Question about the Atonement. Mormons always talk about the atonement and how powerful it is. Yesterday I sat in an institute class and a TBM was talking about how he was taken advantage of by a former employer and it filled him with extremely angry feelings. He then related how he employed the atonement, praying everyday, and trying to forgive. After a couple of months he was able to get over, thanks to the power of the atonement...

So what is this power? I mean COME ON! Take another guy who has no religion and who doesn't want to feel pissy all the time and I'm sure he'd get over the same thing in the same time. So what's with all this power stuff. Some of you reformed Christian exmos can help me out, since you still believe in this stuff. Basically it comes to this. Take any person with positive thinking, who has a healthy mentality. Put this person through any kind of a trial and say they overcome it. What was that? How'd they do it? Seems like Christians just accredit success to the atonement. Is there actually some power that I'm missing here?

for all of their sins, each and every one, if they will repent.
The young man was describing the power of the repentance process concerning his angry feelings as it applied to the atonement.

And so how did that help him in anyway? Note that I'm not talking about sins, I'm talking about the whole helping to heal thing not the providing way to god (How it helps now, not how it helps after).

grassboy Wrote:
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> And so how did that help him in anyway? Note that
> I'm not talking about sins, I'm talking about the
> whole helping to heal thing not the providing way
> to god (How it helps now, not how it helps after).


I'll take a stab at it.
It helped him to think of the atonement -- Jesus suffered and died for his sins if he would repent -- because, when he repented of his anger toward being lied to and betrayed, and praying to get over it and through it, he attributed his new peace of mind to understanding the atonement.

Believing that someone suffered for his sins of anger, and maybe hatred, and probably wishing he could bash the guys face in, if he would repent --- meaning: work through the nasty feelings toward the guy through prayer, asking Heavenly Father to forgive him and changing his feelings, afterwards, he felt much better and didn't hate the guy anymore because he understood the atonement.

I think that's it! :-)

Maybe someone else can take a stab at it also!

I do believe in being responsible for your own emotions/feelings, and understanding that hateful, angry, negative feelings/emotions toward another person, hurts me more than it does them. So, I avoid it if at all possible. Of if I feel anger, I let it go as quickly as possible.

I like these teachings much better now:

Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned.
Buddha



We are formed and molded by our thoughts. Those whose minds are shaped by selfless thoughts give joy when they speak or act. Joy follows them like a shadow that never leaves them.
Buddha

Ok, I follow now, but then what was the point of the atonement to do that? Couldn't this guy think about William Wallace or anyone else who suffered and have it render the same effect. I see how the atonement can help with such things. but not how it's different then the help received from any fetish or lucky charm (being that the power comes only from the user).

Be advised, however, that some supposedly "recovered" Ex-Mos continue to speak in that "still condescending voice" as evidenced by their constant attempts to answer rhetorical questions.

Its called "apologetics"

Be it belief in the teachings of JuHEEsus or adherence to the teachings of BuHOOddha, there is no magical power or indisputable wisdom that hastens or hinders our capacity to heal.

In my experience, the person that grants a god or philosopher credit where none is due is usually the type of person that will duck responsibility at very turn, particularly when things don't go well.

I think you pretty much nailed it!

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2010 11:18AM by Timothy.

No actually SusieQ#1 its much more than that in mormonism. Jesus suffered for all the sins, sicknesses, and pains that ever occurred. He's been through IT ALL. Not only has he felt a broken leg, but he's felt YOUR broken leg - even if you didn't want him to. He also did this for not only our planet, but for worlds without end...WORLDS WITHOUT END (he didn't do it for the human's who lived before Adam and Eve though, because they don't exist). Somehow Heavenly Father doing that to him makes mormons feel better.

had experienced "forgiving another" rather than "repentance"?

wine country girl Wrote:
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> had experienced "forgiving another" rather than
> "repentance"?


In this case -- I think it's both.
He repented of his hateful destructive feelings toward another person, which went away when he forgave the other person.

I don't bring the atonement into how I deal with my negative emotions about another person, when it happens.I understand that my thoughts can damage my joy and happiness and if I want peace, I need to get rid of resentment.



Those who are free of resentful thoughts surely find peace. Buddha

I like this explanation:
Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned.
Buddha

Think of it this way: IT ALL DEPENDS ON YOUR POINT OF VIEW

These plans of vengence and hatred tie up the good and the happiness you should be enjoying. The power you will feel is the releasing of the strain and weight of another person's actions, off your shoulders. Thus having the satisifaction of knowing that his "evil " actions have not diminished your joy of life.

Christians believe that God will be responsible for handing out justice, so they pray for the sinner, thus releasing themselves from the weight of the "judge Jury and executioner" mentality.

Non Christians believe it is KARMA. What goes around, comes around. So non christians are just happy to let it be according to fate. This also allows them to feel the releasing of the strain and weight of another person's actions, off their shoulders

So it is GOD or KARMA , Take your pick
JB

Of course most atheists like myself don't believe in ANY supernatural forces. There's no reason to believe that there HAS to be a healing force out there. We believe we can be good or bad, depending on our own choices.

I have read just about every thing the church has said on the subject it was a bit convoluted at best, This made more sense than anything I have read on the subject Its on page 88 titled vicarious atonement http://www.ghostcircle.com/ebooks/Anthony%20Borgia%20-%20Facts.pdf But it's all conjecture anyway till you pass on and find out for yourself

If I punch you and you punch me back, you have exacted vengeance, not forgiveness.

The idea that suffering evens the score is based on the law of vengeance.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't forgiveness mean that you walked away WITHOUT doing an act of vengeance (by you or a proxy?)

So wouldn't a loving God be demonstrating forgiveness if he did NOT expect "payment" for wrongs?

One morning I woke up and the whole idea of Jesus dying for me seemed unbearably repugnant, just impossible.

Hope I'm not offending the Christians here. I am sharing my inner thoughts as I've moved away from Mormonism and then Christianity. Just want to say I have the utmost respect for people's rights to believe what they want and to seek the opinions of others when they want.

Anagrammy

To me the Atonement has nothing to do with what grassboy was told. The Atonement (capital A, Christian religious meaning - Mormons not counting as Christian) was effected by Christ dying, as part of his function to reconcile God and Man.

God - a supposed "perfect" being - creates "imperfect" humans who, not surprisingly, drive him/her/it nuts. Why does someone have to die horribly to reconcile that?

Its a "perfect" plan alright. Perfectly goofy!

Here's a clue, Mr. Know-It-All God. Don't create imperfect beings and they won't drive you nuts!

Timothy

Yeah, no kidding Timothy. We're all on this earth and most seem to agree that physiological factors have a huge role in the behaviour and personality of an individual. Non religious would say that's evidence there's nothing more, religious would say that's why we can't judge our brethren. But then that puts so much of a person's actions dependent on their makeup, which apparently came from God, so then why is he all against sin when so much of it stems from this?

Eg. True Story: An amazing teacher who is admired by students and their parents out of the blue begins making sexual advances on his female students. He begins struggling with sexuality and can't control his impulses. This is to the shock of everyone and it is later discovered he has a tumor in his head. He gets it removed and after the removal he finds there are no more impulses or obsessive tendencies. He returns to normal, the Tumor was creating pressure on part of his brain that caused this nature. A few years go by and this same man calls the cops telling them he needs help right away otherwise he is going to rape his neighbour, as his feelings and drive is out of control. Turns out his tumor had grown back... So the religious say, "See we can't judge people who do this thing, maybe they have tumour or some malfunction that is causing their problem", I say, "Where's the empirical evidence of a spirit, something that stands alone from the brain, if I scramble it up what of the true me is going to remain?"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2010 11:27AM by grassboy.

Imperfect? I'm the best goddam perfect ExMormonRon the summabitch ever made!

Ron