As one news commentator noted, "This is not even the normal about of political lying. It's way beyond that."

A segment devoted to Romney's obvious lies was presented here:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#46816690

But the bigger question is, does Romney even realize that he is lying? What kind of damaged thought process causes one to blithely sail from one contradictory to comment to another with nary a twinge of conscience.

I think that the mormon church somehow removed Romney's truth-o-meter and replaced it with a sense of privilege so overblown that he thinks he can say anything at any time. He can be inconsistent even within the fairly small domain of his own brain, while still expecting respect to be paid to every utterance.

He is his own General Authority.

hell, he'd lie about the color of his socks if he didn't feel like looking down.

and he also had a way overblown assessment of himself. He was the dispenser of truth, and the total arbitor of its dispensation.

So what you are saying is that Mormon politicians are exactly the same as non-Mormon politicians?

No, I'm not saying Mormon politicians are exactly the same as non-Mormon politicians.

I'm saying that Romney is worse than non-mormon politicians when it comes to lying.

I realize that it really takes a lot of effort to rise above the level of normal lying in the political arena, but Romney does it.

He routinely and casually lies. He has uncanny belief that he can get away with it.

"...utterly unashamed, unprecedented deceit" to quote the news segment.

forbiddencokedrinker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So what you are saying is that Mormon politicians
> are exactly the same as non-Mormon politicians?

The Mormon politician has the Priesthood so his lies have more authority!

<VBG>

Unfortunately, there might be something to this.

The Huffington Post picked up the story about Romney's above-average ability to lie:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/22/rachel-maddow-mitt-romney-lies_n_1372408.html

"I'm not the sort of person who jumps on the gaffe of the moment, but this feels like a watershed sort of thing," she [Maddow] said. "...The degree to which Mr. Romney lies all the time about all sorts of stuff and doesn't care whether he gets caught is perhaps the most notable thing about his campaign."

"...Romney lies "arguably more than any modern candidate for major office, and there are a lot of creeps among them," ..."

My theory is that high ranking mormons, like Romney, suffer from a category of brain damage (or from a faulty thought process) that can be traced back to mormon indoctrination.

Coverage from another source, The Raw Story.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/03/21/maddow-chronicles-the-lies-of-sketchy-mitt-romney/

Excerpt:

“This is hard to talk about in the day to day news context, because there are such low expectations for politicians being truthful and because the word ‘lie’ is both under-used and over-used to the point where everybody is a little touchy about it,” she [Maddow] said.

“But the degree to which Mr. Romney lies, all the time, about all sorts of stuff, and doesn’t seem to care when he gets caught is maybe the single most notable thing about his campaign.”

One detailed example of Romney being caught in a lie: he says one thing, is questioned about his statement immediately afterward, and casually prevaricates. This exchange comes from journalist David Corn. Corn reported on a speech Romney gave in January, at the Pinkerton Academy in Derry, New Hampshire.


"Do you believe," I asked, "that there is more poverty in Europe than the United States?"

"Is that before or after government payments," he responded.

"You can define it any way you want," I said.

"Well, I'll have to think about that," he said, and started to shuffle away.

"But," I said (quickly), "you just stated that European-style welfare creates poverty."

"No, I didn't," Romney replied. "I said, look at Cuba, North Korea, and the former Soviet Union."

He hadn't said anything about those countries. He hadn't mentioned them once in his speech.

"No," I insisted, "you said European-style welfare leads to poverty. That's precisely what you said."

"No," Romney repeated, "I was talking about Cuba, North Korea, and the former Soviet Union."

It was hard to know how to respond to this utterly false denial. (Later on, I thought of an appropriate reply: "I'll bet you $10,000.")
------------

And, for reference, here's exactly what Romney did say during that speech:

What kind of America [are we] going to have... Are we going to remain a merit society?... Some people don't like free enterprise and capitalism... There are those who say let's not go down this path. Let's instead take a course to become a European-style welfare society where the role of government is to take from some and give to others. It sounds good. It creates greater equality. But it also creates poverty. Look at the history of the world. Even in Europe—which is not as free enterprise-oriented as we are—the income per person in Europe is 50 percent less than in this country. I do not want America to follow the path of Europe.

Mormonism is a culture of tall tales, rationalization, excuses, contradictions, and lies. Romney is a product of that culture.

To quote the newscaster at the end of the segment about Romney lying:

"...Romney-style dishonesty is a sight to behold ... it's different, he's bending the curve."

I just shared that on facebook and apparently started a battle with my TBM inlaws. They will lose.

"How do you know when a politician is lying? His lips are moving."

An old joke, but true nonetheless.

I was dishonest as a TBM from time to time, and didn't even realize I was doing it... until much later.

I lived in a total bubble most of the time.

Birdie2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was dishonest as a TBM from time to time, and
> didn't even realize I was doing it... until much
> later.
>
> I lived in a total bubble most of the time.


This is off topic, I realize, but could you share some specific examples of this? As a nevermo the doublethink is interesting to me.

'One also finds the same improvised conditions in Utah’s predominately Mormon cities in low income housing areas. I recall one evening, visiting with a young family in a mobile home section of the city. The mother was trying to handle a baby and her other two young children while at the same time trying to carry on a conversation. The mobile home itself was in a bad state of repair, with doors hanging open and parts of the inside coverings torn away from the walls. (The father was out doing home teaching for the church but should have been home repairing his home.) This is but one example of the church spending millions of dollars of their members hard earned money to build temples, and to pay for radio and television commercials for promoting Mormonism, but is not helping to improve the lot of these needy families. Laake must have been thinking the same as she drove through these areas of the BYU community for young married students who are encouraged by church leadership to raise large families.'

` from http://www.mormonconspiracy.com/mormon-church-lds-conspiracy/blogger.html

Romney, like most LDS members, is a graduate of "The Gordon B. Hinckley School of Spin and Double Talk" Where the Grand Motto is:


"I Don't Know That We Teach That"


And the school emblem is:


"Moroni blowing his own horn while holding a Golden Etch-A-Sketch"

I really like the idea of the Golden Etch-A-Sketch.

I would love to see that addition made to the Moroni sculpture atop the Salt Lake Temple.

Birdie2 wrote: "I was dishonest as a TBM from time to time, and didn't even realize I was doing it... until much later."

And that's my point exactly. Birdie2 didn't realize he/she was being dishonest. I mean, what the heck is up with that? It's a trait I see in too many mormons, and it's a trait that's all too obvious in too many businesses dominated by mormons.

I don't think Romney has enough self-awareness left to realize that he is being dishonest. He has redefined truthfulness to mean "whatever I am saying right now."

How long would he have to be out of the cult to have a chance of healing. The guy has been stripped of normal truth/lie judgement skills by the LDS Church. He reminds me of a three year old in that regard.

Once MR is Nominated, these things are going to cut him to pieces.

For Now, its Pass the Popcorn.

I'm glad you pointed out that Romney hates being questioned. I've noticed it over and over and I wondered if it was a trait from the priesthood. It's almost like he reacts physically when asked a question. Very bizarre to watch.

Oops. My previous post was supposed to be under James' post. New to the board, clicked reply in the wrong spot.

I hate to say this too, but Mormons are taught to accept lies from youth and they are taught to engage in "milk before meat" style prevarications from the MTC on. The entire system is built not on answering the question that people actually ask, but answering the question they should have asked. That style of thinking is incorporated into their heads, so to speak, and Mitt simply acts out naturally that way in his political life. Plus, "priesthood" leaders hate being questioned about their lies. It's a somewhat sociopathic attitude -- manipulate people by telling half-truths and then getting mad at them when they catch you on it, blame them for misunderstanding, and claim you never meant what you said.

A perfect reason to be a politician =)

Another news segment about Romney's more-than-any-other-politician lying appeared last night.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#46829675

Excerpt:
"There is something unique about the campaign and that is the frequency with which the candidate himself [Romney] has been lying during the campaign. His willingness to lie about small stuff that doesn't seem to have political benefit to him, lying for the sake of lying but the campaign's lack of compunction and lack of remorse, or even explanation, when they get caught lying. they don't correct it when they get called out, don't feel bad about it, don't seem to see it as a problem. ...."

Sorry about the roughness of the quote posted in my previous comment. The transcript looks like it was auto-generated by a computer program that only works about 90% of the time.

Anyway, I'm sure the basis content is clear.

Here's another excerpt -- it demonstrates another kind of lying, lying by omission and by misdirection:

"[Obama] was quoting somebody else critically and they [Romney campaign] made it look like that's what President Obama was saying on his own behalf. They made it look like he said something he did not say. That's the equivalent of editing the word "don't" out of somebody saying, "I don't love you," in order for you to prove how beloved you are. ...That was the first Mitt Romney ad out of the campaign."

The newscast goes on to talk about Romney's "sliminess" and "sleight of hand."

It's, in part, the complete lack of remorse, and the complete lack of conscience that accompanies the lies -- that's the part that reminds me of the LDS Church.

Romney doesn't even try to spin an explanation of the lies. He just lies and calls it good.

Wow, this quote could so well apply to the church, frequent lies, big and small. No remorse, no explanation, no correction, just carry on. It's a very arrogant attitude. Isn't this how sociopaths think? Scary really.

However, it does remind me of other politicians who can deceive many with their non-apologtic attitude, so not unique to Romney but interesting that the media notices it more on him.

I think the media notices it more with Romney because he stepped up the lying game. He's worse than other politicians, and that's really remarkable considering how bad most politicians are.

Romney took political expediency and married it to mormonism. It's time people woke up to how dangerous that combination is.

The man's ethical compass is not just switched off for political purposes, it's broken.

Or perhaps his ethical compass was surgically removed during a temple ritual.

Another excerpt from the Romney-lies news:

"Here's the further question: Is this not just a character question for Mitt Romney, that he's okay with lying even when he gets caught? Is this instead a standard he will set for his campaign? ...Is Mitt Romney leading by example here? Is he signaling he expects people who support him to behave in this same way and have these same standards?.."


Let me answer those questions: Yes.

Mitt Romney is setting a new standard for lying by politicians. He brings a mormonish readiness to lie, coupled with a mormonish inability to feel remorse for lying.

Furthermore, he thinks everybody is like him (or should be like him) -- so, yes, he does expect everyone who supports him to carry on with the lying.

If -- scratch that "if"-- When LDS Church leaders lie, do they expect church members to follow their lead?

A narcissist is never wrong...or so believes the narcissist.

Romney and his church act the same, no doubt because he was born into mormon royalty and learned to behave the same way.

I watched the show and I felt uneasy about it because my Nevmo wife has ranted about the same things Maddow talked about. Of course my wife was not talking about Romney but about my TBM family members and my TBM ex-wife. I also recognize this lying element in my own past and I do agree that it is something mormons seem to have in common. I tried to put words to where that instinctual drive to slap lies on things comes from and I feel that it comes from being immersed in a culture that constantly warps perceptions and rationality. Think about how many times the morg has spun information so hard it breaks…”mental gymnastics” is the term I’ve heard some posters use. For example, DNA evidence that the Native Americans are not from the lost tribes of Israel but are from Syberia. Mormons used to teach (for 150+ years) that this was not the case and now they re-spun their teaching to say that Lehi’s exodus was so miniscule that they didn’t affect the DNA of the main population. This is a total reversal to what they have said before but mormons would not admit to it.

I think that mormons, in their heart of hearts, don’t believe they are lying. It is simply their perception of realty is so distorted it makes their words seem like lies. Really the root of this rests within the members: they are constantly lying to themselves to make their beliefs fit with reality. It is this broken view of reality that drives the dishonesty in other things.

I’m sure Mitt Romney really believed himself when he said that President Obama DOUBLED the deficit. In his mind – using his funny math – President Obama was about to double the deficit with “Obamacare”. So why not just spout out this “fact” now…without waiting for the proof. When confronted about it later he simply denied that he ever said that because he was not presenting facts but distortions of facts that weren’t facts at all so he was never really behind them in the first place.

This action creates a very unstable front that is off-putting to normal society. “Lying for the Lord” creates a culture of dishonest people. They lie to themselves so much they have difficulty keeping track of what is truth.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2012 02:46PM by praydude.

I was born and raised Mormon. In 1978 my eyes were opened and I've realized how bogus it is since then. But almost all my religious/church experience was Mormonized.

For three years I sang in a Presbyterian choir. One of the choir members, noticing that I didn't partake of the Lord's Supper, gave me a book of Christian apologetics. I took it home and read it.

What really surprised me was how open and honest the author was about PROBLEMS with Christianity. He was defending the faith but he openly admitted that there are certain areas where he didn't have satisfactory answers.

This was new to me, because I'd only heard Mormon apologetics. Then I realized that Mormons, in talking about their religion, are politicians. If you ask a politician a difficult question he will smile, thank you for asking, make a minor acknowledgement of the question and then seamlessly morph into a presentation of his talking points that only touch on the original question tangentially.

This is EXACTLY what Gordon B. Hinckley did when he was interviewed by the "mainstream media." When interviewed by TIME magazine he hemmed and hawed about the "God was once a man" doctrine to the point that the TIME reporters said he seemed unsure about the doctrine. And we all know about "I don't know that we teach that, I don't know that we emphasize it."

Seeing a religious speaker speak honestly and openly and NOT as a politician was a surprise for me. So, yes, Mormonism taught Romney to talk like a politician. Mormons ALWAYS are about putting on the best face rather than being up front. Romney was trained since childhood to engage in "politician speak." What's a mission if not two years of "politician speak?"

The bretheren told Mitt he could take the laisse faire attitude on abortion when he ran for governor of Massechusetts. He apparently was completely comfortable doing it. Time has passed and he continues to say what he needs to say and do what he needs to do. A person who lies so easily is someone I cannot suffer easily. We all lie some. But every now and again you run up against a person who lies so much that he doesn't know when he is lying or telling the truth.

The Mormon church taught Mitt Romney to believe that lies are truth. He can't help it if he sometimes can't tell the difference now.

Either that or lying salesmen are driven to Mormonism. One of the two (or both).