talk, but no one remembered anything about it. Only that he made us all feel like dirt beforehand.

I always admired my MP for standing up to him though,

WOW. i can never get over how different these GAs are in real life from their conference selves...

Husband was in the London Mission when they got a visit from Jeffrey Holland. Husband was a relatively new convert who had sacrificed a lot (way too much) to go on a mission. Also it was really exciting for those of us in the 'mission field' to meet an actual apostle.

To my husbands shock and disappointment Holland screamed and frothed at the mouth as he tore into those poor young guys, telling them they weren't obedient enough yadda yadda yadda.This was one of your actual, real apostles who'd seen christ etc etc and he was acting like an abusive a$$hole. The cog diss was extreme.

General conference and other church meetings were such a snooze fest.

The prophet was the prophet, but he was also some old dude that lived in SLC.

...and not berating them in ANY manner.

Just where do these arrogant asses get off doing this to VOLUNTEERS???

In the real outside world these pseudo-leaders would have been chewed up and spit out years ago.

As a Mission Office Elder I had the worthless opportunity to have a PPI (one-on-one) interview with 2 GA's that were Regional Rep's to our Mission.

Both of them could not answer a couple of direct doctrinal questions for me and BOTH of them bald-faced-lied directly to my face.

That amongst others was another reason for the collapse of my testimony of Moronism while on my waning months of my Mission.

I learned first-hand that these condescending pri*ks have no more of a direct pipe-line to heaven than my Labrador Retriever.

That goes for every one of them up and down the LDS Inc Moron hierarchical food chain.

How they continue to get away with this BS in this day and age when good and decent people are tired of being ripped-off is still so way beyond me.

Or so it seems to me...

what doctrinal questions did you ask them and what were their answers? thanks.

We had an idiot visit from SLC who told a Stake Conference priesthood session that if the Mormon Church was not true, then God could not exist.

Even though I was a TBM, I found his arrogance sickening.

That's completely rediculous! The best thing any member of any church can do is share their story of faith. That's what its all about! That's how you lift other people's spirits.

That man's a moron.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2010 06:35PM by melissa3839.