Sorry but this is way too much drama. The Guy could barely keep his emotions in check, cried all the way......
If I could suggest anything, dude gewt on with your life, one way or the other....
Life cannot consist of Melodrama. Especially when you know for sure nothing in this Church claims is true.

Remember when you were TBM?

During a talk if you cry the more tears you shed the more true and more spiritual your message is.

I think this is a tactic he uses to push those buttons in TBMs. This may be intentional or unconscious but it works for him.

Personally, I can't take it. I couldn't listen to it all the way through. The crying was totally annoying me.

Years ago, we lived in the same ward as Michael McLean, performer, musician, etc.

Mike was very dramatic. One time he went to the podium to 'bare' his testimonkey. He reached up to wipe away a glistening tear, held out his finger to get a good look at the tear, then wiped it on the podium. puh-leez.

I listened, and I didn't get the impression that the tears were anything other than genuine. I sensed some real pain there, and I can empathize with that. Some of his tears were centered around testimony-like things, like the child of God comment, and I know that makes some of us nauseated. He has chosen a tough road to walk, and I respect him for that. IMO, the church would love for him to officially leave so they could discredit him in the eyes of the members. He is walking a fine line with a big target on his back, and it will be interesting to see how long that will last. I couldn't do what John is doing, but I am glad someone is. No doubt a significant number of people will start with John’s website and end up here. Like Richard Packham said in his recent post, "Some people, when escaping from a burning building, try to help those still caught in it to escape. Others simply walk away, thankful that THEY escaped".

pathdocmd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Like Richard Packham said in his
> recent post, "Some people, when escaping from a
> burning building, try to help those still caught
> in it to escape. Others simply walk away, thankful
> that THEY escaped".


Except that Dehlin is urging people to stay in the burning building, telling them literally that there is fire everywhere so you might as well stay because things are about to get better.

The guy is a quack, plain and simple.

One has to get on with life rather than wasting it with constant crying & feeling sorry for himself....
One can take that midlife crisis stretching to no end.

I think he was actually pretty calm and I was able to listen to the full 18 minutes. I appreciated what he says about not being able to stay silent when people are being harmed, including those who choose to leave and are treated terribly by their families and the church. I don't feel the same way he does about God and traditions but I can respect his opinion that those things have value to him. I thought it was interesting that he basically admitted he is trying to change the church and referred to Reform Mormonism. I am out and don't intend to go back no matter how much they reform themselves but the fact is there are probably 5 million people still in the church and many of them are not going to leave no matter what. So if some people like John Dehlin stay in the church and succeed in making changes that make those 5 million people's lives less miserable then I think that is a great thing. It is nice to think that the church will just completely collapse and not exist anymore but that is just not how religions work. There are always going to be some people who hold on and Mormonism is big enough that it has a lot of staying power.

Posting anon because I've been ridiculed in this phorum for criticizing JD in the past. This time I am only going to focus on his own words. Mostly.

I read the transcript to save myself the tearful delivery. Five pages of cognitive dissonance at its finest. The author's emotional connections interfere with his capacity to process and evaluate the facts he cannot deny, and his emotional links with church and family keep him from leaving. I wondered, when he said he didn't want to see his kids sitting in church alone, why he would have them to sit there at all. He may recognize the elitism but in the end he wants to be part of the "0.5 of 1%" that what passes for his God loves and directs through a corporation sole.

I do not understand how a mature adult can attribute both his virtues and his vices on an external structure of any kind, and evidence of that mindset appears in his words.

First the virtues. He says, "I stay because the church continually reminds and motivates me to try harder to be a good
father, and a good husband. And I need these reminders."

Really? He can't look around his house and remind himself? The faces of his loved ones and the love of his children cannot provide the internal motivation for him to be "a good" anything? Such motivation should come from within a person. And any human situation can provide a reminder to be "good." That perception should not depend on anything external.

And now the vices. This sentence was the only one in bold, so I assume it is the key point in his litany of arguments. "I stay because I still love this church. As dysfunctional, as broken and as misguided as it behaves sometimes – it is no more dysfunctional, broken or misguided than I am – if I’m being honest with myself." The church "behaves" and "I am". That seems so twisted to me. He seems to be able to say he is broken, misguided, and dysfunctional, though the insitution merely *behaves* that way *sometimes*. If he were to make an exact comparison, he would have said the church "is" those things or he "does" them, behaves that way sometimes. It is as if retaining his membership facilitates his identifying himself with those qualities--a strange form of projection. And an abdication of his responsibility to himself and his family and his community.

I found it interesting, a strange affirmation of his willingness to identify himself in these terms and to perpetuate those qualities, to see them amplified around him. It is as if he is unwilling to be responsible for his own virtues and vices--and to determine his own course of action without the dictates of his tribe and maybe his own conscience.

Someone in his chosen profession should have the capacity of self-governance to some degree in order to counsel others to do the same. Or maybe I don't get what therapy is about.

Which brings me to a final observation about people who selectively invoke God and Christ as exemplars.

Jesus is the gold standard. He threw the money changers out of the temple. The people who run the church have blatantly revealed themselves to be money changers. Wouldn't it be most Christlike to run the bastards out of the holy spaces they have set up as a cash commodity--ten percent for "exaltation"?

And Jesus was willing to give his life for the truth he spoke. Willing to be nailed to a cross rather than take back what he said. What's a little excommunication for apostasy in exchange for the integrity of one's words and actions?

Which is why reason is one thing and belief is another. And when they conflict, people find reasons to justify belief at the expense of reason.

after the initial freak out: realizing it was all a house of cards,
I rabidly read/ listened to/ researched everything I could find.
I found Mr. dehlins site and watched/ listened to ALL that was available.

I'll always be grateful for the work he has done.

But I just cannot understand why he stays.
I'm not in his shoes, so I'm sure ill never know...
It just seems like there is a behind the scenes reason
why he's got one foot in, and one foot out.

For me, once i knew the truth, my brain/soul/psyche/conscious demanded i disassociate myself immediately and completely from Ld$inc.

But that's just me.....

I like John Dehlin. And he may be the most dangerous man in Mormonism.

And an even bigger suit... I mean we're talking Denial C. Peterson, aren't we?

Okay, probably have to retire that old saw for a time, but I have a hunch he'll be back...

Anon's answer reminds me of the "Dear John" post a few days ago: Sharp analyses of John's own words, both of them!

I agree with oddcouplet. John has helped a lot of people and he is a force for change.

It is also true though,that the Church can't change enough to make it worthwhile.

When you start with a wagon full of shit, it is best to dump the load, not make it better by replacing some of the shit. Some people though can't get unharnessed from the wagon for various reasons. Throwing in a few roses improves their plight. It is still mostly shit, but it is more tolerable.

I've heard him say virtually the opposite things about God and the mormon church at other times. The blubbering was a bit much. I actually could not believe what I was listening to. A blubbering grown man who knows the truth.

It makes me wonder if he is a diabolical, conniving person who hates the mormon church far more than anyone here. He appears willing to stand up and act like a blubbering fool for the benefit of the only people who would appreciate the blubbering - mormons. He knows he can get away with this outlandish b.s. right now because the mormon church doesn't want bad press - right now.

With all due respect to those critical of John Dehlin, here are a few more things I will point out in his defense. Even if John seems at times to be urging people to stay in (urging may be too strong of a word), I think John and Mormon Stories will have a net effect of more people leaving Mormonism. He openly talks about some very controversial issues, resulting in TBM’s finding out things they might not have discovered on their own. As we know, some things like the Book of Abraham or polyandry can be a crack in the dam that eventually open flood gates. Like so many of you, these things were a catalyst for me leaving, but I didn’t find out about them until I was 40. It is good to have people like John on the inside talking about these things. It is like a Trojan horse. I think it is safe to say that John would like to see the church get to the point where controversial topics can be discussed openly in the foyer without whispering. He certainly knows what effect that would have, so I don’t see him as trying very hard to keep people in. I think it is a good thing for TBM’s to know that there are doubters and non-believers in the church that are open yet not excommunicated. This might make them brave enough to address some of the things they have on their proverbial shelf. If TBM’s see someone like John that has lost their core beliefs but still seems to be doing relatively OK in the church they might conclude that the consequences of exploring doubts may not be as bad as they had imagined. Also, some people just need a road map for leaving. We only get the opportunity to make our exit once, and it is a good thing to try to do it right, whatever that might mean to each individual. Some of the interviews on Mormon Stories are courageous examples of how to leave in a healthy way. I personally would have benefited from seeing some of these at the time I was in the process of leaving. Finally, the Mormon Stories social networking has been a good thing. I personally know people who were in desperate need of a support network that now have one. There is a need for many flavors of support groups, and think John has made significant and important contributions to fulfilling that need.

More power to him if he enjoys being in the limelight, which I suspect is what's happening. Being that guy would never work for me. I'd feel like a hypocrite. I just want to be free of religion. I feel no particular need to be a revolutionary within it. Maybe he enjoys the excitement of walking that thin line, tweaking the brethern, seeing how close he can get to being exed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2012 10:04PM by rationalguy.

I have really enjoyed all of his podcasts, that I have listened to, but this one I couldn't finish. I was shocked that he was crying and talking about TSCC the way he was. It was really hard to listen to it, so I had to turn it off. I just don't get his attachment to the church. I was also under the impression that he was further along in his journey out of Mormonism.

If you listen to his interview on Mormon Expression it almost seems like a completely different person. In that interview he basically says he doubts if there is a God at all and he seems very calm about it all. In this talk he says one of the reasons he stays in the church is because he feels the presence of God there. It is really hard to figure out where he is on his journey out. Maybe that is because he isn't actually on a journey out. He really is planning to stay in and try to change it into the Mormon Universalist church.

John Dehlin was the person who opened the exit door for me.

However, I view him as someone who's standing sentinel at the exit door. He's neither going in full fledged or coming out. He's just the door man. For that, I will be forever grateful.

He handed me the exit program with a list of topics that would be coming on the exit stage.

That being said, I don't know how he stays at the exit door without following all the signs. Maybe someday we'll know the whole story. For now, he's where he is. I don't understand it, but I would like to thank him still the same.

Witty, wrong place :(
There are so many people that have
a deep seated need
to play follow the leader..
I wonder how many fence sitters, NOM's and such,
who would follow him over.

Very interesting....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2012 11:04PM by freenow.

when I first started to question I landed at stayLDS first and read and listened to everything there.

It is an interesting idea, stay in the church for WHATEVER reason you have. How to maintain a temple recommend without feeling like you are lying. How to appreciate the good of the church and ignore the bad. Some apologist stuff to make it more palatable.

The thing is... for me, it seemed just too much like when people say nice things about Hitler (he did build the autobahn)... it just didn't add up.

Since the cult strongly dissaudes the members from getting information outside the ward walls, Dehlin is taking the news to them, which may be one of the few opportunities they have to hear something truthful.

As some posters have said, Dehlin helped them out of the church. That's not a bad thing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2012 11:34AM by canadianfriend.

Personally, I believe it is up to each individual. I won't say if someone should leave or that they should stay. Maybe JD and others can promote change from within. I doubt it, but why stop him from trying.

With that said, there have been many people attempting to reform (and talk about history) for years. It's not just JD. He seems to get a lot of credit, however.

Crikey listening to that was bonkers- I generally like John Dehlin. He's not the sharpest chisel in the bag but I love that he lets his interviewees have hours, not minutes.

But ... I found this difficult to listen to. He does seem to be a sensitive sort - though the lds church rewards easy tears rather than intellect, and it is hard to free yourself from that when you've been brought up with it. It took me a while to realise my 'acute sensitivity' was learnt posturing rather than spirituality. John's shtick goes over well because it's the comfort of cultural recognition.

TSCC has no sense of humour. They cultivate needless drama over apostasy which questioning and ex mormons sometimes help fuel. John, lighten up. I've always thought the best way to not let them have power of you is to answer with a belly laugh. No-one died, your children don't have rickets. Move along, nothing to see. My dad had a secret bottle of Jim Beam in his garden shed. There are lots of mormons, good people, caring people, who take a pragmatic approach to doctrine, they just don't make dramarama about it. You can bet the apostles do, though I don't include them in the caring and good sections.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2012 12:14PM by austrobrit.

I want to agree with the person who said that Dehlin must hate the Mormon church more than anyone here, but I don't get that feeling. It's like Dehlin is following the Utah cultural herd but troubled by his intellect and his conscience at the same time. However, sometimes he will cling to falsehoods seemingly to keep himself in the holding pattern he's in. I had a brief debate with him on Facebook last week over the use of the term "Same Sex Attraction" which he claimed was used by mainstream psychologists and a better, more generic term for LGBT people. I didn't know what to say to that. This year it's "Why I stay." Last year he and his wife had stopped attending and were consulting with a GA possibly thinking about resigning. I don't understand the problem.

I think Dehlin needs to extract himself from Utah culture and get out into the world a bit more and experience what people really think about Mormonism. Dehlin's stubborn adherence to Mormonism may seem noble in Utah, but it looks like a bad habit from my standpoint.

"Same-sex attraction?" Mainstream? My dog's arse, with apologies to my dog. That is a code phrase for people who advocate reparative therapy, standard language of "Christian" outfits who believe in the god cure for LGBT people.

This spring Dehlin publicly spoke about two LGBT clients, coming dangerously close to the line of compromising their confidentiality by discussing details about his clients' struggles with their orientation and their religion. When I heard him say that, I winced inside on behalf of his clients.

Given that and his published writings and the inconsistency of his thinking--and knowing that he thinks "same-sex attraction" is a commonly used term, I would question his capacity to act effectively as a therapist on behalf of an LGBT client.

And if he uses his Mo-cachet to promote himself as someone who works sensitively with LGBT people, I would definitely not recommend him to anyone in his professional capacity.

Bottomline, the church is all he knows. It's his way of saying I"m comfortable here and I'm afraid of what might happen if I leave. There's the possibility of family pressure, you know the usual guilt trip spiel the church teaches its members to spew when someone leaves. Mormonism, like Islam and Judaism, are both religion and culture for those BIC, perhaps he believes it's unpatriotic of him to turn his back on Moism.