In his revelation on polygamy, Joseph Smith claimed that God specified three requirements for when plural marriage was justified so that it would not be considered adultery. They are listed in section 132, verse 61, as:

1) The first wife must give her consent, and
2) The new wife must be a virgin, and
3) The new wife cannot be vowed to another man.

ALL of these requirements must be met otherwise the man is committing adultery. When we look at the historical record at how Joseph practiced the principle, we find that Emma did not know about the majority of his plural wives, and came to oppose the ones that she did find out about, like the Partridge sisters. We also find that Joseph married eleven women who were currently married, and some who had children with their husbands.

By failing to get Emma’s permission and by marrying non-Virgins who were already married, Joseph was not a polygamists, but was engaged in serial adultery. He started his affairs in 1833, with his affair with Fanny Alger, and continued to have them until just a few months before his death.

Mormon Doctrine is pretty clear about what happens to a man’s priesthood authority and connection with heaven when he commits a great sin like adultery.

“The rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness. … when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.” (D&C 121: 35-37)

“You shall not commit adultery and he that commits, and repents not, shall be cast out. But he that has committed adultery and repents with all his heart, and forsakes it, and does it no more, you shall forgive; but if he does it again, he shall not be forgiven, but shall be cast out.” (D&C 42:25-26)

If Joseph did have some kind of connection with the divine or some priesthood authority originally, his practice of serial adultery means that he lost the right to that authority, he lost the right to speak for God, and that he should have been kicked out of the church. So any revelations or religious insights that the church claimed he received after 1833 cannot be of a divine source.

I have made a video about this idea in more detail, with the help of a couple of fantastic women from the Post Mormon forum, which I think you might enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBHo76tEb5c

What absolute proof is there that he had sex with the women that were already married? Do you have references?

Well, what do you THINK he was doing with them when Emma saw him on several occasions going into the building behind the general store in Nauvoo?

Just wonderin'...

Ron

@ anonow check out this site http://www.i4m.com/think/history/joseph_smith_sex.htm. Quotes like these should show you he had sex with other men's wives...

"Faithful Mormon Prescindia D. Huntington, who was Normal Buell's wife and simultaneously a "plural wife" of the Prophet Joseph Smith, said that she did not know whether her husband Norman "or the Prophet was the father of her son, Oliver." And a glance at a photo of Oliver shows a strong resemblance to Emma Smith's boys."

There is more evidence out there, but this link is a good start.

Those quotes only refer to the women who were not already married.

anonow Wrote:
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> Those quotes only refer to the women who were not
> already married.

I don't believe that's entirely correct. JS was Louisa Beaman's first husband.

She subsequently married BY and had 5 children by him.

But she was not married before marrying JS. She was his 4th wife.

"But she was not married before marrying JS"

Then I don't see how my statement is incorrect in regards to Joseph smith? She married BY after Joseph smith died.

anonow Wrote:
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> "But she was not married before marrying JS"
>
> Then I don't see how my statement is incorrect in
> regards to Joseph smith? She married BY after
> Joseph smith died.

[edited] Apparently, I missed a /not/ in your previous post.

But I'm still not sure what your objection/point is? Perhaps you could clarify.
.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2010 07:10PM by elee.

I guess my point is that even though he may have had sex with some of the unmarried women that he was sealed to, is there any proof he was doing it with women who were already married to someone else as the OP assumes. Back then people were getting sealed to other people(especially church leaders) because they thought they would have a better chance of exaltation. Some married women were were even sealed to JS after he died.

anonow Wrote:
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> I guess my point is that even though he may have
> had sex with some of the unmarried women that he
> was sealed to, is there any proof he was doing it
> with women who were already married to someone
> else as the OP assumes. Back then people were
> getting sealed to other people(especially church
> leaders) because they thought they would have a
> better chance of exaltation. Some married women
> were were even sealed to JS after he died.

I'd recommend the various websites in other posts. They will be a good place to begin and you can check the sources as you go along.

Personally, I don't know the answer to your question. I think it's likely he did have sex with some of his wives.

But mostly I think it's in our best interest to take what these women said seriously. If they say they had sex with JS, why wouldn't we take them at their word? I mean, I can understand lying the OTHER way ("I did NOT have sex with JS), but I can't see a motive to lie about having had sex with JS.

You might also want to read Todd Compton's "In Sacred Loneliness". You used to be able to get it at Deseret Book, but these days, you can probably get it on Amazon.

He claimed to be married to women who did NOT fit the definition of "lawful" polygamy (in his imaginary world, at least) and therefor didn't follow his own rules. So the question becomes; Why would he "marry" already married women? Sound like it was all about sex to me...

But you're right, there is no ABOSOLUTE proof. And if that makes you feel better, go right on telling yourself that.

After Smith died, Young and Kimball married Smith's "widows", including those who already had husbands and still had them when they 'married' the above mentioned.
And here the bishop asks about chastity for TR's. No "Courts of Love" for the Lord's Annointed, I imagine.

This site was researched and is maintained by a faithful LDS. (See "sources")

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/

anonow Wrote:
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> What absolute proof is there that he had sex with
> the women that were already married? Do you have
> references?

Why is it that apologists do not deny that every other polygamist church leader had sex with their wives, but they do not want to admit that Joseph did? Wasn't it the exact same principle that they were living? Didn't Joseph instruct them how to live it? Why would they live it any differently than how their prophet taught them to? Dosen't the LDS scriptures (Jacob 2) say that the purpose of polygamy is to raise up a righteous seed? Can't do that without sex.

If Joseph was marrying the women, in name only, then why was it such a secret? Why did he violate every requirement given to him by God when taking additional wives? Is there really a need to be as deceptive about it as he was if it these were only paper marriages? The married women he was marrying were violating their marriage oaths to their husbands. Joseph did violate the requirements of the D&C even if he did not have relations.

One of them, I forget which, wrote in her diary she was his wife "in very deed".

martinf wrote:

One of them, I forget which, wrote in her diary she was his wife "in very deed".
<<<<<<<
I believe it was Eliza Snow. Sarah Pratt made numerous statements concerning Smiths's philanderings.

- Faithful Mormon and Stake President Angus Cannon told Joseph Smith's son: "Brother Heber C. Kimball, I am informed, asked [Eliza R. Snow] the question if she was not a virgin although married to Joseph Smith and afterwards to Brigham Young, when she replied in a private gathering, "I thought you knew Joseph Smith better than that.""
(Stake President Angus M. Cannon, statement of interview with Joseph III, 23, LDS archives.)

Otherwise, there would not have been the extreme need for secrecy that eventually led to his death. If he was only doing some sort of temple ordinance that involved sealing, there would be records and revelations to back that idea up, and he would have told people what he was doing. He wouldn't have needed to be forced into it by multiple visits from angels with drawn swords.

He would not have had such objections from Emma if there was no hanky-panky. She wouldn't have claimed he never practiced polygamy with such vehemence. She would have just explained what he was up to. She wouldn't have needed to have a special revelation commanding her to accept simple sealings.

Smith calls these unions marriages, and marriages imply sex. It really is that simple. Smith was a good communicator.

Several of his widows went on record saying there was intimacy. Several other upstanding Mormons claimed there was intimacy and even pregnancies. Did he have such little discernment that he married a bunch of liars?

Some marriages took place with witnesses in hotel rooms. After the ceremony was completed, the other priesthood holder left, leaving JS and his new plural wife in a bedroom alone. How many people believe that they just talked or played cards there in the hotel that night? Again, these descriptions come from basic sources Mormons consider credible - until they hear the content.

I am not disputing the fact that he may have had sex with some of the "spiritual" wives; I am just looking for better support that he did it with women who were already married.

http://runtu.wordpress.com/2008/03/28/sexuality-in-joseph-smiths-marriages/

I think that considering that sexual relations are a normal part of marriage, and considering that the D&C section that commands plural marriage gives its stated purpose as procreation ("for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth") and that we know JS did have sex with some of his polygamous wives, the burden of proof in this case falls on anyone who is asserting that there were NO sexual relationships in the polygamous and polyandrous "marriages". That much seems clear.

I'm open to the idea that there might not have been a sexual component to some of the relationships, though I'm not seeing how that fits with the stated goal of the so-called commandment.

angsty Wrote:
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> I think that considering that sexual relations are
> a normal part of marriage, and considering that
> the D&C section that commands plural marriage
> gives its stated purpose as procreation ("for they
> are given unto him to multiply and replenish the
> earth")
>
> I'm open to the idea that there might not have
> been a sexual component to some of the
> relationships, though I'm not seeing how that fits
> with the stated goal of the so-called commandment.

By marrying young teen girls, it prevented them from marrying anyone else. So if Joseph was not going to have sex with them, they were prevented from having it with anyone else and having children. Where does that fit in with anywhere with Mormon scripture?

Like you said, that is contrary to the "revelation".

If we accept D&C132 at face value, JS asks God "am I committing adultery?" What the heck was he doing with these women if he felt the need to ask. It wasn't "upstairs, outside..."

Holy the Ghost Wrote:
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> If we accept D&C132 at face value, JS asks God "am
> I committing adultery?" What the heck was he doing
> with these women if he felt the need to ask. It
> wasn't "upstairs, outside..."


True. Why does God spend all of those verses talking about what is and is not adultery if there was no sex involved.

I am amazed at how TBM's try to rationalize and justify Joseph's adultery. After I found out about the teen brides and polyandry, I could not make excuses for him anymore. How the people that continue to do so consider themselves moral is beyound me.

previously married, often mothers, often widows of other leaders. I know John Taylor married an ancestor of mine who kidnapped her 2 kids and followed him to Nauvoo.

Their polygamous wives sure weren't virgins either.

D&C 132 references virgins, as well as raising up a seed (children). In those days, there was really only one way to raise up seed. D&C 132 certainly suggests sex is to be involved. Now, since JS did not follow his owns rules, I suppose he may not have in this case. BUT, considering he was such a horny hound dog, I have no doubt he was a serial adulterer and serial aggrevated child sex offender.

Joseph Smith WAS a polygamist and he also WAS an adulterer. Let us not turn off the spigot of logic and forget that Joseph used his revelations on polygamy to conduct sanctioned affairs.

The problem is that there isn't any proof as to what Joseph Smith *did* with his wives. And it really doesn't matter.
Sex or no sex, that's not the real issue.

The real issue is that he committed adultery.

Why? Because:

1. He lied to Emma about the marriages. This was clearly wrong and against God's Commandment to him. [to not be practicing adultery] It says nothing in this about its ok as long as you don't have sex. It tells him to seek out Emma's approval FIRST. Sex or No sex. It is the marriage that is the problem and the way he did it--not what he did after marriage.

2. If the woman he married was already married and had children by another man, she CLEARLY could not be a virgin. This violated the second instruction. Let's face it-marrying a women already married to another man while that man is still alive is a clear NO YOU DON'T DO THIS. Please explain this to this woman's children. Um kids, your ma needed to marry the prophet um cause he said so or else. Yeah, right. WRONG, WRONG AND TOTALLY WRONG.

ETC ETC. It doesn't matter whether or not Joseph Smith had sex with his wives. He was guilty of adultery by simply not following the guidelines God gave him.

Joseph Smith engaged in plural marriage and the way in which he did so made him an adulterer. Since he did this repeatedly, he is clearly a serial adulterer.

We don't even have to get into the issue of WHY he did this, do we? It's pretty obvious that if you hide something like marriage to another women from your LAWFUL WIFE, that it's a bad thing, right? Prophet or no Prophet.

The fact that the prophet did this is the entire problem BECAUSE HE IS THE LEADER OF THE CHURCH.

This act [adutlery] would have immediately disqualified him as prophet because he would have and should have lost his priestood, especially given the serial nature of this act because it shows zero repentance.

There is no other conclusion to draw. The problem is whether or not god would tolerate a prophet who commits adultery and doesn't have the priestood or if somehow Joseph Smith is exempt.

To me, it appears in mormon history as if Joseph Smith is exempt from following the rules. He is given a pass because he is the prophet. Doesn't that seem wrong to anyone???

Well said lost.