As a new member, some background. I am a BIC member but do not agree with almost every aspect of the "administration" of the church. I do find value in the ministering part of service and as a resident in a highly concentrated area of members, find value in the social interaction without feeling much pressure to buy in to all the 'crap' that is spewed forth as "Thou shalt do or do not".

In any event, I recently was called into a disciplinary council. I had confessed something to the Bishop and things were going pretty well in the council without me feeling less of a human being and actually feeling pretty good about not feeling overly shameful of what had happened. As some of you are aware in the CHI, it states the intent of a disciplinary council is to:
1. Save the soul of the transgressor
2. Protect the Innocent
3. Safeguard the good name of the Church

Anyway, after I was dismissed from the interview proceedings, they spent almost two hours deliberating what to do with me. My impressions during the whole meeting was only probation would be prescribed. After the two hour thumb twiddling in the church corridors, they brought me in and said they had decided on disfellowship.

I spoke with the Bishop in private afterwards and he was very candid in talking about the process. He too had felt initially that probation was going to be the option, but the more he and the others talked they moved towards disfellowship to satisfy objective number 2 and make sure my kids knew the gravity of my actions. Not a single time had any questions been raised about my kids in any conversation I had with the Bishop or the disciplinary council. I told the Bishop I was going to appeal the decision and he was supportive.

I just met with the Stake President last night to discuss my appeal. He has three options:
1. Let the Decision stand
2. Reduce the discipline
3. Ask the disciplinary council to re-hear the matter

He is contemplating what to do and is actually a good personal friend of mine. I guess this is my way of testing to see if they really want me to participate at all and seeing how much real 'ministering/forgiveness/mercy' is actually shown by church administrative officials. My personal feeling is too much is being dictated by CHI to really let people get in touch with their human emotions. Anyone gone through an appeals process and if so how did it go?

Going into any court proceeding, church, civil court, whatever, is a crap shoot. It should be avoided whenever possible, because what may seem perfectly obvious and fair to you may not seem so to those in charge.

If the Sp is a personal friend, that might help, but the tendency is to not contradict the local leadership unless there was an egregious error. In general, for the smooth functioning of the SP's life, the lay member is more expendable than the bishop.

Or, more flippantly: it's a kangaroo court. Of course there are kangaroos.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2010 11:20AM by Brother Of Jerry.

Never went through an appeals process but I found the part about your kids knowing the gravity of your actions pretty disturbing.

Why should your kids even have to know? I guess the decision becomes public whatever it is. It seems destructive to the whole family. The Church needs to rethink the whole process. Not likely.

how old are your kid's and why do they want them to know? When I married DH we were in are 40's and lived together before getting married. His BP told him he had to tell his kid's and my son it was wrong and a woman that would do that was a bad person.I told him if he said it I would be moving out and the BP heard me. family church bull s??t

They never said I had to tell my kids, just that they should know the gravity of the situation which in essence implies that. This is the problem with the whole thing, they assumed that my kids already knew or if they did not know they should know how serious it was.

By the way, my kids are young, 15, 11, and 10 and should not have to be anything other than kids right now.

You are right the kid's need to be kid's and if you and thier other parent do not want them it know make it clear to the BP the 2 of you will tell them when the time is right not the Ward. And make it very clear to him that is how you will be doing it.

If your kids were to find out what the problem was, would the fact that you'd been disfellowshipped make it harder for them to go to church? Would disfellowshipment drive a stake through their belief system?

Who would tell the kids the issue - you? your bishop? the kids' youth leaders?

If we're protecting kids, what are we protecting them from? If the punishment seems unfair or unjust to the kids, there's the chance that the harsher punishment will hurt them (not protect them) in the long run.

On the other hand, if they see a bishop extending an arm of mercy toward their parent, they might end up with more warm fuzzies about the church and their relationship to it in the future.

Not everyone makes their minds up based on fear of punishment.

Where does it authorize them to tell your kids, unless you are a predator?

Here's what it says:


"When announcing a church discipline, leaders must consider the feelings of the transgressor's innocent family members and the needs of innocent potential victims.

A decision to place a member on informal probation is not announced.

A decision to place a member on formal probation may be announced to those who need to know as determined by the presiding officer.

A decision of disfellowshipment or excom. is announced only to those who need to know. The principles and procedures in the following paragraphs govern these announcements.

No announcement is made if a decision is being appealed, unless the presiding officer of the council concludes that an announcement pending appeal is necessary to protect potential victims, to support the healing of victims (although victims' names are not announced), or to safeguard the name of the church.

The bishop announces the decisions to confidence in ward priesthood executive committee meeting to guide priesthood officers who might otherwise consider the disciplined person for service...

The bishop advices the ward relief society president in confidence when a member of the RS has been disciplined or has been a victim.

(Ho boy, note the sexism. Men know everything, women only what they need to know about other women.)

If a case concerns (1) preaching of false doctrine, (2) a transgressor whose predatory tendencies seriously threaten other persons, or (3) other flagrant transgressions (such as plural marriage, cultist teachings to attract a following, or ridicule of church leaders), then with the approval of the stake president, the bishop announces the decision in meetings of the elders quorum, high priests group, and RS in his ward. In such cases the stake president may also need to authorize a broader announcement, such as in a stake priesthood meeting or to the Melchizedek Priesthood brethern and RS sisters of other words in the stake. In some cases the presiding officer may find it beneficial to notify some or all of the victims, and when necessary, their families that the transgressor has been the subject of a disciplinary council.

So the moral of this story is don't talk to your Bishop in confidence. Because it isn't.

You might ask Simon Southerton about his... Simon is one of the gentlest men I've met--with perhaps the finest mind as well, and I've known some giants--and he has trouble not slipping into profanity when he describes the church...

And another very valued regular poster here describes how her ex, who wanted to be kicked out of the church, confessed to some past affairs...

She was hauled into a church court and asked why she wasn't sexually satisfying her husband...

Honest, I can't make this stuff up...



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2010 12:46PM by SL Cabbie.

You have some questions to ask yourself.
1. Why pray tell did you feel need to confess to the bishop that you couldn’t have done in private between you and your god?

2. Your bishop did not keep it to himself. Why? In the rest of the Christian world the buck of confession would have stopped there. (hello, red flag!) The whole issue is now written down and recorded for the current and future bishopric, stake presidency and their secretaries and lookie loo’s to peruse at their leisure. You only hope this is kept private. There are no guarantee’s of privacy now nor is your right to privacy in the church policed by anyone. Your confession is now public. Is that what you wanted? I think not.

3. They will always know your “sin” and will never forget it for the rest of their lives every time they see your face and why should they? It has been recorded! Why is that necessary or how can that possibly be justified?

4. Never ever forget number #3. “safeguard the good name of the church” , everything else be damned and that is a fact. There thousands stories of heartache, dishonesty and outright lying to protect Court of Love decisions. Search the net and prove me wrong. Personal and highly private lives are displayed in detail in front of strangers sometimes up to 15 High Priests. Explain to me why the hell that is a court of love? It is nobody’s business at all. If number #3 is a rule how can any ruling made be fair minded?

5. Your SP thinks he is helping you based on the church being the most important thing in life. Don’t count on that changing the ruling. He being a friend of yours is besides the point. Never forget rule number #3! Always remember that protecting the church is good for “you” in their eyes. And what would truly be the difference if he downgraded the ruling? Too dang many people now know your private life. To what end has this helped them or you?

6. Threatening to inform your kids. This is the biggest red flag something is really wrong. This flies in the face of free agency. Not only does it destroy yours it destroys your kids by showing them the threat that “even dad gets punished in public by the leaders so I had better do as I’m told”. Never mind the public humiliation the kids will go through let alone yourself. What would Jesus do?


EVERYTHING is wrong here from start to finish. Look closer and think harder. Stop participating with these “Great Pretenders”. Take your life back and keep it to yourself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2010 12:57PM by AmIDarkNow?.

YES!YES!YES!! Agree with everything you said. As I was reading the post I'm thinking...are you kidding me? The church really thinks it's their right to interfer in another persons personal life? Of course the answer is yes,and it really makes me sick. I can't believe these courts are still going on.

The BP kept firing off negative statements: Ex. "You don't use scriptures with the name of the church inside." This had absolutely nothing to do with the reasons for my luv court in the first place. My response was: "Yes, I use scriptures copyrighted by the LDS church."

Another of his statements: "You don't give elderly members vegetables from your garden." Whether I give or don't give vegetables to elderly ward members is immaterial. But, yes, I do and have given vegetables to elderly church members.

As you can tell from the above, the bishop was attempting to substantiate my excommunication with nonsense. All the time and effort he could have expended in a more positive manner.

Knowing that the appeal's process was going no where fast, (crap was piled to the ceiling by that point) after the initial 20 minutes, I stood up and said, "Thank you gentlemen for your time" and walked out of the proceedings. The BP stammered, looked at his notes to see if he had covered everything, which he had not, but I was out the door. I had had enough.

By way of the questions the BP posed, I knew the decision to keep me excommunicated had previous been reached.

The appeal's court was not held for any of the three reasons you stated in the OP. The reasons for my excom where not brought, as in, I did not receive a second trial based on reasons for the initial luv court being held.

As recently posted, the new SP stated that the former BP forced the issue through the disciplinary process and should not have; hence, the BP's apology for my excommunication.

Best wishes for a new trial and a better outcome!

I don't think they'll tell the kids any details. I can't imagine that. But the decision will be announced and the kids will eventually know disciplinary action was taken against a parent. That's wrong for so many reasons. What has love got to with this?

I've heard the reason that some people have to know is to save the disciplined member embarrassment and to avoid awkward situations. People need to know that you can't be asked to offer a prayer or have a calling. Understandable I suppose.

And I don't mean this cynically. The usual scenario indicates that the SP and bishop know what they want coming to you, then have the so-called "disciplinary council" to validate the outcome. And generally, any form of appeal is unsuccessful, since that would have the appearance of invalidating the "inspiration" of those involved.

As far as privacy goes--YOUR privacy--it's pretty much hosed already. The LDS church has a sort of institutional gossiping mechanism built into it. The bishop will speak openly of you at PEC. A full complement of PEC members would be the bishop and his two counselors, the EQ pres and his two counselors, the HP group leader and his assistant, the ward mission leader, the executive secretary, and two young male missionaries representing the local mission. Naturally, the full PEC monty is seldom seen, but I'm just saying. All your personal info will be given out and discussed openly in PEC, and your secrets will be allowed to escape the levy. After that breach, there is a real chance that everyone in the ward will know your most intimate secrets.

Many/most of us here would advise you to say no more about this to your bishop or stake president, no matter what the terms of your friendship. Many/most of us here now believe that the bishop has no more control or authority over you than the local Target or Fred Meyer cashier. So it's time start cultivating that attitude. This whole thing will hurt you personally, which is bad enough. But it likely will hurt your family, as well, which I'm sure you don't want. Many of us feel your pain in a very real fashion.

(SL Cabbie gave good advice: Read stuff by Simon Southerton, much posted on another site that I'm not allowed to mention here. I guess you can just google it. He is a gentleman, and I'm sure you can write him directly, too. I did, and he answered and helped me considerably. For anything of a more academic nature, should you want to pursue doctrinal things and answers to difficult questions, don't forget to use Bob McCue as a resource. He's another great guy.)

Thanks all for the advice. Just for the record, I don't feel any personal loss at all no matter the outcome, so I have already decided that they have no "real" control over how I feel. I'm mostly testing to see if there is really anything left of benefit from all the relationships I have built up.

I doubt my activity/inactivity levels will be changed no matter the outcome, just interested to see what level of humanity is left at the local level if any.

This situation reminds me of the ending of the movie "Labyrinth". When the girl despairs and thinks she has no way out of the situation, she finally realizes all she has to do is say out loud "You have no power over me"... when she does, the Goblin King's whole empire crumbles, and she is free again. I get so indignant seeing the way people are treated by these lowly men (yes, they're just common men, all the way to the "prophet"), that sometimes I almost feel like joining this church so I can just flip a finger on them, tell them off, and leave at the very first time they try to manipulate me. I would love to see their faces. I know that for BICs this isn't an easy option, especially when there are believing spouses and kids involved.

But do try your best to distance yourself as much as you can from this destructive cult, and maybe leave it altogether some day. This is just an exotic religion, and it doesn't own god or salvation, whatever it means. YOU own your own destiny.

I have been told by a big wig in church education system and stake president that it is the only one he ever heard of it happening.

I had a teenage family member wrongly excommunicated by the bishop. I went to the stake president and got an appeal hearing. After hours of talking and wasted time the Stake president reversed the excommunication. The stake president stated he did not want to do it but he had to because the spirit told him to. The bishop was a giant douchebag and it was obvious it was a revenge excommunication aimed at my family member.

The most important thing is they are obsessed with protecting the image of the church. If it makes them look bad they will uphold their decision. In the case I was involved in it made the church look so bad to have exed this teenager they felt it was better to remove it.

This happened in the Upland Ca. ward under a douchebag bishop several years ago.

You always have the option to walk away from this so-called church whose foundation is pure fiction.

Also, NEVER divulge to a church leader anything you want kept private!
Your "problem" will be discussed in meetings under the guise of helping you. Before long, it is all over the stake.

No one has to go to any church. No church has no right discipline. The church can mind it's own business. If a person never goes to church think of all the crap they miss out on.

The disturbing thing here is the implication that the kids might find out about your "sin."

When hubby cheated on me years ago, I was crying in the Bishops office and he flat out told me to tell my kids-- we're talking a 13 year old, and an 11 year old. He said to tell them so they could support me through this trial. WTF?

This is why it's so dangerous to give personal information to these quacks. They aren't trained therapists. They are just your stupid neighbors. Even if you decide to remain active, they don't need to know!

And no. To this day, my children are unaware that my hubby and I almost divorced or that there was any infidelity. They were kids!!

Wow, I can't believe a thinking adult would tell you to drive a wedge in between your children's relationship with their own dad. And then to justify it by saying it's so THEY can support YOU? Who would think causing children emotional trauma is a good thing?

That right there will stop any disciplinary process in it's tracks and you no longer have to deal with this BS. Trust me, every single time someone goes into a court of luv the information is spread all over the stake.

As a child I knew of everyone's extramarital affairs in the stake. These guys go home and tell their wives, who tell their friends, who's children overhear, who tell your children...You get the point? The only way to stop this is to totally disassociate with these judgmental people and get away.

There is no policy anywhere that these meetings are kept strictly confidential, and even if they lie and tell you it is, there is no recourse for if your personal business ends up being the latest on the gossip board.

V.