So I let my home teacher come over because I like him. He is a great, humble guy and I consider him a friend. He was the first person I went to when I decided that I counldn't do it anymore, so he knows my feelings.

We BS'd for a while and then he gave his "lesson" on service, told anecdotes about how he never feels like he is doing enough, and my wife agreed, said we could always do better, more, think better, etc.

Halfway through I was physically cringing, I do not want my children to think they always have to do more, so I called him on it. I said, isn't that what the atonement is for? Since there is no original sin, that is why Jesus died, for our sins.

He then talked about how you have to be worthy for the atonement, so I asked him again, so it is not available for everyone? He stutter stepped a little and said that we have to earn our atonement.

I don't think he understands traditional Christianity at all.

So we took the conversation away from the kids and I told him I want no part of a god who made a system where children are born into slavery, raped, molested, tortured, and murdered. These children never have the opportunity to "learn the gospel" their testing ground is not a test.

He told me that god has to obey laws that existed before him and that the tortured ones are blessed above all others. He also said if god breaks the rules he ceases to become god.

The way I read it if he has rules he is neither all knowing or all powerful. I have promised a discussion with him about all my problems with the church using church materials. He said he has been through this 3 times already with friends who have left the church.

Well, all I have to say to that is "things that make you go hmmmmmm"

The more I talk to him the more I realize he has some pretty strange beliefs. For instance, he believes that Joseph Smith had sex with all those women to fufill the Abrahamic covenant of massive seed and lineage, even though I do not see how a bunch of bastards make that happen.

I do not know how much longer I am going to be able to go to church to please my wife. I feel like I am giving her false hope.

Joseph Smith didn't do any seed filling. I haven't heard of any JS juniors running around.

Right. Mormons use this as "evidence" that JS didn't have all those wifes... where are the offspring?

Truth is there may be a couple of illegitimates, but in all liklihood JS would never have contemplated supporting 30 kids, and so would have used the good old fashioned method of timing to ensure he didn't seed any of them.

"He then talked about how you have to be worthy for the atonement, so I asked him again, so it is not available for everyone? He stutter stepped a little and said that we have to earn our atonement.

"I don't think he understands traditional Christianity at all."


No Mormons understand traditional Christianity, apparently. While I don't believe in any of it myself, I do understand the good reason why non-Mormons do not think Mormons are Christian, and this, above all the other various reasons, is it. The Love of Christ is unconditional, something that all Mankind receives. Mormons gotta attach caveats to it, like, "Not valid in all states; void where prohibited." In the end, Mormons believe that only those who have received the "second anointing/the Holy Spirit of Promise/have had their calling and election made sure" are eligible for what all the rest of Christendom believes is a free gift. Until one gets his or her second anointing, there is nothing but slavery to Church & Co. What a concept. I'm afraid my own DW has fallen headlong into this.

I love to make this point in my comments to articles about Mormons in the various papers. Naturally, all the Mormons who respond to my comments say I'm wrong. But it's good to rub Mormons' collective not in this one thing that qualifies as the main difference between Mormonism and all other Christians.

Ask him, if that was the case, why Joseph Smith had his own personal abortionist on hand?

He also said if god breaks the rules he ceases to become god.

Others have said this also, that God is God because the spirit world sustains him as such, and that if they withdrew their support that he would cease to be a god.

Therefore, can we safely assume that being 'God' is a calling that can be withdrawn or handed off like a Bishops calling?

Is this any kind of a being to worship that is really no more than any one of us, and who holds the Priesthood thus enabling him to command others like Jehovah and Michael to create our earth for him?

And if it is as JSjr said at the end of his career that it was for us to learn to be gods ourselves, then what did this man do besides being super obedient to divine law to earn him a place as the god assigned to our world? As McConkie and others have said, there are many gods, but this one is the only one we worship. So how do we even know we got a good one, like Bishops who range from compassionate and kind to the arrogant and duty-bound?

A perfect example of how many claim they-Mormons-are not Christian....earn your way to heaven???? WE all fall short of the glory of God. But mormons say - NO...we will be Gods.

Traditional Christianity also places conditions on "salvation".

According to traditional, orthodox Christianity, Christ's atonement for sin is universal as far as the resurrection goes. IOW, all mankind will be resurrected thanks to the atonement. No one has to "earn" Christ's atonement. To this, Moism agrees.

But traditional Christianity also teaches that to inherit eternal heaven (which they term "salvation"), a person has to accept Jesus as his personal savior, or perform some other priesthood-based ritual, like the holy rites of the Catholic church. It teaches that there will be a final judgment, wherein those who failed to do the required minimums will be cast down to hell.

Moism teaches something very similar, altho they call salvation, "exaltation". Moism may add a lot more "works" to be done in order to inherit heaven ('exaltation"), but all the Christians and Mos teach that some work must be done to inherit heaven.

OP, your HT should have said, in Mospeak, that church members have to earn their exaltation, not their atonement.

If my words in this post are accurate, then the Christian god, in any church tradition, is not an unconditional love-giver.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2012 07:59PM by hello.

In Christianity, what happens to the person who didn't know about christ, so couldn't accept him as savior?

Lillium, I don't know all the various doctrines taught in the myriad sects of Christianity, but some groups actually teach that those who never heard the gospel are cast to hell in the judgment. They failed to perform the works of faith and belief, as described in the NT, so out they go.

DW has ancestors who came out of Mennonism, and who believed this doctrine about the lost heathen. They cared so much about these people, that they joined the Nazarene church so they could be sent on missions to the heathen, so that they could save them from hell. Her mom grew up in China because of this work.

DW's family history in world missionary work has been one of the biggest motivators for her in doing endless genealogy and temple work.

a god

Ozcrone, is your post directed at mine?

Yes, ozcrone, that is true. I refer to exaltation as Mo heaven, because that degree of heaven is the only one that Mos really care about and are shooting for.

Yes, you can inherit the first degree of heaven, and be an angel or servant to others. I suppose you can be in the second degree, which I have never heard defined. But the third degree is the one Mos want.

Whichever degree of heaven, Mos believe you have to earn your place there.