I knew very little about this Jewish group until I saw this program. I was mesmerized by the comments of the women in particular and struck by the same kind of spiritual importance and the symbolism placed on their rituals and customs as I experienced Mormonism. One in particular that I recall, had to do with the purity of water for the Mikvah, for instance.
The other had to do with the separation of the men and women in many of the rituals.

I was also impressed by how Oprah brought it all together with her comments about how we are all more alike than different.

One of the comments had to do with living in the world but not being impacted by it, similar to a saying in Mormonism: in the world but not of the world, and how this is a notion that is ancient.

While others may mock and scoff and make fun,abuse, hate, these people have been living their heritage and beliefs for centuries with complete adherence to their rituals and customs (which are in the hundreds, I think.)

While I don't know any Hasidic Jews, I would never mock, or make fun of their rituals and customs as if they were dumb, or stupid, or ignorant, or a fraud, or liars, unacceptable in some way.They live a God centered, home centered life that is amazing in this day and age, in my view.

Seeing this program reminded me, again to show the same kind of acceptance and honor of all religions and their rituals and customs as important to other human beings. The words of Joseph Campbell rang in my mind ...again...

‎"Living with these things all the time, I can see how there are certain universal patterns for these manifestations. A shaman among the Navajo or in the Congo will be saying things which sound so much like, say, Nicholas Cusanus or Thomas Aquinas, or C. G. Jung, that one just has to realize that these ranges of experiences are common to the human race. There are some people who close themselves away from them, some people who open themselves to them ..."

--Joseph Campbell, “Living Myths: A Conversation with Joseph Campbell,” Parabola, Volume I Issue 2 (Myth and the Quest for Meaning), Spring 1976, p. 70

What a beautiful world it is when we show unconditional love to everyone, forgive everyone everything, and bask in that indescribable peace of mind and appreciation and gratitude of all of life.

Joseph Campbell is referring to the "Archetype" of the reverence of God and the idea of the collective unconscious is indeed so much bigger than we are. Religion is man-made and I do not believe that the various religions of the world need to be honored by the masses. Maybe respected for the fact that they serve a certain segment of society to gain knowledge of "God". I have a hard time buying into ALL religion because so much of it is based on non-Truth, lies and manipulation of the people.

from a Hassidic (sp?) Jewish group--did you read the reviews on that. She was married off to an older guy when she was quite young. She'd never heard anything about sex and was in for a surprise.

My boyfriend is converted Jew--but reformed.

Have your heard about burrowing to Jerusalem when the Messiah comes no matter where you are buried?

AND even his children--now there is a divorce--don't treat him as Jewish since he is ONLY a convert. They spend all the holidays with their mother.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2012 12:59PM by cl2.

Other than reading Chaim Potok (and all of his novels are excellent, most including inside looks at hasidic culture - one book has an army chaplain whose assistant is a mormon, but I seriously digress)

So where was I - right - their clothes. They hail from the early 1900s I think - the time of one of their more famous rabbis. The side curls for men may go back longer. I believe the women shave their heads and wear wigs - I forget why - and that may be a different sect from the hasidim.

In this group, on this show, the women wear wigs, or in some other cases, hair coverings. It's part of their modesty rules/laws, which include covering their body and not touching the opposite sex in public. This was a complete departure from what I see in the typical American Culture.

There are dozens of different varieties of Jewish believers. This group is probably one of the most orthodox and strict in how they observe the traditions and rituals.

It's a World View that is very specific. It's the reasons for them that I find most fascinating - the dedication to the spiritual aspect of their traditions. I have found a similar level of dedication and spiritual depth in the rituals and customs in Mormonism with many of the members, when I lived it.
It was the similar spiritual understanding that surprised me. Fascinating!

Why should we respect the Hassidim as being their own culture and religion but not respect the FLDS?

baura Wrote:
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> Why should we respect the Hassidim as being their
> own culture and religion but not respect the FLDS?


I respect anyone's right to live their religious beliefs as they choose. (Criminal cases exempt, of course).

I don't have any notion that I have any power to tell anyone else how to live their lives, what belief system to believe in, or categorize them as right and wrong. They are a choice that is honored and accepted by our constitution.

Believe whatever you want,(the collective: YOU), however you want. It doesn't have any impact on me, unless I let it.

I believe it's best to leave other people's religious beliefs up to them, and mind my own business ! :-)

We can't change other people anyhow. They might make changes if they decide they want to, if it's expedient, or they are pressured in some way, but I'm not going to bother anyone about their religious beliefs and that includes Mormonism if that is their choice.

I'll treat others the way I want to be treated. Usually, that means, leave them alone. But, hey, that's just me! :-)

I don't have any power over other people's religious choices anyhow. There are thousands of religious beliefs that are always going to provide the kind of beliefs and support other human beings desire. I find them fascinating!

Fascinating is not a word I would use to describe orthodox religions - dogmatic, cultish, childish (at a soul level), rigid, etc. These are words that would describe a bit more appropriately!

Hey SuzieQ!
Wouldnt I be minding my own business if I made it my business to mind the business of others?? LOL!! Im just being silly!!

and who's been exposed to Chasidism during my life, I can tell you that most of the Chasidic groups out there are rather insular (like the Satmars). Groups like Chabad (aka Lubavitcher) are more out there because they see part of their mission in life to get Jews to become more like them (sort of like what the Mormons do by trying to get people to apostatize from their faith and become Mormon).

Back when I was in college, Chabad had its "mitzvah tank" on campus where it would try to engage male Jewish students to put on tefillin (phylacteries) and as a response to all the anti-Jewish rhetoric that was going on (I was in college during the "Zionism=racism" controversy), even moreso than Hillel.

Also, Chabad isn't picky when it goes out to help people. One person helped by Chabad was Jon Voight when he was going through an extremely rough patch. He hasn't become Jewish, but he still supports the organization.

When my dad lost a member of his family, he went for the year (according to Jewish tradition) every morning to religious services where he was living. Turns out the only place that had morning services every day was the local Chabad center. He was appreciative of the fact there was a daily minyan so he could say the prayer for the dead (the Kaddish).

I'm guessing my experience with Chasidic families and groups is different than most because I'm Jewish. The one thing I do want to impress upon you is that yes, there are those who are as insular as FLDS, but there are those who are out there who are doing a lot of good for everyone, regardless of faith or upbringing, etc.

I can respect their beliefs and customs, but I'd never choose to live it. Way too pedantic and restrictive for me.

My personal "God-view" is a creator who is pragmatic and liberating.

Outcast Wrote:
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> I can respect their beliefs and customs, but I'd
> never choose to live it. Way too pedantic and
> restrictive for me.
>
> My personal "God-view" is a creator who is
> pragmatic and liberating.


I take a similar position. It's fascinating, and a bit mind boggling that people want to live that kind of very restrictive life. Even Mormonism with it's multitude of rules and unwritten rules, didn't compare, in my experience. But, I suppose if it's your religious heritage, it comes more naturally to you.

If someone's culture, beliefs, rituals were demonstrably damaging, then I would feel no remorse in pointing it out, and would ignore people if they told me I was being hateful or intolerant. Just because these people have developed a deep sense of meaning in their actions doesn't mean that they aren't screwing themselves up, and just because they are presenting themselves as happy and at peace doesn't mean that's necessarily the whole story.

In the absence of reason to believe that this religion is damaging, I am more than happy to speak well of them. I am not familiar with this particular case, so you could be right. As for me, I value progress and learning over adherence to tradition, and admire people who live accordingly. But, those are my own personal values.

The idea that we need to honor other religious beliefs and respect the rights of others to worship as they please is in itself a sort of religious belief. Telling other people they should follow the tenets of your belief system is the equivalent of telling people what to believe and how to act.

I will continue to respect and honor all people's religious beliefs as a personal RIGHTS. It's a civil right, which I'm passionate about.

It in no way requires anyone else to accept my position.
That's just silly to think it does.
We don't have to agree.

Besides, there is so much hatred, anger, and rage about other people's beliefs, it's turned into what I have observed, far too many times, as the Age of Rage these days. There is some kind of entitlement some think is their right to rip everyone apart because they don't like or are angry with what they believe. I find that very odd.
"He who angers you conquers you."
Elizabeth Kenny


I find the Hasidic family values as expressed in the program to be very similar, on some level, to the values of Mormons, and hundreds of other religious groups.

We're not so different after all. Especially when we treat people with kindness and give them unconditional love, which is what we want!

What the hell is respectful about Mormons proselytizing their religion? Going all over the world believing that others need to be Mormons is disrespectful.

I don't respect that.

Why would I respect Mormon beliefs? I would have lost all self-respect if I'd have remained Mormon, that's why I got out.

Proselytizing one's religion is disrespectful.

Just my MOO

I respect RIGHTS. I don't care what people believe -- religiously, for instance.

Usually, it's none of my business anyhow. It's their life, not mine anyhow.

I want my RIGHTS respected and honored, so I will do the same for others. Simple as that.

So I will respect and honor all of them as right of human beings throughout history to their beliefs,with no anger, resentment, hatred, etc. toward anyone.

RIGHTS are too precious to denigrate, or hate, or be filled with anger, etc. in my view.

So I'll respect and honor the right of the Hasidic Jews to practice their religion (which I have learned a lot more about just recently), just as I wanted mine respected and honored when I was an LDS believer, for instance.

I believe strongly in the power of building bridges with our fellow human beings by being respectful and understanding how similar we are in so many ways.

Oh, and I don't need anyone's approval! :-) But I do know what works when it comes to keeping long time relationships which I want in my life.

Unconditional love, forgiving everyone everything, acceptance and respect of other people's RIGHTS goes a long way in building and sustaining long time relationships that are based on love.

That's just how I roll. :-)

Would you respect Jim Jones or Charles Manson? They were both leaders in their respective "religions" and caused a lot of death and destruction. I understand what you're saying - loving everyone unconditionally, without judgment and accepting others for what and how they believe. The problem is, there are faiths, people, beliefs, religions, etc. out there that are not loving, caring, nonjudgmental and such that we need to be most vigilant of. Otherwise, we may fall prey to unwanted problems - individually and collectively :-)

... incredibly stupid s**t, I reserve the right to speak out and point out just how incredibly stupid any given incredibly stupid s**t actually is.

Particularly when that incredibly stupid s**t effects or trounces on the rights of others.

Take, say, Prop H8 for example.

Ignorant a** religious zealots leaned on their faith in and understanding of several no-show, non-existent sky-daddies to form a voting bloc that insured the oppressive measure's temporary success. Some of these dip-s**ts even went so far as to gamble away their kid's futures by donating hundreds of thousands of dollars in savings to the cause because their phony leaders who claim to speak for whatever phony god told them to do so.

Do I have to respect that? Not in a million years! As a matter of fact, the recent ruling on the matter still has me laughing my a** off at those idiots and their stupidity. Like comedian Ron White says, "You can fix a lot of things, but you can't fix stupid!"

Can't help but laugh at stupid neither!

Don't know what this continual plea for tolerance toward people who say and do incredibly stupid s**t is all about, but here's a simply cure. If they would just quit saying and doing incredibly stupid s**t, folks wouldn't ridicule them for saying and doing incredibly stupid s**t.

Just goes to show that even the simplest solutions don't register in the simple mind.

Timothy

My experience interacting with Jews is that they have many virtues that I esteem. However orthodox Judaism (like the brand Hasidic Jews practice) I put in the same category as JWs, Scientologists, and the FLDS. Same sh!t, different day. No thanks. They literally have the same characteristics as the other cults, the worse of which is the ostracizing of those that dare disobey.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2012 04:16PM by mrtranquility.

She left the community and came to CA for college.

2nd year, she went home and there were long conversations on what she needed and could live with. She agreed to marry a rabinical student. A contract was made out regarding how many times they were to have sex, etc. She came back and got her stuff and moved back into the community. Never heard from her again.

She missed her family, missed hanging out with the women, etc.

One of the things I did like was that it was the responsibility of the husband to give his wife an orgasm on Friday evening (if she was available) in order that she could sing and be happy on the Sabbath. That way the whole household would be happy.

"the responsibility of the husband to give his wife an orgasm on Friday evening"

hope they both perform well under pressure...

I lived alongside the ultra-Orthodox in NYC and I felt that they made good neighbors. They maintained safe neighborhoods and were tolerant of gentiles living on the outskirts of their communities.

My understanding is that the women are required to have their heads covered. Some choose to wear hats or scarves and some choose to wear wigs. The wigs can be quite elaborate and an ultra-Orthodox woman might have a wardrobe of wigs. Some more moderate Jewish people can pick out the wigs right away. The hats are often quite attractive and ultra-Orthodox women can present a very dignified, stylish appearance (unlike the men who often appear rather dumpy because their coats are two sizes too big.)

I heard that due to the necessity of separating dairy products from meat products (forgive me, it's been a long time so I may be a bit fuzzy on this,) Orthodox families have two different sets of dinnerware or china, and sometimes two ovens in their houses.

I remember seeing a Kosher Chinese restaurant in Brooklyn.

A Conservative Jewish friend of mine entertained Lubavitcher friends in her home.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I heard that due to the necessity of separating dairy products from meat products (forgive me, it's been a long time so I may be a bit fuzzy on this,) Orthodox families have two different sets of dinnerware or china, and sometimes two ovens in their houses.
>

You have that partially correct, summer. Most Orthodox families will actually have *eight* sets of dinnerware and plates:

everyday meat and dairy
special occasion meat and dairy
Passover-only everyday meat and dairy
Passover-only special occasion meat and dairy

> I remember seeing a Kosher Chinese restaurant in Brooklyn.
>

That's nothing! When I was stationed in the Bronx back in 1982-84 (NAVY), there were at least 2 kosher Chinese takeout places near where I lived (173rd St. and Jewel Ave. in Flushing). On the radio, I'd listen to this one station which would advertise for "Moshe Peking" and "Shalom Japan" in Manhattan. Both glatt kosher. Granted, the prices were higher, but out of respect to my landlord (modern Orthodox Jewish family), I'd eat glatt kosher in the basement apartment I rented when I wanted Chinese.

There's a lot of emotional abuse and exposure of sexual abuse in the Hasidic community recently. It has all the sicknesses that any culture has where connection to the modern world is repressed and sanctioned.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99913807

The people Oprah interviewed are very much the apologists, the most articulate and best prepared. Men divorce women who are infertile as a common practice in their community.

Okay this is really bad...
I grew up in Miami Beach during a time when there were many Hasidic Jews (many Yeshivas and synagogues.) My best friend was the regular babysitter for the Hasidic family next door. (The children spoke the very beautiful Hebrew...) They had certain rules about places we could not touch in the kitchen (because of Kosher rules). You couldn't mix milk and meat or allow them to be on the same plate, etc.

We were goyim (gentiles) to them that's why we couldn't touch certain places in their house. My friend and I babysat together one night, and the first thing we gentiles did was...touch every place they said not to touch and then take the milk and make it touch the meat, etc.

OK, we made a mockery and that was bad but we were 14 year old gentiles!!!

The wife had a separate bedroom for her time of the month. (2 weeks of the month, actually.)

There's a really beautiful movie starring Isabella Rosellini called Left Luggage about a Hasidic family in Europe in Belgium. It will break your heart if you really are interested in understanding them a little more.

But getting back to our 14 year old mentality, I just remember my sister and I watching the men walking the streets to and from synogogue on Saturdays in those long beards and heavy dark coats and hats in the Miami Beach humidity and heat. Yes, they wear those coats in Miami Beach in the summer! It's enough to make you pass out from heat stroke just watching. They're not allowed to turn on lights or drive cars on the sabbath so they walked and lit candles at home. The outfits are frozen in time to what they wore in cold Poland in the early 19th century or even earlier.

Chaim Potok's novels are really powerful depictions of the pain of growing up within that community. The Chosen is the best one. I feel very sorry for them for the same reasons I feel sorry for any religious group living a restricted life believing it keeps them close to God.

As a closeted non-believing Orthodox Jew who grew up semi-hassidic, I would caution that the Oprah interview was extremely apologetic and white-washed. While there are some admirable aspects to Orthodox Judaism, my experience as a whole is that it's a cult that is tremendously stifling to the human spirit - for both men and women, and that deep down most OJ's do it not because they enjoy the religion, but rather because they are brainwashed to believe it is the Truth. They are also brainwashed into believing it's the best life that there is, in that secular people spend their life taking drugs and cheating on their spouses.

Hundred's of year's of adherence to their ritual's and custom's simply means bringing up and brainwashing their children.
That's why the need for Recovery Boards!

I have an assortment of Jewish relatives. My mom's parents were Jews who converted to Christianity. It was a family scandal, and while most of their relatives got over it, the more orthodox ones never did. I have only had one or two interactions with my cousins who live in NYC.

It was horribly awkward, and they made it very clear that they did not like us. The women were fairly friendly, but the male relatives were smug, sanctimonious assholes. They all live in a neighborhood in Brooklyn that has tons of Hasidic Jews, so they have a fairly insular community. In retrospect it reminds me a LOT of some communities in Utah. Only Jewish culture is actually interesting...

I've never had a bad experience with mainstream Jewish folk. But my limited interaction with Hasidics has not been positive. I don't want to say that's the norm though, because it might not be.

Are there cliques, 'more righteous' 'less than' members like in the mormon churches or are they actually living their religion and are kind and accepting of new members etc.

Is it the mormon church calling hierarchy at church that pegs women into those 'more' and 'less' righteous, or does that kind of attitude also infiltrate the hasidic?

If it does, what do the hasidic women on the fringe think? Are they still happy being hasidic or are they also on prozac?

It seemed, from the show, a lovely way to live. Kind of what i was looking for by being a mormon: community. But for the most part it was a fake community. Not planning to convert to judaism, just wondering if it is really as wonderful as Oprah show made it sound.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2012 12:28PM by karin.

Wow. Surely others from the eastern US have some experience with them. I lived in Manhattan (part of NYC) for 4-1/2 years, and worked in the Chelsea district, right next door to a Hasidim-owned camera shop. I had a photographer boyfriend who would ask me from time to time to pick up supplies for him, and it was always a bit of an "experience" to go in there. The men do everything they can to avoid looking at women. We're dirty, an evil influence. I, of course, had fun trying to trick them into looking at me! Such blatant sexism is reprehensible. It's downright rude. After a few times of this, I told him he needed to get his own stuff, I didn't like the way it felt to go into that place.

Any group that practices such repressive sexism doesn't get a free pass. Part of their daily prayers is thanking god he didn't make them women!

They have the right to believe whatever, but I don't have to respect the beliefs. They sure as hell don't respect me or mine.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2012 01:11PM by serena.

My observation of this interview is that the women are content and wouldn't likely use meds as they don't have depression as a rule. That would be too "extreme". (I don't recall that they touched on that subject, but they were asked about someone being "different" as in gay, which shut them down completely. They just sat in shock and didn't know how to answer.

I suppose it's as wonderful as they want it to be. It's their heritage, their culture, their religion and it's been that way for a very long time.
I'm in awe of how they can continue this kind of family life with their religious beliefs and customs and traditions. It's really quite amazing, in my view.

For those that still don't GET IT: I am passionate about RIGHTS--- the RIGHT of anyone to believe in their religious beliefs. Those beliefs don't require my acceptance, or agreement, but the RIGHTS do, in my view.

I accept and respect and honor the RIGHT of all religious beliefs.I couldn't do otherwise. The world would be filled with peace if everyone else accepted other people's religious RIGHTS also. But they don't and they still kill one another at times, because they don't agree.

You wrote:

"I accept and respect and honor the RIGHT of all religious beliefs"

????????

What you supposedly "respect" is the individual "right" to believe whatever a given individual wishes to believe. No one on this board is arguing that which is something you don't get.

What you propose is that a given individual has the "right" to freely express his or her beliefs without question, challenge, debate or ridicule. That is not a "right" and never has been which is something else you don't get.

Kudos to you for respecting everyone's right to express his or her beliefs no matter how sane or whacky. Jeers to you for wanting to silence those who do not agree with the whacked-out beliefs of religious nut-jobs.

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2012 01:59PM by Timothy.

to respect the rights of one's fellow citizens to believe anything they want and to practice that religion as they see fit without having to necessarily respect said beliefs.

I will never understand why talking about religious ideas engenders this kind of reaction in some people. Even when those discussions are *gasp* critical of someone else's beliefs!!

None of us has the right to go through life without being offended.

And insofar as treating others the way I would like to be treated goes: what if I like having my ideas and beliefs challenged? Am I not then treating others as I would like to be treated by challenging their beliefs?

Susie: Your topic was: did we watch oprah's show, NOT do hasidic jews have the right to live that way. Of course they have that right, and as long as they aren't hurting their kids they can live and dress any way they want. :)

So most of us, having been born with curious minds, want to know more- i want to know if the community of women they describe is real or as fake as a mormon community. I guess that means i really wanted a community to belong to. What do they think of their lives being run by their period cycles? I don't want the whole world (community) knowing when my period is or isn't. What if you're irregular? Do they make the teen girls follow the same rule of not touching their dad/ older brothers during their period? Do teens have to go to the ritual bath too?

Now that oprah's opened the door to these customs, inquiring minds want more. We also hope that their kids are as happy as oprah's show made them seem.

Yes, that was my topic, which was expanded as others made comments to me that showed they didn't understand my position, or had twisted it to mean something else I did not say.

If you want to know more about this particular sect, there is a lot of info on line.

I was an LDS woman for decades. I was not, nor did I ever have any experience in any "fake" community. Quite the contrary. I found Mormons as dedicated and sincere as these Hasidic Jews in many instances. Some, not so much! :-)

I am not going to make a judgment about the beliefs. They don't apply to me, but if others wish to follow these customs and traditions that have a strong spiritual religious underpinning,for them, it's fine with me. I understand the reasoning.

I believe in the importance of taking your power back and owning it. To me that means that I don't give anyone the power to .... offend me, for instance. Not possible. Besides, I have more important things to be concerned about than what someone else thinks about me, for instance. If I have concerns about something and I have the power to DO something about it, I will take action.

This is an important principle that I have found to be one of the best ways to live with peace of mind: Don't take anything personally. (I often quote from Don Miquel Ruiz The Four Agreements). That too is about owning your own power.

When we leave the LDS CHurch, for instance, one of the things that becomes obvious, at least it has been to me, is that we recognize a need to take our power back and own it.

The Hasidic Jews are worldwide. A small group of them was featured on Oprah's program.
I agree with Oprah on this subject: (paraphrased) the more we learn about others the more we find we are alike.

I continue that understanding to all of the LDS folks I know and love and those that are long time friends. We are more alike than different and everyone has a right to unconditional love.:-)

"others made comments to me that showed they didn't understand my position"

lord knows it's not that people here don't understand your position... anyone that's been here for at least a month knows the story... rights... tribe... god myth... etc, etc, etc.

it's simple: not everyone agrees with your position


honest question: if you are so passionate about "RIGHTS" why aren't you passionate about the right to speak critically about certain religious beliefs?