I love my wife dearly, however she grew up in the LDS church and is devoted to it. How do I tell her that I no longer want to assoicate with the church that is such a part of her own identity?



My story:

I'm a convert and have been struggling with my faith for many years now. Doing my best to follow my priesthood leaders and still finding myself to be unhappy. For a long time I felt like I was unhappy because of some short comings of my own, that if I could become more spiritual then I would be happy again.

One day while pondering my situation I began to focus on the phrase "By thier fruits ye shall know them" and I began to earnestly exam my 10+ years in the church and ask the questions "What has this church ever done for me?" and "What has my membership in this church done for me?"

I know what it cost me... good friends, closeness to my family, 'donations' that were coerced from me by well meaning Bishops... In fact the only good thing that my membership in this church has resulted in is meeting my wife.

I have never truely fit in at church, my views, values, personality and even sense of humor have always been slightly "out of phase" with the rest of the members in the wards I've attended. In fact the only time I felt like I belonged in a ward was when I was in college and attending a student ward. All my friends from that time in my life have since left the church (which should tell me something), and I desire to join them in the freedom on non-membership, however I am so afraid of lossing my wife that I find myself going through the motions of full membership like a mindless drone.

I tried to share some of my concerns about the church with her once (about a year ago) and the conversation ended with her threatening to divorce me if I ever left the church... since declaring in no uncertain terms that her love for me was conditional I have been too scared to even approach the topic. I love her and would do anything for her, but I feel like I'm living a double life... taking the sacrement each Sunday while daydreaming the rest of the 3 hours about how great it would be to be free...

I know that the answer should be simple, but I hope some of you may understand my pain and conflict and may have some words of kindness and advice for me.

You will find lots of good advice here...from me, you have my sympathy!

No, no children.

She sounds quite immature. If you are lucky enough not to have children with this woman you have other alturnatives. I'm sure there are others who want to blame your wife, but I have to ask you: Why would you want to be married to a woman who has choosen the church over you?

(Note: this is all my own interpretation and may or may not be based in the reality of the situation)

I may be over simplifying, but the reason I stay with her is because I love and respect her. The reason I still go to church is because I know it makes her happy and I want her to be happy.

At the same time, I believe that she loves me and wants me to be happy too.

I believe the conflict comes from how she draws a sense of identity from the LDS church and desires to live up to the expectations placed on her by both church and family. By leaving the church I would be preventing her from meeting some of those expectations and would be forcing her to reevaluate more than just her commitment to me.

While trying to sacrifice to make your wife happy is commendable, at some point, there needs to be a point of balance. You are living your life for her needs and desires. That's not good. You have needs and desires, too - and they need to be respected. There needs to be both of you living your lives *with* each other.

Have the discussion again. Be clear you are not expecting her to leave the church in any way, but that the 11th article of faith needs to apply here. If she makes the threat of divorce again, ask her why she would throw away a husband who loves her over a difference of faith (because that's what that is) simply because he's being honest. A marriage cannot survive if one member is unwilling to find a compromise or middle ground.

You might try building a real-life non-Mormon support system. Such a support system might consist of pursuing some personal interests that involve you with other people and friendships. At the same time take small steps away from the church at a pace that won't set off alarm bells for your wife, if that is possible.

Ultimatums are a low blow and I state I don't accept them, although I am willing to work out reasonable compromises. One approach you might take with the ultimatums come from marriage researcher John Gottman, who writes about working with "gridlock"--essentially intractable issues.

Irony of ironies, a BYU website describes the process pretty well. Perhaps you could share it with your wife:

http://realfamiliesrealanswers.org/?page_id=54

You can read more fully about the process in Gottman's Ten Lessons to Transform Your Marriage. You can get it in paper or electronically at Barnes & Noble or Amazon.

I also recently posted a paper on exmormon/mormon marriage that might be helpful. Here's the link:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,34491,34795#msg-34795

I was given the ultimatum you received myself. My compromise was to tell my wife I would give the church another year, but if I felt the same after that time, I would be leaving. The year passed and I left and then she did. We divorced 5 years later, in part because the church was the glue that held us together, but for other important reasons as well. We had four children and I raised them. It was painful and difficult but worked out better for me because being a Mormon was not good for me. Like you I was convert and I didn't fit. I outgrew it and staying made me terribly depressed. Leaving didn't resolve all my problems by any means, but I didn't have that false life to try to live.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2010 10:27PM by robertb.

...I was all about my own feelings. Whom do I love? Because I guess I felt that I had enough love to carry both my partner and myself. Looking back, I think that particular way of looking a love and relationships came from a very deep-seated, and unmet need. A hole within me, if you will.

Nowadays I think I'd give at least equal (or even slightly more) weight to who loves me. Who is the partner who is caring, concerned, loving, supportive, generous of spirit, etc.? -- because I've come to feel that I deserve that. And that particular way of looking at love comes from a place of wholeness inside of me that has been long sought and hard-won.

My personal opinion is that a discussion about religion in a particular family has to be more thoughtful and complex than merely, "My way or the highway." Because to me that sort of knee-jerk response does not come from a loving place. If it were me, I'd push to have that discussion. Even if you (let's say for the sake of argument) decided to keep going to church, at least you will have discussed it as a couple, carefully and lovingly considered other possible solutions, and come to a joint decision about it -- as opposed to one person simply imposing her point of view unilaterally, as if she were squashing a disagreeable bug.

You say you love her deeply.... does she love you deeply. It appears not. She is in love with her church and all her importance there. YOU have no kids. If you are unhappy do not waste another month in this situation. She is not respecting you since you tried to talk to her and she made it sound like the discussion was closed to anything YOU had to say about the church. I feel for ya, but you do have a life to live and she is not allowing it to go forward. This would be easy for me. You would miss things about her, but the same kind of woman without the dictatorial attitude is out there looking for someone like you.....many of them.

I think you said you are a convert. If you are and your family has been disappointed in your choice to be Mormon at least let them know what is going on in your head. I sure wish I could hear this from my convert daughter soon. In my case I would hope she and hubby would both get out. You don't seem to have that hope.

When a person first hears that their spouse is no longer a believer, it is a terrible shock. There is anger because the marriage may, to some degree, be based on the joint lifestyle of Mormonism. This is similar to secular marriages which are mainly a social exchange (I bring this to the table, you bring that...we shake hands).

Her reaction is one of fear of loss. Her dreams for you as a couple are inseparable from the Mormon life and the Plan of Salvation. You might say even her threat to divorce you is not
"personal" in that she is expressing (in her mind) righteous indignation that you are changing- you are welshing on the deal.

If you really love her, the only chance you have is to BE PATIENT and take things slowly. You don't have to leave the church to reclaim you heart, mind and soul. The moment the delusion/illusion dissolved, you became a free man inside. You can never undo that enlightenment.

Many woman believe that the church keeps their husbands good by interviewing them, spying on them, threatening them and guilting them. They do not feel (subconsciously of course) that they are able to keep a man happy, or that they deserve the complete love of a husband "once he gets to know me." The church will make their husband stay. This is something that you have the power to deprogram out of her. This is a gift you can give her, if you love her that much and are willing to bide your time. You could be the one to set her free.

You can start by telling your wife you no longer believe the church is true, but that your love for God and her remain anchors for your life (if that's true). Tell her you are committed to being 100% honest with her and being 100% authentic in your new life of integrity. Tell her you are willing to accompany her to church and any other activity she wants to attend as her husband, because you love her and want to continue to share what's important to her.

Meanwhile, you can vent feelings here on the forum, and develop some of your own interests. You can show her that book robertb recommends, "The Third Marriage" and tell her that you are finding yourself and this developmental model can help you both weather the changes ahead. And that you think your love is worth it. (if that's true)

As you proceed to demonstrate your acceptance of her as a person, lover, wife, regardless of her beliefs in the afterlife, and she sees that you are still you, she will relax. Of course you will not be bearing your testimony, taking any callings, or phonying it up. If she objects, remind her that you are redefining yourself in terms of integrity and you have your values to maintain--being authentic, for example, and honest. If the bishop calls you in, tell him the truth, you don't believe. Ironically, if you keep paying and don't lead others astray, they really don't give a sh*t what you believe. I often thought I would answer the question, "How do you feel about Jesus?" by saying he would make a good paperweight and they would just go on to the next question....(but that's just me)

OK, my friend, if you have demonstrated tolerance and love and the type of loyalty and devotion the above requires, and she still prefers a big cold institution over the love of a good man, then you have done what you can, have a cold one, and start a new life with someone who loves you more than anyone or anything. You deserve that.

Best of luck

Anagrammy

It allows the wife some security while at the same time allowing the OP to be honest and truthful with himself and others.

LonelyHusband, maybe you could just go for SM. Cutting back on the three-hour block might give you some immediate relief.

in such a limbo for a long time or take a stand?
I am not advocating u to divorce or anything. But value of a Life well lived is not about to please others & sacrifice yourself.
Take your chances. Now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2010 08:03AM by quinlansolo.

My in-laws had a close loving marriage where they did not share the Mormon religion. She was active LDS and regularly attended the LDS ward where they lived in southeast Idaho. He never went to church. They both drank coffee every morning with breakfast. He liked to have a whiskey on the rocks after work and a beer with dinner.

On a typical Sunday morning in the summer she would attend LDS church services. He would go out fly-fishing in streams/rivers fairly close to their home. I think it did them both good to have some time away from each other. Marriage doesn't mean the couple has to be joined at the hip.

They owned a travel trailer and went out camping in the mountains on many summer-autumn weekends. They really enjoyed those weekends together. On a camping weekend she did not bother with church. The camping and her husband were her priority.

That marriage lasted for about 55 years, until she passed away. They were as close and as loving a couple as I have known. Even though they didn't share the Mormon Church, that was no obstacle to their marriage.

Their example has always made me wonder why some devoted Mormons, like OP's wife, seem to think that a happy marriage is not possible unless both people are heavy-duty Mormons. It does not have to be like that. The way to have a happy successful marriage is for both partners to make the marriage the most important thing in their lives. Any church or religion should be a distant second.

You need to realize that even if you go slow it may go fine at first but might not last long term so you have some hard questions to ask yourself. Do you slowly work this to preserve your integrity, or do you play in the delusion so you don’t even chance any risk of losing the love of your life?

You are going to want to determine if you are primary in her life or if the church is. But this questioning cannot come as an ultimatum.

I would have loved to finish this life with the wife. I had not educated myself on the problems with hitting the spouse with too much info (sometimes emotionally charged) and a couple other church and family related things doomed any chance of continuing my marriage.

It all boils down to letting her know that she is the most important thing in your life.

I think that if you wrote down all your fears of losing her with the problems of you personally reconciling the serious problems of church history and demand for obedience that would help a lot. Then leave this letter laying around for her to read.

Let her know that your chose “her” not the church. Due to the teaching inside the church about “apostates” and their direct involvement with “satan” she will equate the two and will feel you are going to leave her for the “dark” side.

You need to help her see that you can separate her from the church and love her for her and not because of her participation at church.

If you want to keep her take baby steps but don’t give up your personal integrity along the way.

Good luck my friend.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2010 04:18PM by AmIDarkNow?.

You're fortunate not to have children to drag into this limbo.

Leading a double life doesn't fulfill a person-you need friends from outside the Church that you can talk to about your real feelings.

Try easing out of the Church little by little. Try telling your wife that you would prefer putting your part of the tithe money into something different.

You know, you were a complete person before you met her, and you're still a complete person. If she can't respect you for who you really are, it really begs the question about what you're defending so fiercely.

I think you already answered your own question, original poster. You value your marriage more than you do escaping the church. This may change at some point, but for now it seems that your marriage takes precedence.

I'm hoping it works out for you.

I am in a very similar position.

I don't think I can convince my wife of anything that maybe contrary to her belief in the Church. We have a temple marriage for eternity and that is that. Any discussion, however gentle turns into an attack on her faith.

However...

I have purchased a copy of Grant Palmers book "an insiders view on Mormon origins". Grant is a long term member of the Church in good standing who is extremely qualified and researched on Church History. His book just acknowledges, factually, the elephants in the Corner of the Mormon room.

It's on my nightstand, and my wife has seen it but not asked anything about it. At some point she probably will and I will let her read it.

That's it. That's my plan.

Oh, We did have a discussion about the Celestial Kingdom and where we were likely to end up. She said the CK. I asked, what if our children aren't there (our children are from separate marriages and mine and one of hers aren't members)? That threw her a little bit and asked what I meant. I said that I wasn't going to be in a place where our children weren't. I think that got her pondering a little that this great vision of the CK ain't all that great if your family isn't there.

Yes but what about if he does want children....should he give in to the church and drag kids into this cult? Boy he needs to think of all the issues and not just his love for his spouse.I would think he would feel as much love for kids too. So then what?

You sound young. I apologize for sounding condescending, but I married young (at 21) and you and your wife both remind me of how I thought at that age. Ten years, four kids and a lot of marital ups and downs later (we're very happy these days) I can tell you that if there's one thing that true love/a solid marriage have to stand on, it's honesty and respect. If you are unable to be honest with her, and she is unable to respect your faith journey, it's not the magical earth-shattering love of your life that you think it is.

Remember that as you go forward. No honesty, respect, integrity = no authentic happiness in the long run.

(And don't forget to laugh, always.)

That's my Random Internet Person two cents. And as for practical solutions to your situation, Anagrammy's advice struck me as extremely sensible and compassionate.

Good luck and stay true to yourself, while allowing her to stay true to yourself, even if that means you can't work out a way to live together.