Unbelievable. It is amazing how clear I can see things and not believe what this church asks of its members.

I have left, which unfortunately has turned my 15 year old daughter ultra extreme TBM. We are far away from Utah, which means early morning seminary, which every year up until now, was held at her school only 10 minutes away, not too huge of a deal.

This year the school refused to let them use the school, so they've been temporarily holding class at the ward building, which is inconvenient for many of us, a full half hour drive for me. I did it because it was temporary until a solution was found. Last week our Bishop called a meeting of all the parents to discuss solutions (possibly meeting in regional groups at someone's house). I haven't stepped in a church in 2 yrs but went because I wanted a say.

The meeting was held in the chapel and the bishop got up front acting very sober. He made it clear there will be no comments, everyone just needs to be quiet and listen to him. He first explained why the school won't let us in and it's not because they're discriminating against Mormons. Fine. Then he said that he has had inspiration on where seminary is to be held, after much prayer. He then said that it is to continue to be held in the Chapel for the rest of the year, that our sacrifice in bringing our children will be worth it and strengthen our children's testimony (he went on that line for quite a while). He finished saying that he wants everyone to hold their comments. We should all fast and pray about it on fast sunday and then if they don't feel the same spirit they can talk then.

I was freaking out in the audience, my daughter said she looked over and I looked pissed. I WAS! What the hell, half hour every morning each freakin way while I have children at home to get ready and a husband who travels? Nobody but a cult would ask so much of its people, and what killed me is that no one in the audience was reacting but me?!! 1/2 hour drive to and from 5 days a week, I think we're doing homeschool seminary!! Anyone else had to work this hard for their early morning brainwash session?

When I was still "active", I watched as there were a few seminary students that also had to travel this far each morning. We also live in an area that gets quite a bit of snow or ice each winter... and early mornings can be especially difficult to travel. There would be no way in hell that I'd allow my child to drive in some of the conditions that they were expected to drive in. No way in hell.....They were told basically the same thing, and that home-study was not an option. (That was one of the many eye openers that I had on our way out...)

Stupid cult.

I hated, with a passion, driving my kids (and some neighbour kids) to EMS, waiting for it to finish, and them driving them home, at a God forsaken early hour.

The ex does it now. (chuckle)

... someone saying the home-study seminary just isn't as effective. Of course it's not! You need your daily dose of brainwashing in order for the brainwashing to work! Preferably while still tired. Grrrrrr.... Ya know, wasn't there some study a few years back that stated that teenagers do better when they're able to start school later in the morning? Wow! You would think the cult would have already known this through all its "revelation".

It's all part of "the plan"....

Stupid cult....

The whole seminary situation is just plain ridiculous!

Why does one need to have seminary early morning anyway?

I live on the east coast of the US and church is 1 hour away. We have very large ward boundaries and its about 2 hours driving from one end of the ward to the other.

So when they call a Seminary teacher, someone always has to travel far to get either to this person's house or to church, which is really difficult especially early morning because a lot of school starts so very early.

Take our situation for example. If my daughter attended Seminary, she must leave seminary by 6 AM in order to make it to school by 7 AM. Her school starts at 7:03AM. And schools do not tolerate lateness, like mormon standard time... Even if seminary started at 5AM and lasted until 6AM, and we leave home at 4AM, she would have to get up well before that, say 3-3:30AM. And leaving Seminary at 6AM would not give us enough time to get to school if we run into traffic, etc. Its just a lot of angst for very little reward, plus she would be tired all the time as would I. We would have to go to bed at 7PM in order to get enough sleep. I don't even get home from work until 6:30PM most days. Seminary just isn't practical logistically.

Now ask me if this is crazy?! Of course it is. So why not have Seminary in the evenings or maybe on Sunday? Not Saturday because people have other things to do that day.

Nope. Won't happen. Seminary MUST be early morning or it isn't REAL Seminary. Just plain stupid. Even SLC doesn't have early morning seminary...so why do those of us outside SLC and Idaho have to do this? And everyone lies and tell you how good it is for you. Otherwise their sacrifices would label them stupid, right? Well it IS stupid. There is also life outside church for my kis, like school activities etc. This is of course a no no, right? *rolls eyes*

Of course the other stupid thing about early morning seminary is as parents is that we have to *wait* (usually with people we can't stand) while our kids spend their hour since there's no time to go home. It ticks off nearby neighbors having all these cars pile into their neighborhood, so we have to drop our kids off, find a local McDonalds or something and *wait* until the hour is up. It completely sucks. And the church leadership could care less, even the ones who have kids in the program! That's because their wives take the kids to seminary and they generally are not happy about it...but its "worth the sacrifice" and "what god would want." *rolls eyes* What a load of crap! The material taught would be the same at 7PM as it is at 5AM and frankly the kids would be AWAKE instead of asleep! Its abuse, pure and simple. Let's all jump in the lake at 2:30AM because it is speshul and bla bla. It's tradition and god would want that.... *rolls eyes again*

Just another reason that I am glad to be out of the cult!

Hidden Sister, that is just awful. I feel so badly for you. NO I WOULD NOT DO IT!!! They have no feelings for you regarding expense for gas, your other children, time lost driving both ways, etc. That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard of. Does your daughter really think she needs this instruction? Or does the brainwashing tell her she needs it???? Ask her that. I would have stood up anyhow and brought up your points so all could hear. He doesn't want diaglouge on this issue, but he should get an earful!!!

Seminary is such an incredible waste of time, gas, and sleep.
I posted about this on the old board, but in my home ward, it covered a good portion of Colorado Springs including Manitou.
My ward had the "rich, upper-class" Broadmoor types and us poor low-class westsiders.

Of course, the Bishop was always from the Broadmoor area.
For a long time, seminary used to rotate from to homes from both sides. Then it was decided to keep it at the chapel, which was convienently close to the Broadmoor side.

It's ridiculous to get teenagers out of bed at 5 in the morning, drive across town for to listen to the same bullshit you get every Sunday for 3 hours. I cannot count how many times I nearly fell asleep while driving. Dangerous, stupid, and asinine expectations!!!

LOL..how do YOU know this?

Just the fact that seminary is so far away looks like an opportunity for you to have a good talk with your daughter. Perhaps just telling her it's just not possible to make the drive anymore and exposing her to facts of Mormon history.

Oh yeah, I especially love how he told the adults, who are responsible for bringing their kids, to "hold their comments."
What a pompous jackass!

Could your daughter catch a ride with a friend?

This sounds impossible for you. I would not take her.

Aren't there any universities between your house & BYU? & if you look across the continent- aren't there conceivably a multitude of universities with better career emphasis on specific majors, say, MIT or somewhere? Aren't there possibly OTHER lesser academically acheiving universities for less academically competitive test scorers on the continent- that are still better than uh BYU?

That is what these seminary people are marketing! they are marketing themselves! as essential not only today, socially, but for - gasp- survival! They are generating fears & selling anxiety to possibly the entire family certainly to this daughter- marketing their service as an essential for college admittance. NOT Its propoganda.

btw find out if there is any help for redirecting teenage oppositional defiance (they hate being told what to do or think) and push for independence (developmental goal) by pushing generally away from parents- - - find out if there is any way of redirecting her rebellion against YOU- so she is not rebelling into the church since you aren't going there.
Find out if you can get some help or coaching. What are the triggers- words, phrases, practice dialog or specific statements to 'de-escalate' & 'dis-empower' this focal point.

home study seminary- I did it for a year or two- makes you very very serious. It comes in weekly magazine style packets, you fill them out like workbooks as you either do them daily or catch up. & it the graphics have places and lines to fill in.
They tell you to pray- what to mention in the prayer, then tell you to read, take you through a guided reading- and tell you what to think about what you read.
They tell you what to reply- imply there is a right answer-
open dialoge or argument don't exist alone with a workbook that
keeps telling you to fill in the blanks-
tells you to set a timer and search scriptures by yourself
tells you what to mention or be thankful or anxious for- when you pray.

Further when someone talks, you can critisize them- their clothes, their kids, their credibility is always open for you to rebel against....
a printed booklet from the church- whoa- eeeeeeeeh (insert expression of awe)
there's no arguing with it.

If you haven't left concrete literal thinking when you get an official workbook from GOD hey, well, finally he's talking to you.

Many early morning seminary kids are there because their parents make them, very flippant, some giving the teachers heck, I think they eat some Fridays. Sitting alone with your official church teen dogma manuals is insert plug start programming. If they have got you every 2 paragraphs telling your to do another movement- scripting what to think- what to write- what is going on

is blatant programming. I don't like it- no critical thinking component.

Trust me I've tried to de-program the girl, told her much of the history, but they got to her first and she has a lot of extended family and friend support.

What truly pisses me off is that they hold BYU admission as a hostage to seminary graduation. We can't simply say, this year is too hard. I don't know what I'll do, it will be open rebellion at my house if I say no. And yes, winters here are nasty.

How about, I prayed about it, and got the answer that no, can`t do it. Would love to, but we`re unable to due to needing to concentrate on my family`s needs. etc

Hidden Sister, I hope your daughter realizes what a hardship, nay, an impossibility this is for you logistically. You say you have other children to tend and get off to school and hauling your daughter to her new seminary locale impinges on your parental duties to them.

If you daughter really wants to attend seminary, she needs to find somebody to carpool with. Period.

Neglecting your parental duties to your other kids so that one child can immerse herself in more religious brainwashing is ridiculous.

And that bishop is an asshole to tell parents to keep their yaps shut while he made his holy pronouncements during the meeting. What a dictator.

in early morning seminary. It was the biggest waste of time, talents and life imaginable. The only thing I got out of it was one year I read the assigned book of scripture all the way through, (I think it was the Old Testament) and the seminary teacher rewarded everyone who did with a river rafting trip. Oh, and my parents bought me a car at 16 because they didn't want to have to drive me any more. I was always tired in school. But the wastefulness is what bothers me most.

When I look back at all the sacrifices that I made on behalf of this cult I get very angry. The wear and tear on my car the gas bill not to mention how tired my daughter was from the early morning hours makes me sick to the bone. She felt that she could have done better in school if it weren't for the demands of seminary.

Face it you're not going to get much from a bunch of programed muted people who can't think for themselves. The church is nortorious for using the name of God as a scapegoat for anthing that they feel might be questioned by the members. This is why no one reacts because they feel that it would be going agaisnt God's divine inspiration when in reality it's commonly used in the church to shut everyone up.

People don't even dare to voice opinion just because The Boss said not to? What is he gonna do?

Seriously though, I do get it. As former slaves we thought that God would curse us, or we would lose our temple blessings if we dared to speak against one of the Lords Annointed.

The power these people hold should be scaring us to death.

Do not forget- you as the parent have every right to say "No".
No I will not drive a half hour every morning.
No I will not risk my childs health and grades.
No I will not hold my opinion until I have lost my will to stand.
No I will not do as you say without good reason.
No I will not send my child to seminary unless it is convenient.

No church has more authority than the parent.
No church has more authority than the parent.
No church has more authority than the parent.
No church has more authority than the parent.
No church has more authority than the parent.

No church has the authority to take away Gods blessings from you.

JoD3:360 Wrote:

>
> Do not forget- you as the parent have every right
> to say "No".

ABSOLUTELY!!!!! Your daughter is NOT in charge, you are. YOU are the decision-maker in your home. You are the parent. If she doesn't like it, she can find a ride with somebody else. You have absolutely no obligation to put yourself in a position which disrupts your other children's schedule, not to mention requires a money commitment (gas and car wear and tear), and the ill effects that lack of sleep can have on teenagers. BYU is not the only college in the country, and she can choose another. Don't back down. Be strong and say NO to this ridiculous idea.

We all had enough to do with getting to school and work, etc., and seminary would have upset family morning routines, I guess. Sundays were enough.

I didn't go even once and I turned out OK. Atheist and apostate. Like I said, OK.

Are these teenagers we are talking about. How in the world do they get them up so early, we have problems getting ours up for the 11:00 service on Sunday morning!!

This is why we left. When we lived in Ohio, our bishop made everyone travel to the chapel (15 miles away) vs. the legacy location; a community center that was a mile from the home and 200 yards from High School. There was a meeting and everyone just nodded their heads and went along. I was just back from Iraq and was in no mood to be messed with. So, we, as a family, said to hell with it and left. We have been very happy since. All three of our kids will tell you that their life is much better as a normal person/kid vs. a mormon. We now live in Colorado. The middle child is in High School and tells us, on a regular basis, that she is very happy she does not have to waste time on EMS.

Best to all,

Merrill

I loved this comment "We also live in an area that gets quite a bit of snow or ice each winter... and early mornings can be especially difficult to travel. There would be no way in hell that I'd allow my child to drive in some of the conditions that they were expected to drive in. No way in hell....."

I grew up in Ohio and there was plenty of early morning Seminary snow. I was allowed to do homestudy the first year. Then after that, my parents decided I was going and that was that. They had to leave for work about 20 minutes before Seminary started. So they never made a sacrifice on their own part. They just laid down the law "You WILL go..." End of discussion.

They did go as far as to arrange for rides for me. After a while, I was expected to arrange for my own rides. There are always a few kids in the ward who have driver's licenses and those kids always spent their last two years in high school chauffering their friends around the county, to and from Seminary. By my senior year, I was given access to the family car and was expected to go pick up other kids and drive us all the 20 minutes to the ward building. I WISH my parents had had a "no way in hell will MY kid drive on ice and snow" attitude. I drove to Seminary on many mornings when school was cancelled because the roads were so bad.

My point is twofold:
1) We have a tendency to over coddle kids these days. Back in the day, when we were given sharp knives and sent out in to traffic to play, there was never any discussion about my parents driving me all over the place. If I wanted to go somewhere, there was the city bus and/or my ten-speed. And/or my feetz.

2) If your kid is such a faithful turbo TBM and it's that important to her to attend Seminary, then she's on her own. She can car pool with other kids/parents, get her own license, take the city bus, whatever. Know what my TBM father said to me when I was about 16? "If you want to do something badly enough, it doesn't matter if you have my permission, you will find a way to make it happen." So give her the responsibility of getting herself back and forth and don't worry about it. Either communication will get garbled and she won't get picked up consistently, or someone will decide what a pain in the ass it is to shuffle a bunch of teenagers all over town at 5:00 in the morning, or the bishop will let her do home study. Or she will find it so difficult to get herself there, she'll get a way to get permission to do home study.

This was funny to me too: "Seminary just isn't practical logistically." Ha ha ha ha ha. My EMS started at 5:55 a.m. I had to get up at 4:30, drive around the neighborhood to pick up a few friends (mostly just sat outside their houses and stayed pissed off their parents let them sleep in and I was sitting out in my frozen car waiting for riders who weren't showing up and couldn't be bothered to tell me that the night before), and then head out to the other side of town to church. I don't remember what time it let out, but I know I had to be at school at 7:30 to work in the bookstore, and I rolled up at the house around 7:00. I had 30 minutes to get dressed, do hair and makeup, grab my school work and eat breakfast.

This was 20 years ago. Nothing is different except people who were my age and had to transport themselves to EMS back in the day now believe somehow that it is not safe to expect high school aged kids to get themselves to church early in the morning IF THAT KID WANTS TO GO. I worked after school at the city library. Then I had to make my own dinner and do my chores which included doing my own laundry. My parents didn't do JACK for me. I'd sit down to homework around 10 or 11 at night and get up a few hours later and do it all over again the next day. I was exhausted all the time. I HATED it. Finally, I learned to drive around the block where my parents wouldn't see me on their way to work. I'd park between a couple of other parked cars on the street and wait for them to go to work. Then I'd go back home and go back to bed.

If the kid is tired and her grades suffer, that is her choice. I wouldn't have made the choice, but I wasn't given one. I knew I needed more sleep and I wanted more time for my school work and USEFUL activities. Church crap always came first. I would think, if she's at all normal and given the choice, after a while she will get tired of getting herself there and back and will just sort of drop off.

Why any parent would force a kid, I will never understand, but I fail to see what all this drama is about. You don't want to haul the kid around? So don't. Tell her to get a ride with her friends if she wants to go so badly. Rather than solve your kid's problem for her by making it your problem, just. step. back. Let her solve her own problem.

We carpooled and parents took turns - a week every five weeks.

For me the "blessings" were getting to see other LDS peers (including the girl I was sweet on) sometime other than church (we were scattered all over three counties) and not having to take the bus to school, only home.

Don't take her anymore. She's sixteen and she can come up with her own solutions. Frankly, I don't know why anyone would WANT to go to BYU anyway -- or be a Mormon, for that matter. :)

It's just utterly the Stockholm syndrome. The more you are abused, the more you "love" the abusers. I can't believe people put up with this crap these days.

If it was my kid, I'd tell her that she's on her own if that's what she really wants to do. Mom & Dad have to prioritize and driving a kid to seminary is SO far down the list of importance.

Just like the bishop would not allow any discussions, tell her the matter is settled.

You cannot and you will not drive her.

Not all unreasonable requests can be considered or honored by parents.

If the bishop or SP see attendance as absolutely necessary, perhaps they can pull out some money from tithes or fast offerings and hire a car for the year to pick up the teens.

Of course, 2 adults must be present at all times, since no one can ride alone with a member of the opposite sex. LOL.