My family used this a bit growing up--guilting you into doing something; the church uses it quite a bit..I've read here about other families who do it and never quite understood until now..a family we are friends with likes to manipulate people to take care of their kids. I had enough one day and said no, and the wife (who says she's no longer LDS but uses VTers like she is) sent me back a scathing email which basically said how dare you say no to me! It's not my fault you have a problem saying no (which I thought was funny because I just did say no and she doesn't know me that well), and this sense of entitlement that I should help her like it was expected of me just because I was LDS. It was quite eye opening to me..later I heard from the husband that she quit going to church with him because of me...interesting since I don't go that much to begin with and she doesn't know me. So they've left us alone for quite some time now and yesterday the husband emails me trying to guilt me into picking up his kid from school in a passive agressive way--keep in mind picking up his kid really means I watch him til 5 when mom comes home from work. I have kids of my own, school and I work too--hell I'm busy. It is interesting me how quickly I was able to spot his manipulation tactics this time though and avoid them--walking out of the LDS sphere is a good thing. But it makes me wonder what both of their families are like for them to be this bad--they manipulate each other for hell's sake!

So my point is--what kind of passive agressive manipulation is used on you? Do you see it? Are you able to say no?

Why on earth do they think you'd ever want to do anything for them again, after writing you a scathing e-mail? Yeah, good luck to them. Geesh.

Yeah, I had a very manipulative friend. She dumped me when I left the Church, because I guess I was no longer of any use to her. A big reason too, is that I started saying, "No."

I figured out that I was only her best friend in the world when I was useful to her. As soon as I began having a mind of my own, I was unceremoniously dumped.

that only worked on my parents! i just realized that they never say no to anything but i started saying no to talks and prayers when i was 11.

She didn't want to go anyway, and your new unwillingness to be at her beck and call to take care of or help chauffer her children provided a convenient excuse.

I would not assume that her desire to avoid going to the 3-hour block is because she questions the truthfulness of the church, however. It is more probable that she just finds it overwhelming to get herself and her children there.

Anyway, good for YOU for recognizing the manipulation for what it was, and saying “no”! Learning to set boundaries with others just an essential part of recovery from Mormonism.

Yeah I thought that was funny because if she knew me she would know I wouldn't want her to go anyway. LOL! She's supposedly Buddhist and was coming with him to the LDS church if he'd go to her church--but after the incident with me refused to come with him anymore, citing me as the reason! Crazy huh? I think it was to avoid to much church on Sunday myself. He still comes with the kids on occasion but must have found someone else to help them because sometimes the older kids come alone.

Since Mormons are offended so easily and that's why everyone leaves (outside of the need to sin big time), this makes perfect sense! :) Since she's pretty much inactive, it's a good workable excuse, particularly for the husband, who presumably is uber TBM. It's unfortunate Jessica catches the brunt and becomes the "bad guy," but what more can you expect from Mormons? Everything is passive-aggressive, skirting the issues, slipping under the radar, plopping others under the bus, and lying...it's almost laughable.

I was raised in a passive aggresive environment, and have manipulated people most of my life using the same tactics, as has my wife.

We both came to the realization that it was killing our relationship. Once we both started calling each other out when we were using it, it improved our relationship tremendously.

Being able to recognize this behavior has also helped me heal from most of my childhood programming. I never comprehended how terribly destructive it is, and how quickly you can begin to heal once you stop using and accepting it.

that I talk a lot about: take your power back and own it.
Refuse to give other people permission to fall into their manipulative traps.
You are under no obligation to take any guilt trips you don't want to take!

There is no entitlement from anyone else to manipulate you into doing something that is not your choice.

Take your power back and own it means: you don't give anyone else permission to mess up your day (upset you)! They can harp and try guilting you and insult you and on and on and you can, if you own your own power, refuse to capitulate. You can remain neutral and never take an ounce of their behavior on yourself.
It's hard to do initially, but once you get the hang of it, it's impossible to manipulate you ...because...you own your own power and your don't give anyone else power to do that!

Try it! Try remaining neutral. Listen, understand someone is voicing what is going on with them, and if you are unable or don't want to deal with what they want, you can politely, civilly decline with a smile and say clearly: I am unable to be of any help to you. I'm sure you'll figure it out.
Then leave, or change the subject.

You can have an "appointment" and be unavailable also. Remember it's OK to have an appointment with yourself! :-)

I like this quote from the book The Four Agreements.

The Second Agreement
Don't Take Anything Personally
Become immune to poison
The whole world can gossip about you,and if you don't take it personally, you are immune. Immunity to poison in the middle of hell is the gift of the Second Agreement
From: The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz

+100000...

It felt so good to say no this time around too! :)

She'll often call me or someone ELSE and whine about what she wants and can't do. Sometimes it's in hopes that that person will offer to do what she wants/needs for her. Sometimes I think it's so that person will call and pressure/guilt someone else into helping her. Often she'll imply or outright state that she can't get people to help her. It has been standard method of operation for YEARS and has caused resentments between people who know her, who mostly don't realize how emotionally unhealthy she is.

She makes sure to tell everyone ELSE when someone helps her, too. . . . "Cousin Matilda is such a sweetheart. Do you know what SHE did for me?" And proceed to bestow sainthood on that person.

She has said things to imply she's been neglected to people who probably don't know to take her with a grain of salt. And then she's told me about how that person felt sorry and is going to help her. And she doesn't seem to see that she's implying that everyone else (me included) has dropped the ball, and that implication is rude to me. Especially since she hasn't ASKED for what she needed, or CANCELLED almost every time when I offered to take her somewhere.

After one session of that, someone offered to take her whereever she wanted on a regular schedule. I never heard back about how that went. (And she WOULD have rubbed it in if it had happened). Probably after she cancelled 6-7 times on them, they gave up on helping her and now THEY get to feel guilty. too.

A few years ago I had a frank, but friendly, discussion with someone she "triangulates" to pressure other people into doing things for her. I told him that she's a big girl and if she wants something she can ask me herself. Otherwise I won't do it. Nobody has tried that since.

I also ignore hints and whines.

I'm willing to help when I can, but I do NOT like to be manipulated.

She's terribly afraid of rejection but, knowing it isn't healthy for her to continue to hint instead of asking I gently confronted her on it. I told her that hinting is manipulation and can really offend people, although I assured her I wasn't offended. (Which was true, I know she's not actually trying to manipulate, she's just desperately trying to avoid hearing "no".) And then I told her I understood why she didn't feel okay to ask but encouraged her to practice doing so anyway. I pointed out that "no" isn't going to harm her if she does hear it and also that we are her friends and aren't going to tell her "no" unless we really have to.

She's healing and growing stronger but she has a long way to go. She grew up in an abusive situation and then married a man who abused her (mostly verbally) for another 25 years. I'm actually pretty proud of her for being able to start healing at this point.

Sometime last year, my DH bishop ran into us, evidently, the bish had asked DH to do a talk in church that coming Sunday, so he came over to us, to ask DH how his talk was going and said to me that he was going to ask me to give the talk...well I told him that would NEVER happen, I am NOT mormon afterall, why the hell would I give a talk, considering the man has never seen me in church, I thought the request was rather strange, even stranger was his reponse, he acted like I'd threatened to murder his first born child...now I know, because mos never turn anything down, that must have been his passive aggresive way of asking me to give a talk on some future date. He probably expected me to say, "Oh I would be happy to give a talk in church." It must have been quite a shocker for him when I told him "not in this life time."

When I was exiting, I made this flow chart to help me learn how P.A.M. works.

http://i51.tinypic.com/1jupm1.jpg

I realized that I was co-dependent on several P.A. manipulators. One of my symptoms was chronic, constant apologizing. Walking on eggshells.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2012 01:20PM by Jesus Smith.

This is excellent, thanks!

I didn't realize when I got married that my (now ex) husband was a PAM.
He's still trying to do his thang, but using the kidlets.
His new wife is actually worse than he is...
I almost feel sorry for him, being on the receiving end and trying so dutifully to live up to her expectations.