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Posted by: goodbook ( )
Date: November 21, 2010 06:00PM

First of all, thanks so much for all of you on this forum! I have been a 'lurker' for years now as I have a daughter who became a mormon about 17 years ago. She is now 38. She was introduced to 'it' in high school as the guy she was dating ( married him) was mormon and so was his step mom. The step mom actually instructed my daughter and brought bishops to her house years ago, all unbeknown to dh and me!! I think back on that and it makes me so mad that a mother would "coerce" my daughter into the "only true religion"!! Why if it is so "true" would it be hidden from me and my husband?? Anyway, once our daughter came to us, mind you we were not of any particular faith, just church once in awhile, she asked us if she could be baptized and we said no! We had 2 other kids at home and I tried to explain to her I did not want them exposed to that faith. A few years later she married her high school 'sweetheart' and about a year after that she was baptized in the mormon church. I have since been 'born again' and baptized myself in a non-denominational church. She has even attended church with me and likes the Pastor, just recently she went to a Beth Moore(christian speaker) speaking engagement with me and loved it!! She left the church once about 5 years ago but admitted the pressure to come back was huge! Her husband hardly ever attends, mostly because of his job but her son, our grandson who is 14 now goes to everything. Sadly, I quit trying to get her to stop going as I decided I would rather have a relationship with her than argue about the stupid mormon church (man, that felt good to say). Is there anything I can do? I just get so frustrated sometimes. Maybe there are things I should be saying? Sorry this is so long!

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Posted by: Phillip ( )
Date: November 21, 2010 06:21PM

I am the son of a loving mother who feels that it is in my best interest to return to church.

I have to say that our relationship is best when she accepts me for who I am, and pretends to respect what I believe. I think it's difficult for a mother to let her children go, especially when her child isn't doing what she thinks is best for them.

My advice is to find a way to respect her belief, make an attempt to sincerely understand. Not because you want her to change but because you want to know who your daughter has become. I would also suggest that you avoid the subject until you're ready to accept whoever that person is.

There's nothing I would like more from my mother than to know that she accepts me, and respects me for coming to my own conclusions.

She may never leave. That's okay, she'll still be your adoring daughter 'till the day you die.

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Posted by: vhainya ( )
Date: November 21, 2010 06:23PM

I'm really sorry you are going through this. Do you want her to get away from the Mormon church at this point because of your new faith?

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Posted by: paintinginthewin ( )
Date: November 21, 2010 06:24PM

possibly you'll even travel to a beach together, or for a hobby, or take a uh digital photography class for a super camera you both buy one together.

could maybe this be about a unity of love and being in community as a mother and daughter- darn the economy darn the job darn the whatever? its not like we need to be zombies together or anything to really love is it?(I mean all running the same way following the same people with swarms of other people)

I think the bet about changing some one else- so they will agree more with me or you- is in the air. I think chances are if you or me want someone else just to = stop it! stop thinking like that and think like me instead! now! soon! is like really bad. Because you can re enact where she reacts rebelling against you and doing someone different from you- to feel good - if you push push push her to stop being her and be like you instead , you might get push-back (just like that when she was a teenager and got converted behind your back.)
I know you dont' want that.

it sounds great she enjoyed going somewhere with you. Why not make many more places that aren't about religion? that aren't about apolitical position? so she can enjoy leisure with you, and grandkid time with you, and eating or cookng or shopping or walking or painting or volunteering or pet grooming or getting your nails done- with you.

Why can't you find that instead and make it your number one goal- rather than this underlying plea or frustration that your adult daughter's ideas are not 'just like me'?

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Posted by: Summer ( )
Date: November 21, 2010 07:03PM

...except to respect her beliefs.

But I would talk to her about taking what church authorities say with a grain of salt. Tell her that God gave her a brain for a reason, and it wasn't to hand it over unquestioningly to someone else.

I would also tell her to give church its proper place in her life. If all she can talk about is church, her callings, etc., then her life has grown unbalanced, and she needs to give the church less of her time and her family and other activites more time.

And along with that goes the ability, and desirability of saying, "No." It's okay to refuse callings, streams of requests, cleaning the church building, etc. (In regard to the latter, the Mormon church takes in more money through tithing than any other American denomination. It probably returns the least amount, by far, of any church to its local membership. The church has spent millions of dollars building a new mall out in Salt Lake City, and they own dozens of businesses. They can afford to pay for church custodians and cleaners. They just don't want to.)

The more you can encourage her to think for herself, the better off she'll be.

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Posted by: imaworkinonit ( )
Date: November 22, 2010 01:59AM

I think you focus on the relationship, not trying to change her.

And never put her on the defensive by attacking her beliefs.

BUT, you could encourage her to pay attention when something doesn't feel right. She doesn't have to blindly accept assignments, or follow when it doesnt' feel right.

My husband helped by trying to mitigate my overdeveloped guilt complex. For him, that involved humor. He'd poke fun at my guilt when I got upset about some small imperfection I had, and helped me put things in perspective (we have the kind of relationship where mockery worked, but it depends on how you relate to each other). I think a sense of inadequacy is probably the number one issue with Mormon women, and probably a big cause of depression which is so prevalent. Because SOOO much is expected, and it's pretty much impossible to do it all.

And if a woman DID come close to doing it all, they would probably be exhausted and find that it didn't bring the promised fulfillment and happiness.

My personal opinion is that Mormonism just doesn't work as promised. Jumping through all the hoops doesn't make people happy and fulfilled or spiritual, or bring out their unique personalities and skills. It doesn't bring rich "blessings" or keep people from having problems in life. It just makes them tired and depressed. Sooner or later, it will probably hit her that it's just not working as expected.

But until then, just be a supportive mom.

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Posted by: caedmon ( )
Date: November 21, 2010 07:33PM

I am the mother of an adult daughter who converted while in college. She married her DH (who is a great guy) in a Mormon temple and we were not "worthy" to attend. It still hurts.

She's an adult. You will have to let her make her own decisions - even bad ones.

You are absolutely right that a relationship with her is more important than to prove you are right about Mormonism. (And you are right.) I've had to withhold comment many, many times but it has paid off. They will be at our house for Thanksgiving. That wouldn't have been possible if they felt they were going to be attacked every time they came over.

Be a supportive, loving mother and grandmother. If your grandson (or DD or her DH) eventually leave Mormonism, he will need your love and support.

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Posted by: goodbook ( )
Date: November 21, 2010 09:09PM

Thank you all for your comments and caring. I should clarify that my dh and I do have a good relationship with our daughter. We 'gave up' long ago trying to persuade her to leave the mormon church. Mostly because it became very difficult to have a relationship her. I just feel badly for her because she seems so stressed out alot of the time trying to 'prove' her 'goodness'!!
I do try to be supportive and we do alot of things together, not just christian speaking events. I don't want to change who she is, I just know deep down in my heart that what she is being told is garbage!!! I just thought maybe I was missing something that I could tell her, something that made all of you think about leaving the mormon church. Again, thank you all so much!! It really helps to read about others going through the same thing.

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Posted by: goodbook ( )
Date: November 21, 2010 09:09PM


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Posted by: srlowther ( )
Date: November 22, 2010 01:02AM

With your last posting, I think you have said it all. What you are describing as to her sense of inadequacy is very pervasive in the LDS Church, but not universal. They even will recognize among themselves as the "Molly Mormon" complex, but I think in most cases there is a degree of denial as to how deep it goes in the individual.

If you mention the "Molly Mormon complex" to your daughter, she will recognize it. Just be very careful to not sound condemning of the Church when you talk to her about it.

It sounds like you are careful and considering in your actions. That is what makes you a good mother. Continue exercising your wisdom.

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Posted by: FreeAtLast ( )
Date: November 22, 2010 04:18AM

As you probably realize from posts on this board, the LDS Church does not disclose to potential converts 'faith-disrupting' facts about Mormonism founder Joseph Smith, early Mormon Church history, the Book of Mormon, and other key aspects of Mormonism. What she was told by the missionaries, the guy she was dating (and married), and Mormons she met and began to form emotional connections to was 'faith-promoting' LDS information - propaganda.

Like your daughter, my mother joined the LDS Church (at age 29) against the will of her mother. Many people have become Mormons against the wish of their parents. As any psychologist will tell you, doing so is part of the individuation process that happens - for most people - during their teen and young adult years. There's a psychological drive (inner 'push') to individuate oneself - make oneself distinct from the collective of one's family-of-origin.

So, young people listen to music, dress or otherwise alter their appearance, hang out with certain 'bad news' individuals, join a group, and so on that their parents don't like, think would not be right for them, etc. By joining the LDS Church and marrying a Mormon, your daughter was making herself distinct from the 'tribe' of her family. Perfectly normal.

The key to having a half-decent (at least) relationship with your daughter is to - inside your mind/self - non-judgmentally accept what's she done - and don't rescue her from the consequences of her decisions.

Having said that, 17-18 years ago (before the Internet), your unsuspecting daughter wouldn't have realized that the 'warm and fuzzy' info. about Mormonism that was being shared with her by the LDS Church, her boyfriend and his step mom, and other Mormons was white-wash. Like millions of other people, she had the right then to be told the full truth about Mormonism. The Mormon Church concealed from her info. that if she'd known it, she might not have joined.

We can't change the past, but we can take action to alter the present and (hopefully) future. I suggest you adopt a seemingly subtle approach to exposing 'faith-disrupting' facts about Mo-ism to your daughter. Doing so will take some preparation and savvy-ness on your part. The objective is to crack open her 'faith' in Mormonism without her realizing that you're doing so.

The best place to start is with official LDS info. Why? Because Mormons are psychologically inclined to fully accept it and believe that it's true, while non-official 'troubling' material about Mormonism typically has Latter-day Saints mentally ignoring it, trivializing it, or condemning it without even reading or watching it.

The LDS Church's official monthly magazine for adult members is called The Ensign. It contains articles by senior church leaders and members that bolster Mormons' 'faith' in the church.

Just over 17 years ago, a Mormon Apostle, Russell Nelson (he's still alive and is a senior member of the Quorum of 12 Apostles of the LDS Church) wrote an article about The Book of Mormon entitled "A Treasured Testament". Elder (his title) Nelson's article was published in the July 1993 issue of The Ensign and is on the LDS Church's website at www.lds.org

Nelson discussed how the Book of Mormon was translated (supposedly) by Joseph Smith (JS), Jr. ('the Prophet of the Restoration', according to the LDS Church). Your daughter and millions of other converts to Mormonism were taught - as millions of people raised in the LDS religion have been for generations - that JS was visited by an angel named Moroni when JS was a teenager and told that not far from the Smith farm, there was a set of ancient gold plates buried in a stone box hidden in a hill. When God wanted, Moroni showed JS the location of the box and the lad extracted the gold plates and other items in the box, including two 'translators' and a breastplate. The official account is on the LDS Church's scriptures website at http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/27-54#27

If you ask your daughter how the Book of Mormon (BoM) came into being, you'll probably hear something about JS 'translating' the BoM through the 'gift and power of God'. You could then say to her: "If I told you that Joseph Smith used a rock that he believed possessed a supernatural power and his hat to translate the Book of Mormon, would you believe me?" Her response would probably be an emphatic "No", and where did you hear such anti-Mormon nonsense.

You could then read her (or e-mail to her) the following quote:

"Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man."

Then ask your daughter: "Do you know where I got that quote?"

Again, she would probably say it was from an anti-Mormon source.

You could then inform her that the quote came from an article written by senior LDS Apostle Russell Nelson ("A Treasured Testament"), which was published in the July 1993 issue of The Ensign Magazine and is on the church's website (go to www.lds.org and use the Search function and article title to find it).

Unless your daughter was aware of the article, she'll probably be a bit shocked. A 'seer stone' and a hat were used by JS to 'translate' the BoM, not buried gold plates upon which the history of great civilizations in the ancient Americas were supposedly engraved, and centuries later 'translated' by JS?! The 'magical' appearance of "something resembling parchment" inside JS' hat upon which English and ancient characters supernaturally appeared?!

Ask your daughter: "Do you believe the LDS Church's published account of the strange 'translation' method used by Joseph Smith in relation to the Book of Mormon?" You might be met with silence, or words hinting that your daughter is confused. Why the confusion? Because the LDS Church's 'warm and fuzzy' propaganda about JS certainly doesn't include any mention of a supernatural 'seer stone' and JS putting his face into his hat to 'translate' the crucial book of LDS scripture, the BoM!

Where was JS' unorthodox 'translation' method shown to Latter-day Saints and non-Mormons? In the South Park cartoon, "All About the Mormons", seven years ago (ref. http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s07e12-all-about-the-mormons).

You could print out Nelson's article and highlight the quote and give it to your daughter, have her read it, and ask her if she believes it's true. If she says "Yes", you'll know that she's REALLY psychologically ensnared in cultic Mormonism.

You can also ask her why the LDS Church hasn't taught her - and millions of other members and potential converts - over the past 17 years that JS used a 'seer stone' and his hat to 'translate' the BoM.

The point of gently confronting her with this info. and asking such questions is to (hopefully) get your daughter to wake up to the demonstrable fact that the LDS Church has not been honest with her. Bear in mind that using the 'battering ram' of irrefutable facts to hit against the 'fortress wall' of somebody's religious belief system is psychologically stressful for them. Much of your daughter's ego (identity/self-concept) has been wrapped up in Mormonism for nearly half her life. That ego is like a house and by presenting her with 'faith-disrupting' info., your shaking the framework. She might get angry and very defensive.

The next step - at some point - would be to introduce your daughter to the fact that JS made other men's wives, single women in their 20s to 50s, and teenage girls as young as 14 his plural wives (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/). The teenage girls were young enough to be his daughters! Here's relevant text from a post I did earlier this year:

One of the best ways of cracking open Mormons' 'faith' is to reveal to them the fact that Joseph Smith (JS) was a liar, manipulator, adulterer and pedophile.

The LDS Church's section summary for D&C 132, the 'revelation' on polygamy written (down) by JS just over 166 years ago, says:

"Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501–507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831."

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132)

According to LDS scripture, two key polygamy "principles" were:

i. A Mormon priesthood holder could desire and marry only virgins who were "vowed to no other man" (i.e., not betrothed to a fiancée, or married).
ii. The first wife (Emma, in JS' case) had to give her consent to the plural marriage.

The scripture in question was D&C 132:61:

"And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else."

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/61#61)

In the case of 11 women that 'prophet' and Mormon Church president Joseph Smith made his plural wives, they were already vowed to their husband, and as married women, certainly not virgins (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/).

"...for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else." The 11 women belonged to their husband.

JS committed adultery at least 11 times (12, actually, when you include his extra-marital affair with teenager Fanny Alger, servant girl in the Smith home; ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/02-FannyAlger.htm).

The LDS Church has a partial list of the married women, single women, and teenage girls that JS made his plural wives on the church's genealogy website at http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp

Enter Smith's first and last name, birth year (1805) and birth place (Vermont, United States). Click on Search. Then click on the underlined Joseph Smith (Ancestral File 1). Scroll down to see the partial list of his plural wives. Note when he (at age 37) married Helen Mar Kimball (May 1843) and her age by clicking on her name (she was just 14).

JS' marriage to Fanny Alger can be viewed on the church's FamilySearch.org website by entering her first and last name, marriage year to JS (1835) and selecting "United States" and "Ohio" from the drop-down menus, and clicking on Search, then continuing from there.

Why did Joseph Smith make married women his plural wives - committing adultery in the process - when the Lord forbade it, and did so not just once or twice, but 11 times? Why wasn't he excommunicated for adultery?

The Mormon Church and LDS 'prophets' have taught for generations that adultery is a 'sin' next to murder and any church member who has committed adultery does not have the Holy Ghost with him/her and cannot receive revelation from God.

JS disobeyed the 'revealed' word of God (directly to him, no less) every time he desired, pursued and married a married Mormon woman. In the case of at least one of them, Sylvia Lyon (married to Windsor Lyon), JS fathered her daughter:

“On January 27, 1844 her [Sylvia’s] only surviving child, Philofreen, also died. At this time, Sylvia was eight months pregnant with her fourth child, Josephine Rosetta Lyon. Josephine later wrote, “Just prior to my mothers death in 1882 she called me to her bedside and told me that her days were numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and from all others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith”. (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/08-SylviaSessionsLyon.htm)

In May 1843, JS made a 14-year-old, two 17-year-olds and a 19-year-old his plural wives. The 14-year-old, Helen Mar Kimball, was his youngest-yet plural wife, as the genealogy data on the list of JS' plural wives on FamilySearch.org shows.

One wonders why, of all the single women in Nauvoo who were in their 20s and 30s, JS pursued and married teenage girls young enough to be his daughters and other men's wives.

On July 12, 1843, just two months after JS married the teenage girls mentioned above, he wrote down a 'divine' death threat ("threat of destruction") directed at his first and only legal wife, Emma (who was Relief Society president) if she didn't accept his plural wives, remain with him, "cleave unto" him, and accept polygamy. D&C 132:52 and 54:

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those [plural wives] that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure [virgins] before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law [polygamy].

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/52#54)

How extraordinarily convenient for JS that the Lord was willing to turn a blind eye to his adultery (no rebuke, no revelation that he should be excommunicated), and back him up in his practice of polygamy by threatening to kill (destroy) Emma if she didn't get on JS' polygamy 'wagon' pronto!

According to the 'revelation' on polygamy that JS wrote down on July 12, 1843, the reason for plural marriage was to get virgins pregnant so that they would bear children, thereby increasing God’s glory:

“But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.”

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/63#63)

In JS' day, the only way for Mormon women and teenage girls to "bear the souls of men" was to become pregnant through sexual intercourse (human artificial insemination wasn't developed until the 1940s).

Gaining access to females who could "multiply and replenish the earth" was important to JS. In the case of 16-year-old Lucy Walker, whose mother died after the Walker family converted to Mormonism and moved to Nauvoo in the spring of 1841, he separated the teenage girl from her father (by sending him away on a 2-year mission to the Eastern United States) and her surviving siblings (her sister, Lydia, had died only months before of “brain fever”) by placing her siblings with families in Nauvoo and ‘inviting’ the unsuspecting girl to live in the home of ‘the Prophet’ (himself).

“While living in the Smith home, Lucy remembers: “In the year 1842 President Joseph Smith sought an interview with me, and said, ‘I have a message for you, I have been commanded of God to take another wife, and you are the woman.’ My astonishment knew no bounds. This announcement was indeed a thunderbolt to me...He asked me if I believed him to be a Prophet of God. ‘Most assuredly I do I replied.’...He fully Explained to me the principle of plural or celestial marriage. Said this principle was again to be restored for the benefit of the human family. That it would prove an everlasting blessing to my father’s house.”

“What do you have to Say?” Joseph asked. “Nothing” Lucy replied, “How could I speak, or what would I say?” Joseph encouraged her to pray: “tempted and tortured beyond endureance until life was not desirable. Oh that the grave would kindly receive me that I might find rest on the bosom of my dear mother...Why – Why Should I be chosen from among thy daughters, Father I am only a child in years and experience. No mother to council; no father near to tell me what to do, in this trying hour. Oh let this bitter cup pass. And thus I prayed in the agony of my soul.”

Joseph told Lucy that the marriage would have to be secret, but that he would acknowledge her as his wife, “beyond the Rocky Mountains”. He then gave Lucy an ultimatum, “It is a command of God to you. I will give you untill to-morrow to decide this matter. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you.”

“Lucy married Joseph on May 1, 1843. At the time, Emma was in St. Louis buying supplies for the Nauvoo hotel. Lucy remembers, “Emma Smith was not present and she did not consent to the marriage; she did not know anything about it at all.”’ (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/23-LucyWalker.htm)

Not informing Emma of his latest plural marriage and first obtaining Emma’s consent was a violation of the Lord’s commandment to JS: “…if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent...for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.”

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/61#61).

Secretly marrying Lucy Walker was not the first time that JS did not obtain Emma’s consent (she discovered her husband and teenage servant girl Fanny Alger having sex in the barn and complained to Mormon Apostle Oliver Cowdery, Joseph’s second cousin and BoM scribe, about her husband’s extra-marital affair; Fanny was sent away by Emma because the teenage girl was “was unable to conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet”, in other words, Fanny’s swelling womb; ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/02-FannyAlger.htm).

In the BoM, in Jacob 2:24, it says:

"Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord."
(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jacob/2/24#24)

However, in the 'revelation' on polygamy that Joseph Smith wrote down on July 12, 1843, it says (in verse 1):

"Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines"
(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132)

How is it that in the BoM, the Lord, who according to scripture is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, condemned as "abominable" the practice of David and Solomon of having wives and concubines, but then contradicted himself in the 'revelation' on polygamy to JS by saying he "justified" (i.e., approved of) the practice?

Answer: When JS WROTE the BoM prior to its publication in 1830, he had only one wife: Emma. But in July 1843, when he wrote down the 'revelation' on polygamy that supposedly came from 'the Lord' (into his mind), he had several plural wives (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/). In July 1843, Joseph Smith had forgotten what he wrote about David and Solomon and their practice of having wives and concubines 13+ years earlier.
______________

A Seer Stone and a Hat - "Translating" the Book of Mormon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPnu0bx3oWg

For generations, a fundamental Book of Mormon (BoM) 'truth' was the following: "Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the Record of the People of Nephi; and also of the Lamanites; written to the Lamanites, which are a remnant of the House of Israel;" (ref. http://www.inephi.com/1.htm).

However, in light of DNA evidence of the past 20 years that has consistently shown that the ancestors of Native Americans came from northeast Asia and not from ancient Israel/Judea, as described in the BoM, the LDS Church has officially abandoned its 'truth' - taught to millions of church members and potential converts since JS' day - that American Indians are Jewish in origin (via Laman and Lemuel, who came from Jerusalem with Lehi, Sariah, Laman, Lemuel, and other Jewish family members).

Here is what the Introduction of 19th- to 20th-century editions of the BoM, including the 1981 edition that many Latter-day Saints living today used in church and at home, said (emphasis in capital letters is mine):

"The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel.

The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the PRINCIPAL ancestors of the American Indians."

Here is what JS wrote in March 1842 in a letter to John Wentworth, editor and proprietor of the Chicago Democrat newspaper:

"In this important and interesting book the history of ancient America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the Tower of Babel at the confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian era. We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites and came directly from the Tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem about six hundred years before Christ. They were principally Israelites of the descendants of Joseph. The Jaredites were destroyed about the time that the Israelites came from Jerusalem, who succeeded them in the inheritance of the country. The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country."

(ref. http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=c26876e6ffe0c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD)

Here is what the LDS Church is now saying (emphasis in capital letters is mine):

"The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel.

The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are AMONG the ancestors of the American Indians."

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/introduction)

"...among the ancestors of the American Indians" clearly implies that there were other ancient people(s) who were also the ancestors of Native Americans, which is, of course, exactly what scientists concluded (no evidence exists to support the Mormon idea of Jewish ancestry of American Indians).

The HUGE problem for the LDS Church is that for the BoM to be true, the ancestors of Native Americans have to be Jewish/come from ancient Israel/Jerusaleum, as described in the BoM."

The chief problem with Mormonism is that it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Science has proven that the 'keystone' of the LDS religion, the Book of Mormon, is a work of fiction (see the links below for details). Mormonism founder Joseph Smith, Jr. repeatedly failed to relate and even write a reasonably consistent version of his so-called 'First Vision' experience (see the link below). JS kept getting his age, the place, what he saw, and other major elements of the 'First Vision' wrong. Rational people don’t believe a ‘witness’ who tells versions of their ‘true’ story that conflict with versions previously told by the individual. People who won’t use their critical thinking and scrutinize what they’ve been told often do believe ‘charismatic’ types.

According to LDS Church presidents Ezra Benson and Gordon Hinckley in Gen. Conf. talks in Oct. 1986 and Oct. 2002 (online at www.lds.org), Mormonism stands or falls on the BoM being true (historically and in all other respects) and the First Vision having taken place (as per the official church version that has been taught to millions of members and potential converts). The facts are clear: Mormonism falls (the websites linked below provide many of these facts).

All religions, including Mo-ism, are the product of people's imagination (Joseph Smith, in the case of the Mormon religion, with 'spiritual' ideas from other Mormon 'prophets' being layered on during the past 7-8 generations since 1830).

You're not obliged to mentally regurgitate other people's 'spiritual' ideas, what they believe and feel is 'true', and demonstrable nonsense (there's lots of it in cultic Mormonism!).

You have the right to ALWAYS think for yourself and scrutinize what other people, including adult Mormons, have told you is 'true', 'right', 'the will of God', etc. You also have the right to reject all beliefs - religious or otherwise - that are not supported by the facts.

Latter-day Saints fail to understand that truth is independent of what the LDS Church says and what Mormons believe is 'true' when their 'truths' are not supported by solid evidence. Very importantly, their emotions - and emotion-based beliefs - are not an INFALLIBLE guide to the truth.

Here are very good resources that you can study to educate yourself about Mormonism and its history:

Early Mormonism and the Magic World View (by former BYU history professor Dr. D. Michael Quinn): http://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892

The Changing World of Mormonism: http://www.utlm.org/navonlinebooks.htm

To Those Who Are Investigating Mormonism: http://packham.n4m.org/tract.htm

PBS FRONTLINE + American Experience: "The Mormons" (4-hour documentary film aired on PBS in '07 that includes excerpts from interviews with President Gordon Hinckley, Mormon Apostles Boyd Packer and Jeffrey Holland and member of the First Quorum of the Seventy and church historian Marlin Jensen): http://www.pbs.org/mormons/

101 Doubts about Mormonism: http://packham.n4m.org/101.htm

Contradictions in Mormonism: http://packham.n4m.org/contra.htm

Rethinking Mormonism: http://www.i4m.com/think/

Joseph Smith's Changing First Vision Accounts: http://www.irr.org/mit/first-vision/fvision-accounts.html

Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church (by genetic researcher Dr. Simon Southerton, a former LDS bishop): http://www.amazon.com/Losing-Lost-Tribe-Native-Americans/dp/1560851813

"DNA vs. The Book of Mormon" (ref. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svfxSscxh8o)

Book of Mormon Tories (plagarisms in the BoM involving two American history books, one published in 1789 and the other in 1805, that were available to Joseph Smith): http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/magazine/pmm_article_full_text/211

The Lost Book of Abraham (more proof that Joseph Smith lied about his 'translation' ability): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyzkd_m6KE

The 'motherlode' of historical info. about Mormonism (including many quoted official church sources, and their references): http://www.utlm.org/navtopicalindex.htm

Digital photograph of the title page of the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon that shows that Joseph Smith was the author and proprietor (he claimed he was the 'translator' of the ancient gold plates): http://www.inephi.com/1.htm

The Untold Story of the Death of Joseph Smith: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvSo0ate4tM&feature=related

‘Faith-disrupting’ teachings and statements of Mormon ‘prophets’ (after Joseph Smith): http://mormonthink.com/prophetsweb.htm#apostleadmits

How Mormonism 'programs' people and affects their self-esteem: http://members.shaw.ca/blair_watson/

40 fears created by LDS 'programming': http://members.shaw.ca/blair_watson/fears.htm

Finally, respect your daughter's right to make her own decisions relative to Mormonism and the LDS Church, and simply love her and accept her for who she is, as she is. Unconditional love and acceptance can be powerful influences.

Good luck!

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Posted by: goodbook ( )
Date: November 22, 2010 10:36AM

FreeAtLast,

Wow! Thanks for the very good info on the mormons. I have to say that in the early days when my daughter was getting into the church I went through alot of this with her. I rented a video, took her to meet with a pastor who used to live and preach amongst the mormons in Utah, etc. I even, in one of my frustrations, said to her, " do you really believe all that stuff about js and going to all those levels of heaven?" Her response was something like she knew it was a "story" but she loves how the church encourages family! It's to a point now that we just don't discuss it but when she complains about her "callings" and even yesterday she commented that being at church all day gets old sometimes, I just clam up and let those statements "linger". Anyway, thank you so much and if I see an opportunity to relay some of this info, I will but it is difficult to not come across like I am trying to push.

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Posted by: FreeAtLast ( )
Date: November 22, 2010 08:19PM

People psychologically and emotionally inch their way out of über-dysfunctional Mormonism at their own speed. It's an 'organic' process. There have been - and will be - a myriad of factors beyond your and your daughter's control that will happen and may give her a nudge.

LDS 'callings' require too much time and lose their appeal - if they ever had any - rather quickly. Based on what I've read in the past few years, the Morg has become even more centralized in terms of top-down control, which has made life at the ward and branch level pretty dull.

Pretty much gone are the days of ward socials, frequent dances, youth events, ward and stake talent shows, etc., which provided fun and some balance to the Morg heaviness of constantly 'enduring to the end' as a Latter-day Saint.

How much fun can it be scrubbing toilets and otherwise cleaning the local LDS meetinghouse/chapel as a member-volunteer janitor because LD$ Inc. laid off custodians (years ago) to save money for its multi-billion-dollar Great-&-Spacious-Mall-and-Condos project in SLC and multi-million-dollar hotel in Hawaii that is being built this year?

The staleness of Mormonism, the chronic dishonesty of the LDS Church, and its never-ending demands on Latter-day Saints' time, energy, and money have driven away 100's of 1,000's of people during the past decade and a half. The same may happen for your daughter.

If she again complains about aspects of Mo-ism, you could say to her: "It's your life, honey. You're in charge. If something's not to your liking you can always take action to change your situation. No one's going to do it for you."

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Posted by: goodbook ( )
Date: November 22, 2010 11:14PM

I sure do try to take advantage of opportune moments and the "earn your way to heaven" really makes me nuts but I always say, when Jesus died he took away ALL your sins!!! All you have to do is ask Him to be in your life! She probably will never leave but I will never believe in that church either so we may just have to "not share that part of our lives"! Thanks again for the support, it means alot.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: November 23, 2010 02:31AM

Bringing it up very often, just gives the person reason to dig in more and more. It's what they want, it's their life, so I figure, leave them alone.

IF...someone comes to me, and asks me questions, I'll gauge carefully what I need to say.

My advice that I use myself: it's not an issue if I don't make it one. That position has the best results.

The most important thing to me is the relationship, not the religious beliefs.

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