Quite frankly Rebecca, you wouldn't know truth if it hit you in the head. You didn't come here for truth, you only came here to fight. Argue all you want, you know I'm right. You only want what makes you happy. Which in this case, is inciti...ng an argument so that you can "prove" you're right. You have no proof of any of what you write. I could just as easily go around and start saying stuff about you or your family that isn't true and claim that I know it is. I appreciate the apology for the obnoxious trolls that were in here, but I don't appreciate how you come in here and try to force your opinion on people.

The one who doesn't appreciate someone calling for moderation is you, Rebecca. You come in here, throw "facts" that you have no proof of, then prove left and right that you really don't know anything of this Church's history. Perhaps I should do just as you are and start claiming all this garbage about you. But, being the way you are, you'll just tell me "Go ahead, I don't care." when in fact you will and you'll be bothered by it. You have a horrible double standard. You don't like it when people say things that they have no proof of about you, but you feel it's perfectly ok to do that about others. If you really don't care and feel you won't find truth here, then why are you still here? Because again, you don't want truth, you just want to fight. Your responses attempt to show that you're calm, when in fact, you're getting ticked off and excited because we respond to your inane and unintellectual attempts at arguing. If you think that we aren't telling the truth, then leave. But you won't, because all you want is to fight. Note how I've reiterated that over and over again. Every single post of yours was a way to start or continue a fight.

Even if Joseph Smith lied, even if this church is false, at least we were raised and taught to have the decency to let people believe as they will. You have no compassion, you have no heart, you are far from American. You've shown this through all of your posts. Believe me when I say that I don't judge people until I've dealt with them for a while, and I've come to my conclusion about you. You perfectly described what I called you on before. You think that acting "civil" in your name calling and insulting makes you any better than the trolls that throw slanderous names? No, it makes you just as bad, if not worse, because you try to hide it amongst complex words.

If you want someone to point out untruths, look at your scientists. They've got so many BS theories and stuff that you fall right into. Let's take, for example, eggs. From the beginning of time, no matter how you look at it, evolution or creation by God, eggs have been eaten whole. Whether raw, or cooked, the ENTIRE egg was eaten. Then one day, a group of your beloved scientists, who are the ones who try and control people, which you are one of them, goes and says that eggs are unhealthy for you and you believe them. Then one day they say that eggs are suddenly good for you again. Then they tell you that egg whites are healthier for you, when they contain a small fraction of what the yolk does. If you don't believe the scientists on that, then kudos to you, not a lot of people know the truth about whole eggs being healthier. Then they tell you that alcohol is bad for you, then they turn around and say that a glass of red wine a day is good for you. If anything, you're the one who's brainwashed. You'll believe anything that these "geniuses" tell you. You have no right to sit there and tell someone they're wrong when you have no actual proof. You can sit there and argue that we have no proof either, but even if we didn't, you have no right to sit there and act like you are the authority on whether or not God exists. If people want to believe, let them believe, if they don't then let them not. It's their choice. That's the reason America is the way it is. So that people could live believing as they will WITHOUT repercussions either from the country or from the people within.

You want to know the reason why things seemed to go bad once Joseph showed up in town? Because he was being hunted. And those hunting him knew that where he went, there would be Mormons that they could kill. Shall I compare it to what you're doing? You know where Mormons will gather, you go there, and you provoke them to anger. Are you going to say that you didn't? Then good lie to yourself. Good lie to us, because we can all see, including you, that you're lying. You're doing the exact thing you claim Joseph did.

Fact is, you are no better than the trolls you spoke out against. Fact is, you are unhappy. Fact is, you hate people who aren't you. Fact is, you don't want to be punished for things you do. Fact is, you're totally intolerant of what other's believe. I can do the same thing you're doing by claiming that what you say are "facts." You don't know them any more than what I say about you. But, from what you have posted on this page, you have turned speculation about you into fact. Not fact from someone who already hates this church, but fact from a true source. In this case, you've given me facts about yourself which you may very well deny, or attempt to deny.

You claim that you didn't demand respect. You may not have said it in so many words, but you did in FACT demand respect. You expect us to respect what you THINK about our Church and its history, and yet you refuse to show respect. You contradicted your own statement. You say it's earned, and yet you do nothing to earn it. You demanded and expected it. Even without saying it, it was implied. You'll more than likely deny this. Go ahead, keep lying to yourself. Whatever makes you feel better, as you told Mark. Now, let me quote a line from a movie for you that you just might know. You want the truth? "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!" (- Jack Nicholson; "A Few Good Men") That's true about you. You can't handle the truth. Because that would make you wrong about things and that's just something you can't stand. And this is... well, according to how you put things, FACT about you. You haven't even denied some of the things that I've posted. Which, quite frankly my dear, is now fact.

So again, argue all you want, you've truly lost this battle, and you're just making yourself look worse instead of just shutting up and saving face. You've already proven how intolerant you are, how unAmerican you are, and just how plain rude you are. I can pretty much guarantee that you're going to respond to this and prove, once again, that I'm right about you. If you want to prove me wrong, then don't come back. Unlike the page, and stay off of any and all religious pages. Because you intentionally go to them in order to fight and try and force what you think onto them. This wasn't an attempt to find truth, this was just a way to fuel a fight to make yourself happy. The moment you answer back or even post again on this page, you will have truth. You will have proof. You will have proven that I am right. UNLESS, you are actually coming to learn about what it is we believe. Or UNLESS you are apologizing for doing what you have. BUT, apologizing because you "were trying to show us the truth" is merely another attempt at continuing your fight. But, with what you have shown here, you've proven to me and given me truth, that you don't care about anyone or anything but yourself. You don't want to know what different churches believe. You don't want people to believe what they desire. You don't want them to believe something that makes them happy and helps them live good decent lives. You want them to think that they can do what they want and not suffer any repercussions for it.

Rebecca Loos ‎"You claim that you didn't demand respect. You may not have said it in so many words, but you did in FACT demand respect. You expect us to respect what you THINK about our Church and its history, and yet you refuse to show respect."

I do?

"Y...ou can't handle the truth. Because that would make you wrong about things and that's just something you can't stand. And this is... well, according to how you put things, FACT about you. You haven't even denied some of the things that I've posted. Which, quite frankly my dear, is now fact."

If you say so...

"Because you intentionally go to them in order to fight and try and force what you think onto them."

I wasn't aware that it is possible to "force" someone to think the way you think they should. Is this a concept the Mormon Church teaches? Sounds like brainwashing to me.

"This wasn't an attempt to find truth, this was just a way to fuel a fight to make yourself happy. The moment you answer back or even post again on this page, you will have truth. You will have proof. You will have proven that I am right."

And you say I have an obsession with being right?

"You don't want to know what different churches believe. You don't want people to believe what they desire. You don't want them to believe something that makes them happy and helps them live good decent lives. You want them to think that they can do what they want and not suffer any repercussions for it."

Is that so?

"Perhaps I should do just as you are and start claiming all this garbage about you."

Isn't that what you've been doing already?

"But, being the way you are, you'll just tell me "Go ahead, I don't care." when in fact you will and you'll be bothered by it."

Wow, you are absolutely AWESOME at telling people what they think and feel. Either you're psychic or you're deluded. I'll let you decide which it is.

"Every single post of yours was a way to start or continue a fight."

You know, mature people can actually disagree without fighting. It is only the childish and insecure who see a "fight" behind every disagreement.

"You have no compassion, you have no heart, you are far from American."

According to my birth certificate, I'm an American. I wonder what authority you have to say I'm not. Oh well, I'm SURE you know more than I do about me.

"You think that acting "civil" in your name calling and insulting makes you any better than the trolls that throw slanderous names? No, it makes you just as bad, if not worse, because you try to hide it amongst complex words."

So, it's wrong to use politeness and civility when disagreeing? I should just call names like the trolls -- and you.

"If you want someone to point out untruths, look at your scientists."

MY scientists? Wow, I didn't know I had my own scientists. And they're "untrue"? Is your electricity untrue? The glasses you wear? How about the car you drive. Yep, can't trust those "scientists" can you?

"They've got so many BS theories and stuff that you fall right into."

Snicker -- you believe that Joseph Smith found the amazing, disappearing Gold Plates and you imagine I fall into "BS theories". I guess you looked in that mirror and didn't like what you saw.

"You have no right to sit there and tell someone they're wrong when you have no actual proof."

You mean like you've sat here and told me what I think, feel and believe -- with what proof was that?

"You can sit there and argue that we have no proof either, but even if we didn't, you have no right to sit there and act like you are the authority on whether or not God exists."

I actually DON'T act like I'm an authority on whether or not God exists. I know that no God has proven itself to me -- and that's as far as my knowledge goes.

"If people want to believe, let them believe, if they don't then let them not. It's their choice."

Why yes, it is. Good thing I can't stop anyone from believing anything they choose to, isn't it?

"That's the reason America is the way it is. So that people could live believing as they will WITHOUT repercussions either from the country or from the people within."

You have a very warped view of America.

"You want to know the reason why things seemed to go bad once Joseph showed up in town? Because he was being hunted. And those hunting him knew that where he went, there would be Mormons that they could kill."

Wow, melodramatic AND hyperbole all in one fell swoop. Excellent histrionics. I give it a 6 1/2.

"Shall I compare it to what you're doing? You know where Mormons will gather, you go there, and you provoke them to anger. Are you going to say that you didn't? Then good lie to yourself. Good lie to us, because we can all see, including you, that you're lying. You're doing the exact thing you claim Joseph did."

If you say so. Yawn.

"Fact is, you are no better than the trolls you spoke out against. Fact is, you are unhappy. Fact is, you hate people who aren't you. Fact is, you don't want to be punished for things you do. Fact is, you're totally intolerant of what other's believe. I can do the same thing you're doing by claiming that what you say are "facts."

Wow, that's a lot of "facts". By the way, what things do a do that I need to be "punished" for? I'm very curious about that.

"You claim that you didn't demand respect. You may not have said it in so many words, but you did in FACT demand respect. You expect us to respect what you THINK about our Church and its history, and yet you refuse to show respect. You contradicted your own statement."

Wow -- this is just insane. I can't even refute it because it's just crazy talk. According to you, no matter what I actually say -- I'm saying something else.

"You can't handle the truth. Because that would make you wrong about things and that's just something you can't stand. And this is... well, according to how you put things, FACT about you. You haven't even denied some of the things that I've posted. Which, quite frankly my dear, is now fact."

Actually, you're partially correct. I DO like to be right. I hate it when I'm wrong. Hasn't stopped me from being wrong, or admitting that fact, on many occasions. There you go -- one "fact" you actually got partially right.

"I can pretty much guarantee that you're going to respond to this and prove, once again, that I'm right about you."

Hey that's TWO "facts" you got right. You're on a roll. Of course it's a lovely double bind you tried to create there. "If you respond; I'm right about you. If you leave; I win by default." How about this? You can call yourself the "winner" in this "battle" if you want to. I actually don't care.

"Or UNLESS you are apologizing for doing what you have. BUT, apologizing because you "were trying to show us the truth" is merely another attempt at continuing your fight."

Actually, I don't apologize unless I've actually done something wrong. When I let my temper get the better of me and respond in anger -- I apologize -- it's the right thing to do. But to apologize for disagreeing with you? No - I actually believe I have a First Amendment AMERICAN right to disagree with you. (Unless, of course, a page administrator asks me to leave.)
"So again, argue all you want, you've truly lost this battle, and you're just making yourself look worse instead of just shutting up and saving face."

And since I'm so worried about how I "look" to people like you -- and demanding that respect even though I haven't -- I should really shut up now and "save face". Oh wait, but I don't have any "face" in this matter to "save".

"You've already proven how intolerant you are, how unAmerican you are, and just how plain rude you are."

I love the unAmerican attacks. Good thing people like you don't get to determine citizenship.

but I actually got bored somewhere in the middle. Sounds like you did too. Was this Facebook or a discussion forum somewhere? U don't need to answer if it's a matter of discretion.

I think it's called the Joseph Smith fanpage.

Yeah, it was kind of boring, but I'm a bit obsessive so I just had to respond to it.

AH yes, the emotional, "Fact is...", you're not a real American argument never gets old. *sarcasm*

some of them were even true. But unAmerican? What a laugh! I absolutely LOVE the argument that America is all about allowing people to be in any religion without any negative comments.

That sounds just like the argument I had with a TBM very recently. The same condescending, sometimes insulting tone.

Back a few years when the Main Street Plaza fight was going on, Mormons were making the argument--while the ACLU was insisting that First Amendment rights that accompanied the "right-of-way" could not be infringed--that they "never" tried to "Protest at the Vatican."

You could also remind the poster of that attitude and its similarity to the statement "Even if Joseph Smith lied, even if this church is false, at least we were raised and taught to have the decency to let people believe as they will."

Here's a quick one-liner response to that one: "I'll believe that balderdash when the church ceases its missionary work. Or are you trying to tell me missionaries don't have a role in changing what people believe?"

Okay, on with the story: A certain very articulate poster who still visits here occasionally served a mission in Rome... And he pointed out that missionaries did indeed target Catholics at the Vatican, handing them brochures, etc. and trying to engage them in dialogue...

He even published a letter in the Salt Lake Tribune to that effect...

I know because I lost a bet on a cab ride on that one (he's still got it coming, BTW, and knows I'm an honorable man on that matter).

More crapola . . .

>You want to know the reason why things seemed to go bad once Joseph showed up in town? Because he was being hunted. And those hunting him knew that where he went, there would be Mormons that they could kill.

Remind him that Mormon Historian Richard Bushman--on the PBS Show "The Mormons"--noted that Joseph and Sidney had to leave town when they split from Kirtland. And that it wasn't "anti's" that were after them; it was their fellow Saints.

You could ask him if he'd read John D. Lee's "Confessions" detailing how JS ordered Mormons in Missouri to steal from the Gentiles (Other works have confirmed this information, including the testimony of Sampson Avard)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampson_Avard

(Ignore that little "mormonite" claim that JS encouraged the Saints to be lawful; that's pure doublespeak since JS invented the "Law of Consecration")

>After the Mormons were expelled from the Missouri and Joseph Smith was arrested, Avard was the chief witness against Smith, testifying that Smith was the mastermind behind the Danites. Smith denounced the group as "frauds and secret abominations" and excommunicated Avard in March 1839. Avard never attempted to return to the Latter Day Saints.[6] By 1850 he was practicing medicine in Edwardsville, Illinois, where he died in 1869.

You might ask him why only Mormons were singled out repeatedly for persecution in a country based on religious freedom...

And you might tell him God sure does love "anti-Mormon liars" because he sure creates a lot of them...

BTW, yes, this is pretty much SOP with Mormon "debaters." Lots of strawman stuff, lots of insults, lots of "boundary violations" (via assumptions they know what's happening with you), and lots of personal attacks.

Reason they hate me is I used to break drunks and adolescent drug addicts for a living, and after fifty years of listening to their nonsense, I know just where to aim.

If you want to be really nasty, you could tell him he's proof God wasn't inspired when he taught JS about garmies because you can tell from how pissed he is that you nailed him right in the 'nads. I mean a wise, loving, and all-knowing God would've suggested some sort of protective cup be added to their design...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2010 08:25PM by SL Cabbie.