bona dea, I've always admired your balanced and mature stance vis-a-vis religion on a board that naturally (and justifiably) brings out religious bigotry.

In T-Bone's Pope+condom thread you pointed out things to admire about Catholicism as a response to this by Nightingale: "I cannot begin to praise the Catholic Church for anything at this point." One of the things you wished to point out was Catholicism's anti-torture stance.

I think you need to relook at that:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/02/the-silence-of-the-bishops.html

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/02/thiessen-defends-torture-on-catholic-cable-channel-and-they-concur.html

It's one thing for RCC to hold stupid positions, like their position concerning homosexuality, but it's quite another thing for RCC to not stand by the positions they clearly have right, like anti-torture.

The silence of the American Bishops is unconscionable. And no amount of good-schooling can make up for this cowardice.

Human, venting

I never said they were perfect but I do like their position on this subject whether or not they always live up to it.The local Catholic bishop has made many of these issues his own.He iss standing up for what he believesand so are others. What a shock. Some people are hypocrites Again, I do not like this pope or many of the bishops, I object to the way he handled the child abuse scandal and other things, but I also object to statements such as bringing up Galileo,implying the church has always been against science, refusing to see that allowing HIV patients to use condoms is good [even if other things aren't] making stupid comments which imply that most priests are pedophiles or saying you are heartbroken for kids in Catholic schools and then getting offended because I don't know why that poster was offended.Uh, I don't know why because she didn't say. She was just heartbroken that the kid is in Catholic school. Maybe there are good reasons why this school isn't good, but I didn't hear them. I just heard a one sided diatribe. Sorry, I stand by what I say. Criticizing issues is one thing and there is a lot to criticize, but blatant anti Catholic bigotry is wrong. Sorry, but there is way too much of it on this board and I find it offensive.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2010 11:42PM by bona dea.

This post is addressed to the anon who was the last poster on the closed thread. I agree totally with what you said. Most Catholics consider the church as much theirs as the pope's and pay little attention to him when they disagree. I know a local deacon who advocates the use of birth control partly because the rhythm method doesn't allow safe sex when a woman's desire is at its peak.He said that celibate old men have no business dictating other people's sex lives I know another priest who holds special masses for gays even at the risk of censure. Catholics for the most part would ignore the pope if he said some of the dumb things the prophet has said. They wouldn't be falling all over themslves to take out their earrings or to cut their hair. They don't even obey him on birth control or premarital sex which are biggies for Rome. I wonder how much some of the Catholic bashers even know about the real church as opposed to Rome. That said, I also agree with you about this pope. I am not fan, but that doesn't mean he is always wrong.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2010 12:11AM by bona dea.

Yes, the whole Galileo thing is a childish strawman born out of ignorance, probably, more than anything else. And the pedophile thing is a really really old Catholic joke (alas). Also, being "heart-broken" because a niece is in Parochial school is plenty silly. There are many much bigger things to break one's heart (like American sponsored torture). And so on...

Like I said, I admire many of your posts and your willingness to stand against the crowd when the crowd gets silly. However, you can't be suprised, right, to find religious bigotry on a Recovery from Mormonism site? It probably plays a marginally constructive role in recovery.

Rather than be offended I hope you continue your role on RfM. There's nothing more boring than when everyone agrees. I enjoy your iconoclastic spirit, standing against many of the cherished beliefs on the board.

Cheers

Human Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, the whole Galileo thing is a childish
> strawman born out of ignorance, probably, more
> than anything else. And the pedophile thing is a
> really really old Catholic joke (alas). Also,
> being "heart-broken" because a niece is in
> Parochial school is plenty silly. There are many
> much bigger things to break one's heart (like
> American sponsored torture). And so on...
>
> Like I said, I admire many of your posts and your
> willingness to stand against the crowd when the
> crowd gets silly. However, you can't be suprised,
> right, to find religious bigotry on a Recovery
> from Mormonism site? It probably plays a
> marginally constructive role in recovery.
>
> Rather than be offended I hope you continue your
> role on RfM. There's nothing more boring than
> when everyone agrees. I enjoy your iconoclastic
> spirit, standing against many of the cherished
> beliefs on the board.

I'm not going anywhere and I am not going to stop calling people on their bigotry. Thanks and I agree with you about the bishops who won't support their own policies. They are hypocrites.A good example of something to break your heart is having your kid stuck in a bad public school and not graduating or not having basic skills such as reading if you do mange to graduate.Perhaps there are some real problems with this poster's niece, but it didn't sound that way in the original post. If there is more, I will apologize with the proviso that I can only judge by what a person writes.
>
> Cheers



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2010 11:58PM by bona dea.

I'm guessing there are far more Catholics who take the Pope and Catholic teachings seriously than there are Mormons who take the Mormon prophets teachings seriously. This is because there are far more Catholics than Mormons. So, even if most Catholics brush off teachings they don't like, I'm guessing the true blue ones still outnumber the true blue Mormons. The Catholic sphere of numbers and influence dwarfs Mormonism.

So, it does matter that the ones who do give the Pope validity perpetuate the harmful side of Catholic teachings.

It would be disingenuous not to see that obedient Mormons pale in comparison to obedient Catholics in the world due to sheer influence and numbers. There are plenty of Mormons who also often blow off their church teachings and recommendations from their prophet. Yet people on this board don't cut the Mormons a lot of slack for baby steps forward- for the same reasons many of us don't cut the Catholic Church slack.

This is why I find it baffling that credit is supposed to be given to Catholics on a board where Catholics have no problem criticizing Mormons. Go figure. Saying that "the Catholic Church isn't as bad" doesn't cut it because the volume of Catholic influence makes it worse, IMO. The good deeds done in Catholicism are not exclusive to religion, just like it isn't in Mormonism.

Everyone does a few things right. That doesn't necessarily make up for the general patterns of misleading and wrong actions.

I think all those Catholics who make up their own minds and supposedly don't care about the Pope still legitimize the things they claim to disagree with because they stay Catholic and keep looking for the baby steps to praise. I'm not sure the good outweighs the bad but it must for them.

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm guessing there are far more Catholics who take
> the Pope and Catholic teachings seriously than
> there are Mormons who take the Mormon prophets
> teachings seriously. This is because there are far
> more Catholics than Mormons. So, even if most
> Catholics brush off teachings they don't like, I'm
> guessing the true blue ones still outnumber the
> true blue Mormons. The Catholic sphere of numbers
> and influence dwarfs Mormonism.
>
> So, it does matter that the ones who do give the
> Pope validity perpetuate the harmful side of
> Catholic teachings.
>
> It would be disingenuous not to see that obedient
> Mormons pale in comparison to obedient Catholics
> in the world due to sheer influence and numbers.
> There are plenty of Mormons who also often blow
> off their church teachings and recommendations
> from their prophet. Yet people on this board don't
> cut the Mormons a lot of slack for baby steps
> forward- for the same reasons many of us don't cut
> the Catholic Church slack.
>
> This is why I find it baffling that credit is
> supposed to be given to Catholics on a board where
> Catholics have no problem criticizing Mormons. Go
> figure. Saying that "the Catholic Church isn't as
> bad" doesn't cut it because the volume of Catholic
> influence makes it worse, IMO. The good deeds done
> in Catholicism are not exclusive to religion, just
> like it isn't in Mormonism.
>
> Everyone does a few things right. That doesn't
> necessarily make up for the general patterns of
> misleading and wrong actions.
>
> I think all those Catholics who make up their own
> minds and supposedly don't care about the Pope
> still legitimize the things they claim to disagree
> with because they stay Catholic and keep looking
> for the baby steps to praise. I'm not sure the
> good outweighs the bad but it must for them.

Dagny ,my problem with you is that you rarely if ever see the slightest good in religion. Your view is so one sided that it is sad. I agree with you on some things, but I find your anti religious/bigotry offensive and even alarming. How about considering some of the good things churches do? There are a lot of them.Yes, those good deeds can be done outside of religion, but that does not mean religion shouldn't be given credit for what they do.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2010 12:20AM by bona dea.

My bigotry? Come talk to me when you have a female Pope.

I'm offensive, a bigot and alarming to you? That's how I feel about the Pope.

I guess I could say a few good things about cancer, but hey, it's cancer. I don't expect you to agree with the analogy but that's OK.

Must be the new power word

Dagny, people are not black and white. Even Hitler liked kids and dogs.That doesn't make up for the Holocaust, but liking kids and dogs is good,IMO. Yes, I know it only applied to Aryan kids, but that is better than hating all kids. Even if he was a mass murderer and a monster he had this one thing in his favor. BTW, how many freaking times do I have to say I don't like the pope or agree with m ost of what he does?That doesn't mean I can't see when he does something right and it doesn't mean I have to hate Catholics because the pope does not equal the church regardless of what you may think.If the pope pushed you out of the way of a train and died in the process, I suspect you find some reason to criticize him and impugn his motives. It really gets tiresome for me.

"If the pope pushed you out of the way of a train and died in the process, I suspect you find some reason to criticize him and impugn his motives."

Oh, brother. I'd obviously be grateful.
Sorry, but that was really a stupid thing to say.
That's all from this bigot tonight, folks! Nite.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2010 01:01AM by dagny.

It is a bit of hyperbole to make a point. You aren't supposed to take it 100% literally although I think there is some truth in it. The pope would have to do something pretty extraordinary to get the slightest approval from you, but you can say you admire Dawkins for not caring if the guy he shares the podium with supports legal sex with kids. I think I see a bit of a double standard.You'd be all over the pope if the situation was revered, I'll bet. Good night.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2010 01:16AM by bona dea.

Human to bona dea:
"In T-Bone's Pope+condom thread you pointed out things to admire about Catholicism as a response to this by Nightingale: "I cannot begin to praise the Catholic Church for anything at this point."

To be clear, I am referring to the institution that is the Catholic Church. I am not going to overlook the appalling abuse scandal because my Catholic aunt and her lady friends just held a successful bazaar to raise money for good deeds.

The point is not that "all Catholics are bad", so you all can stop bringing up that straw man. I have written posts about this before, how it is significant in my family that one of the biggest abuse scandals involved the entirety of the country of Ireland, the homeland of my maternal relatives, and why that makes it more personal and painful. My posts here have never been a tirade against Catholicism - quite the opposite. In fact, I have repeatedly asked how one can reconcile negative with positive so as to continue to uphold the institution (Catholic and others), because I wanted to stay in the believer's camp but there is a line I cannot cross (such as continuing to support an organization that is against the fundamentals of my own principles, which include protecting children from harm, not perpetrating and perpetuating harm).

Again, the point is not that the offender priests constitute "only" a small percentage of the total number of priests in the church. It is that high-level leaders did not move to protect the children and abolish the abusers.

As for my comment about my niece being in Catholic school, I don't want to get into personal details. I feel this board is all about being able to express one's feelings without (1) having to exhaustively explain real life personal details and (2) without getting scorned out for one's FEELINGS, which are different from OPINIONS. I feel that in the loose context of this being a recovery board, one's opinions are fair game for debate while feelings are personal and sensitive and aren't posted for people to weigh in with their big clodhoppers and scorn and ridicule people for expressing how they feel. I don't say I'm heartbroken lightly and of all my statements to focus in on that and tell me off about how I feel is hardly "therapeutic" thankyouverymuch. I would like just one example, bona dea, of where I have ever spoken to you in the rude and abrupt manner you use towards me. Saying I wish my niece were not in Catholic school hardly makes me a bigot and I am perfectly at liberty to express how I feel in that regard. I didn't even mean it is because of pedophile priests, if that is what is causing your heated reaction to my comment but thanks for adding another worry on top for me.

I am going to stick my neck out and say that it doesn't even seem to me that you were ever Mormon, bd. Either that or you had a lovely experience such that I wonder why you need to frequent this board. You don't seem able to even comprehend other viewpoints that don't square up with yours. I can usually at least see where someone else is coming from, whether I agree with them or not. Especially on this board, where people have been hurt by church, most often the Mormon Church but often others as well (i.e., see Beth's thread on this topic today) it should not be so surprising, or a source of outrage, that people would rightly be skeptical, opinionated, concerned, objectively-oriented and otherwise alert to similarities between their experiences within Mormonism and what is going on in other churches.

And especially will people have strong reactions to a call to respect or go easy on institutions like the Catholic Church because they do good work. I know they do. I am aware of Catholic women in the community who help many people and I have helped with preparing and serving meals at a local Catholic mission. And of course they do great work in the wider world. I have always been supportive of that. I have even often posted the suggestion that people in need contact Catholic Charities for assistance.

In my less supportive comments I am talking about my longstanding concern about how the _Catholic Leadership_ handles its grave issues. Also, as a nurse, I abhor any squelching of practices that will prevent and/or cure diseases, and any teachings that reject proven scientific advances. It makes as much sense to me that the Pope bans condoms as that he rejects mosquito netting. Both are devices to prevent killer diseases. I respect life and have tried to follow what I thought were "commandments" since my teen years, but I don't believe that God expects people to be stupid with it.

As I stated in my previous post, on the other thread, having arrived at rational, objective, reasonable conclusions after thought, reflection, research and experience does not a bigot make. Throwing that word around, especially on this board, is not the best argument I've ever heard.

As for your specific comments about my mention of my niece, bd, such as this:

"A good example of something to break your heart is having your kid stuck in a bad public school and not graduating or not having basic skills such as reading if you do mange to graduate.Perhaps there are some real problems with this poster's niece, but it didn't sound that way in the original post. If there is more, I will apologize with the proviso that I can only judge by what a person writes."

I was speaking from a certain perspective, in context so I thought, about the religious aspect of the Catholic schools. I don't believe it is possible to have ONE CHILD in an entire classroom who is not Catholic and to celebrate all the Catholic observances, including mass, IN THE CLASSROOM, and to hold concerts and other events, with a Catholic perspective (understandably) and not influence that child's mind. Having one atheist parent and one non-religious parent, it was a shock to me that my niece ended up in Catholic school. As a lifelong Protestant, I was never going to be happy with that choice on the face of it, but even more so now that I feel so strongly that young children should not be given a heaping dose of religion with their schooling. I believe my feelings/opinions are well thought out, based on reason, and do not constitute bigotry, in that I am not concerned because it is a Catholic school but that it is a religious school. Even as a Christian, I would hope for my nieces and nephews to be given a rounded education that includes input from all sides. Given my long string of negative religious experiences and firm belief that children should be taught to think, consider all perspectives, ask questions and root out accurate information, as well as not giving undue trust to authority figures, I think it's eminently reasonable to wish and hope and give input when asked as to how things go with my sibs' kids and all kids for that matter. I especially don't wish to see the females of the next generation taught to be submissive or second class or that they aren't the right gender to be leaders, etc. How does this make me a bigot? How does it make it right for you to repeatedly refer to my "heartbroken" comment in a scathing and ridiculing manner? I shouldn't have to post personal information in order to forestall your "judgement". I didn't know we were here to judge each other's opinions. Debate, yes. Judge, no.

As for your later comments about Hitler, I cannot believe my eyes. You would actually write that Hitler ain't all bad because he liked kids and dogs? Uh, he obviously didn't "like" Jewish kids. I think at this point the discussion is over. It's gone beyond the pale for me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2010 01:46AM by Nightingale.

i dont know about nighties niece... but i got a VERY good education at a Catholic school from the 1-6 grade.... and guess what despite being an alter boy... i was never molested.... damn it...i could be rich now!! (JK)... but the fact that all of those priests actions were swept under the rug cannot be denied nor defended! and i would never dismiss someones feelings... so if Nighty doesn't like her niece at a school.... dislike away! get her out if you can.

OMG, Nightengale, I made it clear that Hitler didn't like Jewish kids or any kids other than Aryan and I also made it clear that liking kids and dogs doesn't make up for the Holocaust.He did a million bad things and one good thing, but the million bad things don't negate the one good thing.Did you actually read my post?I made it clear he was still an evil monster. As far as your niece, I said that your original comment alone sounded like a anti Catholic rant and that I might not have all the details and that there could be problems I don't know about. However if you are unwilling to supply details, you can hardly expect me to know what you are talking about. I can only judge what you said, not the things you left out.
I agree with you on some issues, but I have noted that you are in the habit of writing posts against Catholics and in the post I was referring to, You said something to the effect that you could see no reason to give Catholics any credit. You later clarified what you meant, but again I can only comment on what you say, not what you left unsaid. You might want to go back and re read my post because I think I was clearer in it than you were in your original post.I am an ex Mormon whether you chose to believe it or not and I understand that people have been hurt by religion but that does not excuse bigotry and I do not particularly care if you like the word or not.There is a lot of it here and I am not necessarily singling you out so don't take it so personally.Like I said, I agree with some of your concerns and isagree with other things.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2010 02:27AM by bona dea.

I have stated at least four times now, I think, that I am directing my negative comments towards the Catholic Church **leadership**. Where have I ever once indicated that I am "ranting" against people who are Catholics?

Your reply there reminded me that I also wanted to address your characterization of my post on the Pope thread as a rant and a diatribe (I forget the exact language and can't search for it at the moment). I don't think my post even came across as angry, much less a rant. That is certainly not the spirit in which I wrote it. I also didn't parse every single word I chose to use in my post, especially as the niece at Catholic school part was a peripheral issue. I now regret bringing anything personal into the discussion.

As for the Hitler analogy you used, I guess there's just something about Hitler that _still_ makes people see red. I do now see your comments about him liking only Aryan kids. Still, I think your point is weakened by using such an extreme and emotion-laden example. You are saying, if I understand you correctly, that there are many good things about the Catholic Church and so people shouldn't focus on only the negative (like the Pope's stupidity wrt to issues and the widespread long term abuse). I see some merit to your opinion on that. I think that is what holds many people in that faith and why the church is able to float on its previous good regard for as long as it has and does. I am not aware of knowing any pedophile priests. I only know Catholics who are good people, some of them my relatives. I know two hospital chaplains who are among the top-most spiritual people I have ever met. I know nuns and other church workers and volunteers who are busy doing good for the community and the world every day. I do not rant against Catholic PEOPLE. I would hope that anyone who has read my posts for years on this board would note that I never rant against people in general. I even hesitate to criticize those who clearly deserve it, but I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt, and that makes me slower to conclude the obvious and inevitable at times (that sometimes people are not good and they lie and otherwise prove themselves untrustworthy).

So, as I said, I get your point on that and I don't see anywhere that I express bigotry or any ill-considered opinions or statements. In fact, sometimes I over-analyze to a fault. What is harder to see is your choice of analogy, involving Hitler having a/some good point/s in spite of his appalling deeds. I think your point is lost there, yes. Even if I re-read your post, I still don't get it. There surely has to be a point that no matter how many good traits you possess or deeds you do, there are some actions that negate them. You don't get a free pass on murder, for instance, because you served lunch at the soup kitchen.

Likewise, I think people at RfM, including me, give no quarter to sentiments such as [the people of] the Catholic Church feed the poor and house the homeless so somehow these good deeds should dilute our censure of bad acts of nuns and priests and poor decision-making by Catholic leadership. (I'm not saying you directly stated that, bd, but that is my impression of what the position is of those who dislike our criticism of the Catholic Church).

This has been my question in part for years now. At what point, after what type of bad acts and how many of them, after demonstrably poor leadership and questionable decisions, when does a person choose not to support an institution any more. This is not me ranting or being overly critical or unfair or however it seems to you. Rather, it is the Christian part of me mourning over the loss of my ideals, over the pain that churches and their dogma and practices have brought to the world (when I expected the opposite), and sadness that it should be so. And it's not only the Catholic Church that I'm looking at.

One last point - I also agree with the thought expressed that we spend a lot of time here analyzing and criticizing the Mormon Church (justly, in my view) and seem to quite easily put blame for a lot of things on the top leaders, who need to take responsibility for what they preach and what their followers do. Is it somehow different when it comes to other religions? We could easily say that we know Mormon people who are nice, that Mormons do good things, but to exmos who have been hurt by the Mormon Church, does that make up for the ills of Mormonism? No, and many of us do not only judge Mormonism to be at fault and lacking, but other religions too, including the Catholic Church.

And they deserve the scrutiny and censure.

>OMG, Nightengale, I made it clear that Hitler didn't like Jewish kids or any kids other than Aryan and I also made it clear that liking kids and dogs doesn't make up for the Holocaust.He >did a million bad things and one good thing, but the million bad things don't negate the one good thing.

Let's see:

Negative:He killed 6 million people.
Positive: he liked (Aryan) kids and dogs.

I would have to say that the negative far more than negates the positive - many times over.
A very strange analogy.

D. P. Gumby Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >OMG, Nightengale, I made it clear that Hitler
> didn't like Jewish kids or any kids other than
> Aryan and I also made it clear that liking kids
> and dogs doesn't make up for the Holocaust.He >did
> a million bad things and one good thing, but the
> million bad things don't negate the one good
> thing.
>
> Let's see:
>
> Negative:He killed 6 million people.
> Positive: he liked (Aryan) kids and dogs.
>
> I would have to say that the negative far more
> than negates the positive - many times over.
> A very strange analogy.
I clearly said it does not negate it. The point is that most everyone has done at least some tiny good thing. Liking kids and dogs is a good thing even if Hitler liked kids and dogs.It does not become bad just because a bad person felt that way Saving lives by allowing a few people to use condoms is a good thing even if falls short of allowing everyone to use them thus saving more lives. People are making the pope's action evil or cynical simply because they don't like him. Got it?You can dislike him and still give him credit for some small good. it makes sense to me and I can't see why some of you don't get it. At any r ate, I'm going to bed.

Using Hitler as an example to defend ANYBODY seems rather bizarre and grotesque.

Looking at your analogy, here is what I see: a small rock of positivity (liking kids and dogs) sticking out of a sea of evil. If we apply that analogy to Ratzinger, it doesn't lead to a very positive result: a small rock of positivity sticking out of what? If his sea of evil is only 1/1000 the size of Hitler's, he would still be one of the most evil men on Earth. I still think it is a bad analogy - especially given his past.

>I clearly said it does not negate it.

I will have to differ on that. Somehow, I think killing 6 million people is a much bigger deal than liking dogs. I won't cut Hitler any slackfor the holocaust or WWII because he liked children and dogs - or apple strudel for that matter. I won't cut BY any slack form polygamy, blood atonement, or MMM because he designed cities with wide streets. I will judge them on the totality of their actions. I will hold Ratzinger to that standard as well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2010 09:45AM by D. P. Gumby.

You know this whole ridiculous argument started when I said that the pope, whom I do not like or agree with on most things, was right in allowing male prostitutes to use condoms and that this is a good thing. I also said it was about time and that it was not enough. You know, kind of like Hitler liking kids is a good thing but doesn't make up for the bad. If you don't like the analogy that is fine. I do like it and we will have to disagree on that. I got upset when everyone started in on the pope and refused to give him any credit for doing some small thing that will save lives. I do see that as hatred and bigotry, not to mention blindness.

As far as your comments, I made it clear that I was speaking of your original post where your comments sounded like a diatribe. You said you could nt praise the church for anything and that you were brokenhearted that your niece is in Catholic school.That alone sounded pretty extreme At that point you had not clarified what you meant. Later you did which softened your stance. Again, if you don't say what you mean, you cannot expect people to understand you. I am not clairvoyant.You do not have to give personal details but you could have made it clear as you did later that your niece feels like an outsider since everyone else is Catholic and she is not. I understand your position better now although I still do not agree with you on everything. As far as bigotry, I see a lot of it on the board and I don't care for it regardless of what experiences people have had. If I was hurt by a black person or a Jew even severely hurt, it would not justify hating all blacks or all Jews. I am NOT saying you do that, but there are people here who seem to feel that way.It is wrong and there is no excuse for it and I will not say differently



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2010 02:54AM by bona dea.

What the pope didn't say about condoms

http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/Danielle_Bean/2010/11/what_the_pope_didnt_say_about_condoms.html

In an interview with journalist Peter Seewald, Pope Benedict XVI said that condom use may be acceptable under "exceptional circumstances" such as use by a male prostitute in order to prevent the spread of HIV/ AIDS.

Interpretation of the pope's pronouncement has varied. Many insist that the church's teaching, which bans birth control, has not changed, but others see the pope's statement as opening the door to a broader conversation about human sexuality in the modern world.....

What are the implications of Pope Benedict's statement on condoms in terms of AIDS policy, the church's teaching on sex and its view of women?

and which you and Bona dea appear to want to give them a Get Out Of Jail Free card on.

Clue phone: holding one's self up AS a higher standard (something very much like what the RCC and the LDS do on a regular basis) means holding one's self TO the higher standard (something at which they are both dismal failures).

When they want to plainly admit they are failures at that and quit rubbing their lofty higher standards in the faces of others, maybe they'll be able to persuade the clear thinkers in the world to revise our suspicions of their motives. I won't be holding my breath for that day, however: I'm betting that it will never come.

"Get Out Of Jail Free card"

"Clue phone"

"clear thinkers in the world"

"I wouldn't be holding my breath"

"I'm betting..."

Christ, can you shame yourself and the "higher standards" of François-Marie Arouet's literary style any more in one single post?

A book, for you:

http://www.amazon.com/War-Against-Cliche-Reviews-1971-2000/dp/0375727167

Just as soon as you profess that you worship me.

That's the truth.

I've always been partial to Thor.

I'd also like a viking burial when I die, the kind where they push your corpse out to sea an a flammable pyre and then shoot flaming arrows at it

Awesome.
Thor is a way cooler fake god than most.

That's how I want to be "buried" too.

However, because it seems to be illegal, then I'm going to be donated to science.

If I go before my wife, she will do something to the viking funeral effect--just not with my body on it.