Answers please with Harvard Referencing...

I've got an opinion. In the first place, during Jesus' lifetime he was not known as "Christ". That came long after his death. Second and to your point, he did not have a church. That, too, came long after his death. He was a Jew who taught Judaism (as it was understood in his day) and he stressed a life of strict righteousness. Most everything else we read about Jesus is the stuff of myth and legend.

I can second Nebularry's post. The "Church" was a Pauline construct that came much later, after the death of Jesus. Christianity first existed as a jewish sect. A good read on this subject is Bart Ehrman's Jesus:Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millenium. In it, he paints a very plausible picture of who Jesus may have been. In Ehrman's opinion, he was just another doomsday prophet who was trying to reform Judaism.

I think the first problem is thinking in terms of "the church" as an institution. I believe references to "Christ's church" refer to the body of believers or "called out ones". It is the collective term for christian believers who are found within institutional christian churches. Believers are members of "his body", the church, first and foremost rather than members of, say, The Methodist Church or the Baptist Church.

kentish is right about that. It is not a church as we know it today....it is a body of believers. And yes, Christ talked about the way people should live and serve.

I agree that Jesus was a Jew and was not trying to set up a new religion. What he referenced as the church, if those were even his words and not added later, probably me meant his followers and those who believed

That, in my opinion, is one the BIG boo-boos of the LDS church: Jesus was a rabbi who was considered a radical. But in the 19th century most people would be shocked to consider that he was even jewish, and Joseph Smith made the 19th century mistake of assuming he started the "Christian Church", so JS was restoring...what...??

The Gospels were written at least 30 to 40 years after the crucifixion. Paul's Gospel was firmly entrenched in the Diaspora and the Jewish following of Jesus under his brother James was gone or would soon be gone with the destruction of Jerusalem. The survivors were probably the Ebionites who denounced Paul. What is written in the Gospels is what is attributed to Jesus. However, except for the Q portions, the rest is a fabrication. Paul's followers needed a foundation for their Church and so they made it in the creation of the Gospels.

You mean there really wasn't a Bethlehem 2nd ward of the Jerusalem East Stake?

I'm so disillusioned.....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2010 09:51AM by kookoo4kokaubeam.

You will not find in the Primitive church as laid down by the apostles and early bishops the positions of stake president, high councilmen, or a presiding bishopric. You will also not find the apostles leading the primitive church as a united body with a prophet and two counselors at the head.

It is my belief that Joseph Smith modeled his church loosely after some titles taken from the New Testament but certainly gave them his own flair and did not use the organization that was laid out by the early church leaders. Also, we have only the teachings of Paul, who was not one of Jesus’ original followers while he lived, that delineates some of the “offices” in the church.

So, where did Smith obtain the ideas for at least some of the church positions?

First we must look to Ephesians 4:11 in the New Testament: And he gave some apostles and some prophets and some evangelists and some pastors and some teachers. Here Paul is indicating some of the workers in the church that were appointed. Unfortunately he does not list each one's duty. This is from the King James version of the Bible. I believe that Smith was a student of the Bible. Perhaps even a serious student. These positions were given for the work of the ministry. That is the spreading of the Word. The word apostle comes from the Greek word apostolous (apostolous), meaning a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders. As far as I can tell it does not intone the meaning of someone in charge. With the apostles we have evangelists (euaggelistas in Greek “euaggelistas”). The Greek word signifies a biblical and ecclesiastical worker, a bringer of good tidings, an evangelist. This name is given to those heralds of salvation through Christ who are not apostles. Along with these two we have prophets, shepherds and teachers. However, it appears that these ministers of Christ's word were not in charge of the church. The Didache (a first century Christian treatise) states that apostles and prophets should stay only a short while in any area. If they stay longer they are false teachers . So, if a ministry is necessary (which it may still be) there will be these traveling teachers as noted in Ephesians but they do not run the church.

In The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, author D. Michael Quinn on page 126 discusses Brigham Young, the Quorum of the Twelve and the succession after the death of Joseph Smith. Previous to Smith’s death, the Twelve’s role had been that of a traveling “high council”. This council had jurisdiction over areas where stakes were formed. This is more in line with the duties of the original apostles as recounted in the New Testament and early Christian writings. It was after the death of Smith and the wresting of power by Brigham Young that the Twelve took complete authority at this crucial junction in Mormon history.

But what of established home-churches/congregations or the early church itself?

The Bishop and the Deacon.

The two primary offices noted in the New Testament and other early Christian writings are those of the bishop and the deacon. First Timothy chapter 3 is quite explicit on some of the qualifications for a bishop and deacon. First and foremost the bishop must be the husband of one wife. In chapter 3 verse 1 it also states that people should aspire to the office of a bishop. My feeling is that it is not just being called to the position but working towards the position. Clement Chapter XLII discusses the order of the ministers in the church and covers the offices of bishop and deacon. Clement was a first century Christian writer.

“The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done so] from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and establish in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops
and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture in a certain place, "I will appoint their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith."”

Deacons are workers in the church. The word deacon comes from the Greek diakonias (diakonias) which means service, ministering, especially those who execute the commands of others. In first Timothy 3:12 it states that deacons should be the husbands of one wife. If Joseph Smith knew the New Testament inside and out he would not have missed this. In the Mormon Church young men at 12 years old are ordained as deacons. Polycarp in his epistle to Philipi lays out the duties of deacons, youths and virgins. He treated them separately and at least as to deacons and youth we can say that they were not the same. It is also a possibility that there were
45
female deacons .

We also know that the church had elders (presbyters). Polycarp outlines their duties in his epistle to Philipi in chapter VI.
“Knowing, then, that "God is not mocked," we ought to walk worthy of His commandment and glory. In like manner should the deacons be blameless before the face of His righteousness, as being the servants of God and Christ, and not of men. They must not be slanderers, double-tongued, or lovers of money, but temperate in all things, compassionate, industrious, walking according to the truth of the Lord, who was the servant of all. If we please Him in this present world, we shall receive also the future world, according as He has promised to us that He will raise us again from the dead, and that if we live worthily of Him, "we shall also reign together with Him," provided only we believe. In like manner, let the young men also be blameless in all things, being especially careful to preserve purity, and keeping themselves in, as with a bridle, from every kind of evil. For it is well that they should be cut off from the lusts that are in the world, since "every lust warreth against the spirit; " and "neither fornicators, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, shall inherit the kingdom of God," nor those who do things inconsistent and unbecoming. Wherefore, it is needful to abstain from all these things, being subject to the presbyters [elders] and deacons, as unto God and Christ. The virgins also must walk in a blameless and pure conscience.”
In the centuries following the death of Jesus, some Christians had difficulties with the rise of the new Christian priesthood and the ecclesiastical leaders and the rules laid down by them. In the Nag Hammadi texts, one of the books, called Testimony of Truth, discusses this. Elaine Pagels in her book The Origin of Satan touches upon this subject: “But the author of the Testimony, reflecting on his own alienation from the majority of “worldly” Christians, suddenly believes he understands Jesus’ warning to his disciples to “beware of the leaven of the scribes and pharisees” (Mark 8:15). Jesus’ words are not to be taken literally, as if they referred only to Jewish teachers; instead, taken symbolically, they warn against Christian teachers like the author of Barnabas or the Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, who invoke the Scriptures to sanction ordinary life. According to the Testimony, the “scribes and Pharisees” and the “blind guides” against whom Jesus warns (Matt. 23) are none other than the majority of Christians – Christians who have been tricked into worshiping not God but supernatural “rulers” who are less than divine.”46
1 Corinthians 12:4 states “There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit; and different
47
kinds of ministries and the same Lord” . I interpret this scripture to mean that as there are many different types of spiritual gifts, there are also many different types of ministries. That there is not just one type of ministry as in a one-size-fits-all type of mentality.

It is my contention that the Mormon Church, although it has some positions that are based off of New Testament examples, is not completely patterned after the primitive Christian Church.

Also, if we look at just Jesus' ministry and take into account that he was a Jewish Rabbi, then the primitive church should be like a Jewish synagogue. The Mormon sacrament meeting is more of a business meeting than a worship service and does not pattern the Jewish of early Christian synagogue or Christian Liturgy.

What Jesus was most likely talking about was that the kingdom of heaven lies within us. That we have the power to make the planet heavenly, by being loving. (Love thy neighbor as thy self or the Golden rule expoused by ALL religions). Or "Be excellent to each other".