This was posted in the Provo Craigslist rant and rave section on Sept. 5th. Even if, as a non-mo, you don't hear anything, you will certainly get nasty looks or disapproving glances.

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To the Mormon woman who was nasty to me for wearing a sleeveless top:


I was visiting Utah because my husband, who is a professor at a university at another state, had a conference at BYU. We brought our 2 year-old son with us and thought this would be a fun vacation. Vacationing in Utah was anything but fun for myself or my family. My husband and I were shocked at the level of judgment and just all around nastiness we encountered from the Mormons of the Provo area.

Even though we put up with countless rude words during our few days here and overall bizare behavior, the woman eating dinner with her overweight husband at the Lindon Wallaby's on Friday evening took the cake. She had ivory colored polyester pants hiked up high on her waist, with a skinny belt and a top tucked in. She had brown straight hair just past her chin, with glasses. She dressed like she was 60, even though I think she may have been in her twenties or early thirties. I'm in my early thirties and dress appropriately. I'm modest. I just am not Mormon and do not hold the same belief system as Mormons. I personally believe that it matters more how kind we are to our fellow man, than what kind of underwear others have on, but I digress. My top was very tasteful. It was well made. While it was sleeveless (it was HOT outside!!!!), it was extremely modest. It came nearly to my shoulders and while it had a scoop neck, it came up pretty high for a scoop neck. It was long, to my hips, but was loose, not form fitting. I am in shape and take excellent care of myself, but always dress modestly. It does NOT make me a slut because I take good care of my body.

This pious woman turned around in her chair and wouldn't stop staring at me while I was getting my son out of the high chair. Her husband and she were both staring at me and talking to each other loudly enough for me to hear. Apparantly, they were offended at what I'm wearing and that caused them to QUESTION WHAT KIND OF MOM I AM!! Because I had a sleeveless, modest top on! I am an excellent mother. My son and I had a very lovely dinner and were laughing with each other and working on his words (he just turned two) during our meal. Our time and meal were ruined by this couple. They made me feel horrible about myself and I have no idea why, as I am usually a confident person, but the Mormons have turned making others feel like a piece of trash into an art form. That is how I have felt the whole time I have been here to Utah. Like trash.

I have been watching those "I'm a Mormon" ads where I am from and was curious to find out what Mormons are like IRL. As a fellow Christian, I expected them to act the same way Christians act in my congregation--with respect and kindness towards each other. At the very least, they should be grateful others are spending their hard earned dollars traveling in their state.

I plan on telling everyone I know exactly what the Mormons in Utah are like. They are nothing like those actors in the 'I'm a Mormon' commercials. I plan on spreading the word. I don't know what you people's problem is. I don't know if you judged me because you figured I was a Mormon who took the same vows you took to not wear sleevless clothing or what. It is legal to wear sleevless tops with capris in this state, right? Because you guys made me feel like a worthless piece of white trash, even though I have a PhD and am an excellent mother. I even quit work until my son is in preschool so that I could be a SAHM and mother him the best that I see fit. What does the clothing I choose to wear (it was modest) have to do with my mother capabilites? Why be so nasty to someone because of a modest sleeveless, tasteful top? It was even loose fitting. Why was that necessary? How is this a sign of someone's character? I feel that it is a better sign of someone's character that they turn and stare at someone's chest area and make nasty comments, while speculating about the stranger's underwear. As a woman who was alone with a small child, I felt very uneasy about this rude intrusion, all while I was just trying to have a nice meal with my son. :-(

I guess it made it all make more sense why we were treated so horribly by everyone the whole time we were here. It was hot, so I had also worn shorts with a T-shirt the day before. I have never in my life been given so many dirty looks or made to feel so horribly about myself. I am a woman with good self-esteem and am very kind to people I meet, so normally have the exact opposite experience as I did in Utah. You guys can have your state and your stupid religion that makes people act like jerks. Good riddance!!!! I have a friend who was looking into your church and I already told her all about you people. She has called the missionaries to tell them, "no more". Thank goodness she will remain the kind, loving, Christlike person she already is. The world could definitely do with one less Mormon.

Please remember that outside of Utah, there is a whole world that takes place. In this world, people are good and are just trying to live their lives with their families. You have not cornered the market on religion or family values--by any stretch of the imagination. There are people out there who do not dress like pilgrims, but who are still great loving people and parents. I don't even drink alcohol, so thought I would fit in fine, but I guess I forgot that to dress like a nun in 90 degree weather, so I am judged as evil white trash. You complain that the rest of the world persecutes you, but I think you have a perseuction complex. Maybe if you weren't so nasty and judgmental to people, they would be nice back to you. It's worth a try. What do you say? Wanna trade some of your ugly clothing for a smile or some good old Christian charity?


Signed,
Grateful to be away from the Mormons

In my (happily limited) experience of Utah Morg, they expect *everyone in the entire state* to be a member. therefore they feel they have the right to Judge and gossip about random strangers as if they were sitting across the aisle from them, in the chapel.

Thanks for that post. I totally understand that feeling of being made to feel "horrible" about yourself for no apparent reason. Passive aggressive atmospheres bring out the WORST people who have nothing better to do than cast dispersions and judgments on others. What you wear has nothing to do with who you are. Some Mormons will always think otherwise. Long time members of the church still get this treatment from members in their own wards and stakes who deem themselves as the holy elite or Mormon artistocracy (whatever that means). I believe your impressions are accurate.

Or at least it sounds exactly like her. Sorry you had such a bad experience. The only way to really enjoy a trip to Utah is to enjoy the mountains, places like Park City or Moab, and try to stay away from places where more than two mormons would congregate.

I fear my husband's brainwashed daughters will behave in exactly the same way as they become adults. Wouldn't it be so cool if someone confronted these clods for their rudeness?

normarae Wrote:
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> and try to stay away from places where more than two mormons would congregate.


because there, would also be the Lard =)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2010 09:13AM by Nick Humphrey.

Nick Humphrey Wrote:
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> normarae Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > and try to stay away from places where more than
> two mormons would congregate.
>
>
> because there, would also be the Lard =)

Sounds like that joke about taking only one mormon fishing and having all the beer gone.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2010 09:43AM by Now a Gentile.

I'm glad this lady isn't just going to let it go, and has decided to call them on their behaviour. They messed with the wrong person. hehe

I would have done three things.

1. Confront the rude women directly and immediately. I would call her out, politely and quietly, but I would definitely have let her know how horribly rude she was being.

2. Complain to restaurant management. Obviously, they cannot control the behavior of other customers, but they should be aware of the reasons the dining experience sucked. I might reserve this step only in the event that an employee mistreated you.

3. Write a letter to the SLC newspaper and maybe even the Deseret News. ALL mormons should be made aware of how they come off to visitors to their state.

As one of my workmates once said, "Mormons are their own worst enemies." So true. Now they've "won" you over, too, I see. Good job. Keep up that missionary work. In a sort of perverse way, I'm glad you had the experience. now you know.

So sorry for your treatment. It is the way most are.

NEXt time, stare back and ask "Do we know each other?"

Because this is how they act. Mormons just can't get it through their heads that the reason they are so unpopular is because they behave so offensively and come across so phony. No, it has to be Satan's influence, or the wicked world who feels shamed by Mormon goodness or persecution or.... fill in the blank. They give 10 percent of their money in order to be told they are better than everyone else so at least in that area, they are getting their moneys worth.

What cracks me up is before I moved to Utah in the 90s EVERYONE, Mormons and non-LDS alike told me not to move to Utah because the members there have aren't very nice and have very low standards. The fact that even your own church members in other states don't respect you is very telling about what is really going on in the Utah/Idaho church.

It seems some people just can't refrain from judging others, or at least keeping it to themselves if they do. It is not limited to Mormons unfortunately.

I am 43 and some months ago I saw a pair if black and tan Converse high tops (with cross laced black and white laces) on sale and bought them on a whim. I call them my "I'm not too old for this shit" shoes. Silly I know but...

Anyway, some time later I'm out eating dinner with the family at a local salad bar buffet and I notice an older couple staring at me (or should I say at my shoes) and making comments to themselves.

As I approached with plate in hand on the way back to my table I overheard them loudly comment to the affect that the shoes were obviously a pathetic form of rebellion against some percieved notion of authority. They obviously found my choice of footwear distasteful and were not afraid to let me know.

I gave them a smirk as I passed and made my own judgement of them. That they were effete liberal snobs, listened to NPR regularly and that one of them was a professor of some soft science perhaps psychology.

This incident reminded me that we are all prone to judging others, some more then others, and that I need to always be sure and accept others for who they are. Those that cannot do the same? Fuck'em, they are not worth the time.

Why on earth would you conclude they were liberals? In my experience, it's conservatives who insist on one "acting one's age".

Uncle Max Wrote:
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> Why on earth would you conclude they were
> liberals? In my experience, it's conservatives who
> insist on one "acting one's age".


I wonder if that conclusion was based on what they were saying?

Uncle Max Wrote:
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> Why on earth would you conclude they were
> liberals? In my experience, it's conservatives who
> insist on one "acting one's age".


It was a snap judgement based on how they were dressed and the way they worded it. As with all superficial judgements it clearly could have been wrong.

I will say though that it has been my observation that some liberals can be very high minded and look down their noses at those they disapprove of.

Oh and for the record, I consider myself to be a liberal.

I kind of enjoy getting dirty looks from women when I'm in Utah. I dress fairly modestly myself but from the looks I get I must be surely be Jezabel herself.

I think the Bountiful temple must have been closed, because there were no cars in the parking lot--zero. It is a huge parking lot, and I stopped my car, without pulling in between any diagonal parking lines. It was the first time I had seen the Bountiful temple and the view.

I was wavering in the faith, and looking for a sign--and I got one--a fat third finger!

A woman in a mini van came up behind me, and started honking at me. My motor was turned off, so I put my arm out the open window, and waved for her to pass me. Remember, she had the entire empty parking lot to drive on. She honked again. I ignored her. She revved up the motor, leaned on the horn, and gave me the finger as she passed me!

I thought of this as a metaphor, that Mormons must follow the lines exactly, even in a vacant lot, and even at the expense of alienating someone else.

Mormons don't have the concept of GOING AROUND someone. They will not go out of their way. They will not accommodate others. They know only to climb over or plow through.

Narrow is the path.

forestpal Wrote:
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> Mormons don't have the concept of GOING AROUND
> someone. They will not go out of their way. They
> will not accommodate others. They know only to
> climb over or plow through.
>
> Narrow is the path.


Oh, what a great analogy.

This is a beautiful thread. Can we save it? Freakin' amazing experience. A sign from above, no doubt.

Yes, I agree. This should be saved even though the original letter appeared on Craig's List, because its just such a classic Mormon mistake with predictable results of alienating non-LDS people.

I have a lot of fun when I get those judgemental stares from those pious fools...It only encourages the natural rebellious streak I have. I wear low cut tops frequently and it cracks me up some jerk decides to get huffy. The tattoos seem to scare people off from getting to close to me anyway :)

However, if I had been in that mother's position, they would have gotten an earful from me with a hearty middle finger.

For starters, she made a bunch of snarky comments about the fashion sense of the woman. What does that have to do with anything? Would the woman's rudeness have been OK if she just dressed better?

Or was the writer making the point that this woman was too low class to look her nose down at the writer? If so, then the writer is guilty of exactly what she was complaining about. I believe the technical term for that is "hypocrisy".

The couple made her feel like trash? She thought they were clueless rubes, yet they "made" her feel like trash? They didn't make her feel like anything. She has some responsibility for her feelings. Her claim is just a variation on the Mormon guilt trip - "I'm miserable because you left the Church". Please.

Is it possible that the OP was being stared at for some other reason? I live in Utah and wear shorts and sleeveless tops all the time, so do plenty of other people, and have never felt funny about it or been stared at. I realize Provo is its own little world, but still. If the OP was on the BYU campus, she was in violation of their rather stupid dress code which might account for the looks.While I don't agree with the dress code, it is their right to have one and I will follow it while on BYU property if I am there for some reason. Usually I avoid the place.I'm thinking this is a bit exaggerated too, even for Provo. If I am wrong, I apologize.

I saw this woman's post on Craigslist in the rant & rave section.

No, I do not believe this story has been exaggerated. Provo has nasty, rude, judgmental people. I live in Utah County. I see it. I've experienced it.

Last night I posted about neighbors who avoid us, because we are no longer LDS. (at least I'm certain that is the reason because nothing else has occurred)

Well, I don't live in Provo, but I do have a hard time believing that sleeveless tops are so rare, even in Provo, that you get stared at just for wearing one to a restaurant.On campus might be different since it is against the rules I have no doubts that ex Mormons can be shunned or that one person might stare at you, but it sounds like this poster is saying that it happened over and over. Sorry, but I may not live in Provo, but I have been there and have seen a number of sleeveless tops there. Provo isn't completely Mormon. There are inactives and members of plenty of other churches there. I agree that people there can be judgmental, but they have seen sleeveless tops. We are not talking about Saudi Arabia or Iran.

I also think people see what they expect to see. Perhaps this lady was expecting to be stared at for her dress and was being too sensitive. I am not saying that it may not have happened once or twice, but I am doubting that it happened over and over again..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2010 08:59PM by bonadea.

In Provo they aren't beheaded, just shunned! LOL

Well, I wasn't there and am not saying it didn't happen to the extent the OP reported, but my BS meter is going off-at least to the extent that she was stared at continuously by numerous people. Sorry, but I have been to Provo many times and have seen plenty of people in shorts and sleeveless tops.I suspect something happened, but am having trouble believing that everyone she ran into acted that way.I'm not going to argue about it, but allow me some doubts.

I live in utah county, and I believe her story. To people outside this area, sleeveless tops and shorts are normal and certainly expected in 90+ degree weather. I'll agree that there has been more and more people dressing similarly, but that doesn't stop the stares. I've seen people get stared at and had snide comments made about other people's clothing when the person has been doing things like... walking on the sidewalk, grocery shopping, shopping at a mall... all things that are hardly wanton, attention-seeking behavior. I applaud her for posting. The only way for her to have avoided being stared at was to avoid a huge chunk of family-oriented restaurants in the area and hide out in her room. I hope more people see what she means... I agree that mormons are their own best advertisement--though not in the way they're hoping..