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Posted by: eddie ( )
Date: September 23, 2010 09:21PM

This sounds very much, in my opinion, like many TBMs.

Adult Children:

...guess at what normal is.

...have difficulty in following a project through from beginning to end.

...lie when it would be just as easy to tell the truth.

...judge themselves without mercy.

...have difficulty having fun.

...take themselves very seriously.

...have difficulty with intimate relationships.

...overreact to changes over which they have no control.

...constantly seek approval and affirmation.

...feel that they are different from other people.

...are either super responsible or super irresponsible.

...are extremely loyal, even in the face of evidence that loyalty is undeserved.

...tend to lock themselves into a course of action without giving serious consideration to alternative behaviors or possible consequences. This impulsivity leads to confusion, self loathing, and loss of control of their environment. As a result, they spend tremendous amounts of time cleaning up the mess.

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Posted by: nonmo ( )
Date: September 23, 2010 10:06PM

Not to argue with you about this or anybody else...I have many issues with Mormons (I live in Utah) and their warped thinking....BUT......I happen to know a TBM guy who is TBM to the core and he knows i definitely am not mormon at all....he DOES know how to have fun, enjoy a joke, even non mormon jokes and realizes, I think, that the world is bigger than him and his religion..

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2010 10:08PM by Susan I/S.

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Posted by: Topper ( )
Date: September 23, 2010 10:37PM

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: September 23, 2010 11:28PM

And honest, Eddie, this isn't a put-down but rather a thank-you for doing some of the repetitive heavy-lifting here (I think that's the second time I've said something to that effect on one of your threads). This stuff needs to be said over and over and over again...

Those around alcoholics and other dysfuctional types develop a sort of set of "mirror symptoms" that have been well-identified and described in the literature on family dysfunction (see Bradshaw, Beatty, Lerner, Kasl, Cermak, and others). The "hidden agendas" are fostered by a set of unwritten rules, "Don't talk; Don't trust; Don't Make Waves" that we experienced sorts describe under the heading "The Elephant in the Living Room."

There's a reason these elements emerge. The definition of "addiction" I like best is "a pathological relationship with a mind-altering/mood-changing experence."

Mormonism qualifies in that regard; I believe it was Melodie Beattie who said, "Addictions are things we have to lie about."

In the ten years I've been coming to RFM, I've become really well-versed in Mormon history and how bastardized the Mobots' faith-promoting version really is. And this was after coming here simply wanting to learn more about the Mountain Meadows Massacre and a few other historical events I found troubling. I actually believed Brigham Young was a great and compassionate leader when I first arrived; today I regard him as a horrible maniacal monster...

Those are the lies I've seen; I'd already debunked the BOM and church dogma in my own mind years ago... The notion that the LDS Church is a benevolent organization just does not fly in the face of rational analysis. And that doesn't mean there aren't many good, gentle, compassionate and honest Mormons around. There are...

But they remain trapped in the psychic prison this model so aptly describes...

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2010 11:33PM by SL Cabbie.

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Posted by: paintinginthwin ( )
Date: September 26, 2010 05:38AM

you think maybe some families have generational W.O.W. followers, then a generation including WOW not-followers making achain through the generations? is it possible even in old Spanish Fork Utah for instance, to have some inactive guardian or family member raising kids- can there be alcoholics in family lines in Utah? & then their kids- become parents of kids, and later they're grandparents of their kids' kids- all the while this switch "on / off" all or nothing- the whole gospel or jack mormon WOW it drinking to excess keeps flying falling down thefamily lineage- uncorrected until the final family member flails falling flying onto this Word of Wisdom/alcoholism trampoline.

So even those curently TBM might have been raised as such- in an over reaction to, Uncle so and so, (grandma's bro) or (mom's bro) etc. setting up a chain reaction of over reaction and woundedness falling through the generations- rewounding each other no doubt.

For instance, That might be part of why some taking "no loud laughter" in the temple so - literally = and others they see seem to be born laughing always giggling & so fun for everyone to be around.

Another example is, when some cling to the church to give them rules or make life make sense (which it didn't in their family of origin) and this going back to whichever adult turning TBM. What were they needing clarification on? Which difficulty or event in their life was making them need the 'go spell' to turn a new life programming on? What exactly was it they were fleeing from wanting to embrace or find a new "go spell" to Spell out a new way to live exactly? in old England was it poverty & peasantry? what exact ailment was it later that invited converted? so how many wanted freedom from some life complaint and used the go-spel to spell out a way to avoid what they had encountered?
So how many walked in wanting to avoid the consequences of "sin" ie drunken family systems that ran in their generations?

So how much of that we call being TBM is actually- incidental to being raised in generational alcoholic family trees?

& there I people who are TBM without being so stunted. I remember one of them- LOL he wanted to know why me & my fiance were so serious (I had just had my first tumor & he was speech reading, orally prfoundly deaf in his senior year in a science major- so to us, life was serious, an effort) and this tbm was all sports car giggling practical joking- I hope he is still careening in laughter & all through the years he was so entertaining.

I recall a convert I met in college, & he left on a mission & he heard my voice while I was typing on this board, tracking me down, & called my cell phone. He needed an explaination of how I got from there - to here, & hearing me say the things about my kids' health, my own, & no more bs- made sense. It frightened him & while I want(ed) validity, surely certainly not at the expense of his stability. People use the church to help life make sense, & some of us get really shook up when in too much literalism, it becomes a big cathc 22. About my college friend, I think he's TBM/ NOM combination, he was raised by alcoholic lawyers & was partying out of control as a teen- then he found the church. He NEEDED the church. He married a generational TBM- he Needed something wonderful in them- & they in him. His career, his life, his markers of social events, his contacts, all string forward from his mission. More power to him. I am glad for him that he recreated his life & found ways to be that are meaningful for him & wish him the best. I would never recreate his faith- his faith/not faith & his life anchors keep him successful & create something in life that make sense.

See some things about tscc make 'safety sense' in someone battling generational behavioral drivers- where there is something they don't want to be, or fear, having experienced the excess/ consequence in reality. its just such a catch 22, that one aspect of tscc does not justify polygamy or intrusive interviewing, or further teaching alcoholic family members they ought not, cannot have boundaries (via interviews, the submission clause in the temple, VT/HT intrusiveness, YW presidency/ RS presidency, EQ presidency meetings planning outreach discussing members- teach there are no boundaries, your opinion rights as an individual or individual preferences & desires do not matter.) So those with no boundaries or family with few boundaries in rolling generational reactions to alcoholism- re enact or recreate them being tbm.

For myself & my college friend let us find our ways. I am concerned for the children of the literal tbm reacting to over indulgances (their own or their parents) - who may be enraged living with someone who is so entrenched, they may be at risk of being oppositional rather than moderate and finding common sense. so it goes through the generations & people ulitmately do the best that they can.

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Posted by: JoD3:360 ( )
Date: September 23, 2010 11:45PM


I can identify so many of those traits in my own self. And truthfully, while they have been around for a long time, once I committed myself to TBMnity (nifty new word, no?) they rapidly became problematic.

Like after I was taught that as a morgbot I was responsible for having personal revelation, I developed a severe case self doubt- always fearful of a decision that might not be approved of by God. I would stress out over whether it was right or my own thoughts, or if it really was wrong or if I was being thwarted by satan.

I began to have terrible bouts of self loathing, and judgementalism toward any who didn't seem to be keeping the rules, whether at home at work or on the road.

And there are a couple other traits in there too, but suffice it to say, that despite having been programmed to hate myself as a child, it never fully kicked in until I was a full blown TBM and now it won't go away.

The Book of Mormon declares that 'Man is that he might have joy'. Perhaps it is a prophetic warning...

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