I wonder. There is good reason to think that Young actually believed that Smith was a true prophet. The Mormons under Young developed a very, very strong belief. Perhaps Young's sincere belief rubbed off on the members.

Then there's the matter of the subsequent leaders. Was John Taylor in on the con? The prophets I've known, Kimball, Benson, Hunter, Hinckley, and Monson, have all appeared to be sincere. At some point the prophets had to change from con artists to sincere believers. John Taylor knew Smith personally. Woodruff probably did too, and perhaps Snow did. Did Smith fool all of them? If he did, it is likely that he fooled Young as well.

Yes, Young had his bad points. But that doesn't mean he wasn't a believer. A lot of people have weird personalities. It seems like they could not possibly behave the way they do and still believe, but they are believers regardless. Human beings are so stupid, bigoted, hypocritical, ignorant, and all the rest, and yet many of them are still true believers. So I think Young really did believe.

I think BY totally knew it was a con. I think he was better at the game than JS because he didn't have any delusions about being a prophet. And he probably didn't have JS's craving to be liked. He was a pragmatic dictator. He saw JS & Co. started a good scam and then wrestled control of it and took it to the next level.

Since BY, I think the presidents have been a combination of believers and scammers -- scammers in the sense all leaders create an image of the institution and themselves that is only vaguely similar to reality -- an image that makes the followers happy. And what the leaders believe in is that they're somehow divinely entitled to be leaders, that God approves of their decisions and actions, that even their unholy acts are for the good of the followers.

If you look at the various restoration, reorganization, fundamentalist, like RLDS, Bichertonites, Strangites, Hedrickites, FLDS, UAB, and all those many groups that popped up, splintered off, disappeared were all pretty much true believers.

But who was right? Any of them? None of them? All of them?

If you answer other than "none of them" then you must ask yourself which one is the most suitable to what you think is right.

And that goes for all those subsequent leaders you mentioned too, right up to Monson.

LOVE THAT, SOOOOO TRUE! It's all about the appearance!

Yes. I believe that when Briggy discovered how he could have the masses eating right out of his hand like the good little sheep they were, that he could also extract money from them without a fight, he went full throttle with it. He went as far as to drag them all to hell, as it were, out into the desert and lord it over the honest in heart. He behaved exactly how religious charlatans would behave, no surprise there.

He was, however, inept in the doctrine department (Adam-God, Blood Atonement, etc). Totally inferior to Joe Smith in this. He screwed with the sheeples heads with anything and everything that came out of his pie hole that to this day LDS, Inc. refers to his pronouncements "speaking as a man", a.k.a. wholesale BS winging it big time.

charles, buddhist punk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> He was, however, inept in the doctrine department
> (Adam-God, Blood Atonement, etc). Totally inferior
> to Joe Smith in this. He screwed with the sheeples
> heads with anything and everything that came out
> of his pie hole that to this day LDS, Inc. refers
> to his pronouncements "speaking as a man", a.k.a.
> wholesale BS winging it big time.

I think the church's problem with Brigham Young is you can't believe what he said and at the same time assimilate into the mainstream culture--and from the time the U.S. Government essentially shut down the Mormon Church until today, it has been in the process of mainstreaming. There is a bigger share of the market in the middle rather than towards the extremes. So, "We are not weird," says Gordon Hinckley.

It is harder to do with Smith what the church has done to Young, because he was the founder, but JS has been plenty sanitized for the Mormon masses. He also didn't put out the sheer volume of nonsense that successor did. He didn't have as much time. Smith also had to content with an environment in which he was more often directly challenge. That probably kept things tamped down a little.

Anybody who makes it to the top KNOWS it's a con.

+1

For sure they know, because then they know God ain't talkin' to them! I think that is why Tommy always looks confused. I wonder if he really thought he start having chats with God.

I don't know but I almost think that Joseph Smith believed it in the end. Of course it all started out pretty sketchy but never underestimate the ego and the ability of people to delude themselves.

I'm sure at first it was, wow, I can't believe I got away with it, followed later by, well, maybe there is something to this after all.

I think both JS and BY had big enough egos to think that their every thought was God talking to them directly.

I think that JS believed he was a prophet. However I do not think BY did. My impression of BY is that of a power hungry tyrrant who saw himself as supreme ruler of a theocracy, but I do not think he believed it for a second.

I firmly believe that briggy-poo saw this as his ticket to be the Big Man of Campus. King. Above the Law.

And I wish I could find the article now, but some time back someone posted a quote from the Deseret News after BYs death- it stated that the things he preached and taught was a "perfect farrago of nonsense".

I think BY realised it was a con and then wanted in. If not, he would not have become the wealthy tyrant that he became.

Read about Martha Brotherton. That should tell you all you need to know about BY and the con. At least JS was charismatic. At least JS's ass was getting hauled into court regularly.

BY was nothing more than a crass mob boss. He didn't have the legal restrictions of JS because he moved his "kingdom" beyond the reach of the state authorities and ruled with an iron fist. Unlike JS, he didn't care what anyone thought of him. He focused on power and wealth and got them any way he could (others' wages?). Read Mormon Battalion for an earlier example.

Just look at his flagrant disregard for the illegality of polygamy, not to mention his neglect and contempt for whatever wife wasn't his favorite at the moment. There is some indication that BY may have been involved in JS's brother's death (to ensure his sole reign). Also, it's possible that BY himself may have been done in by one of his wives.

Read Wife #19. A mafia king was mild-mannered compared to him. And, although the guilt for MMM fell on Lee, BY had to have instigated it. I can't come to any other conclusion.

Yep, he was all in like them all.

I think that their ego gets so juiced up with the power and admiration, that they're brains are fried, because of all the rationalization they do. They must believe that they are a prophet, they promote themselves as a prophet, and as people believe they are a prophet, it reconfirms to themselves that they are a prophet.

Their ability to have integrity and logic is gone. They are consumed with the ego. They get such a high from the power, they believe their delusions. Everyone around them is for them to use. They use and use and use and use others, because only they matter to themselves. They are devoid of any empathy whatsoever. They can't possible see anothers point of view. Everything they do is right, at least they convince themselves of it.

They have a mental illness, and will harm those that they have a relationship with or have power over.

I think maybe he knew it was a con, but he rationalized it in his mind to make it real. But that doesn't really matter anyways, only their power over the cult and others, eg his 55 wives. He really believed he needed 55 wives. And there were 55 women that believed they needed a charismatic leader as a husband to share.

They use and use and use others because if they stopped to consider their actions, they would be consumed by self-hatred that would eat them alive...

They must continue the dance at all costs and hope the music drowns out their inner demons...

What a great post 6 iron- think you might be right on there! They tell us nurses in school narcisissm is the one personality disorder that is never ever fixable. The worst one to have to live with, because the narcicist NEVER EVER changes.

Remember you have to hold the mark after the con.
The mark can NEVER know he or she has been taken or the con is broken.
The true game is never getting the mark's confidence.
The true game is giving the mark your confidence so the mark will trust you and come after your offering.

I don't whether BY was a sociopath with a few narcissistic and even some humanitarian tendencies, or a narcissist with a whole lot of sociopathy in his makeup...

Cabdriver Philosophical Conclusion: Brigham Young was an evil, evil man...

Best I could do, along with a retreat to my old platitude, "sane people don't react well to insanity."

I know from my own experiences in addiction that the process of "denial" operates to "shut out" a whole lot of one's actions one would rather not remember from conscious awareness... For a time anyway, but then outside elements must be introduced to medicate the pain...

I'm certain BY had similar elements within his pscyhopathology...

How much he rationalized his excesses, I don't know. I'm sure he was "drunk with power" much of the time in terms of the adulation he enjoyed from the people... I'm guessing his wives fed into that one as well... And his quest for money and success as well...

His rationalizations couldn't have been that sophisticated; he was a shrewd man, yes, but not an educated one... He may well have been a superstitious Vermont craftsman who was lazy when confronted with physical work and sought out the power and validation that JS and Mormonism offered... When crises arose, he rose to the challenge, filling leadership voids as needed...

Later in life? Crazy yes, but a crazy crafty old fox... Will Bagley pointed out to me once that Young was never comfortable with the "mantle of Joseph" and his insecurities doubtless contributed to his micromanagement of the theocracy in Utah...

Those of us who've been students of literature have witnessed how the great writers have attempted to grapple with human evil... Shakespeare has Claudius as a "bloat king" (meaning he had to drown his conscience in alcohol), Mark Twain had his "Duke and Dauphin" who were thorough scoundrels; others, well? It has always been a challenge for those who would seek to capture such characters accurately...

Is that what we're trying to do here? We are in good company, but it is likely to be a particularly difficult quest...

And, Cabbie I think BY's pragmatism may have displaced his charisma, if he ever had any of that. JS's claims were so outlandishly overwhelming in their scope, it boggles the mind. JS had such unparalleled chutzpah. It's like the politician who commits a crime and gets away with it because it was so colossal, that no one can wrap their head around it. If it were just an infraction, he would have gotten nailed.

I suspect JS was charming when it suited him. I suspect BY was as charming as a railroad spike. Brute intimidation was more his style. He wasn't the "fanciful dreamer" JS was.

There's a piece written by a great-great-aunt of mine (my great-grandmother's sister; g-grandma died when I was 12) describing the time my g-g-grandmother went looking for her husband--my g-g-grandfather, who worked for BY directly--and encountered BY in the Beehive House...

Both my mother and I agreed from our perspective over a hundred years later that BY hit on her in pretty shameless fashion...

Well, some women are attracted to powerful men, and as you noted, some were coerced into polygamous marriages...

BY did have the talent for addressing the concerns and fears of mainstream 19th Century Mormons... Yes, he was jealous of others, such as Orson Pratt, who were better orators than he was... But he fueled the fears of renewed persecution and fostered a distrust of the Federal Government...

I find the relationship between Col. Thomas Kane (the real historical one, not the gonzo who used to post here under that pseudonym) and Young interesting... Kane strikes me as a reasonably capable individual (driven by fragile health and living in the shadow of an older brother), and his abolitionist views are certainly praiseworthy...

So, I guess the conclusion is he was fooled by Mormon piety for some reason... Perhaps among the first; certainly not the last (see Shipps, Jan). Young's overt racism should've repelled him, but he may have been blind to it...

One fact about Young that is obvious, however, is that he was a master of "plausible deniability." Will Bagley noted to me that he learned the practice of Joseph Smith of always having a scribe take down his words; this served the function of not giving ammunition to his enemies...

My story in a nutshell: "fooled by Mormon piety for some reason" (and "see [chief non-Mormon apologist] Shipps, Jan"). Haha. Nice one.

The Mormons are a pious lot of louses aren't they? The tears, the righteousness, the catch in the throat over some inane sentimentalism--nauseates me and fills me with loathing.

Absolutely he was in on the con. Had he been a twoo believer, he would have respected The General's wish to have his son succeed him. However, Bigot had spent years at the feet of The Master, watching Joe revel in unlimited sex, money and power, and was determined to get some of that for himself.

I remember reading Quinn's Extensions of Power..I remember him mentioning that BY was very frustrated that God did not speak to him the way that he "spoke" to JS..Leads me to beleive that he beleived it enough that he was pissed that he was not getting any revelations....

This is what I recall as well, how disturbed he was for a time that God was not talking to him like he did to Joseph. Then, one day, all of that changed and that is where much of that disgusting garbage in the J of D comes from. I have to wonder: did he at first believe, then when God gave him no revelations did he figure out that it was all a con and decide "I'm goin' for it", and just started making up the stuff himself? The things he says in the J of D are crazy: he taught blood atonement and adam/god in there as revelations from God from the pulpit to his people at conferences or whatever they were called . I nearly died when I read the J of D. Of course, it has many authors, but lots of it came straight from BY's mouth.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/25/2010 09:22PM by think4u.

Maybe you are right. But Quinn is a true believer, and may have nuanced his words to reflect his belief. (I don't have the book, and would love to see a quote). RFM posters who know Quinn have said he is a believer still. I assume Quinn believes Joe was a true revelator.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2010 12:08AM by hello.

he would have many other reasons to keep things going. He was obviously gifted at governing (in a Machiavellian sort of way). He may have cared about the body of people he governed. He certainly benefited personally from both the power and the wealth he amassed--he may have seen it as evidence of both his ability and the rightness of this faith and belief in his calling.

So whether Brigham Young was in on the con or not, he found reasons to stay in power and govern. All politicians and leaders have reasons to keep doing what they do, regardless of what gave them their start. May of the reasons are self-reinforcing and self-perpetuating. I can go with it either way.

Smith on the other hand is clearer to me. He most certainly started as a con man. Whether or not he convinced himself of his sincerity along the way--maybe. But again, once he got a following, he not only influenced his followers, but they influenced him to stay "in-role" and created expectations and demands for *him* to meet. They fed his self-image and he had to keep them interested and engaged--much like celebrities today. I think this was a major force in Smith coming up with new revelations, making major changes in doctrine and practice, etc.--to keep people interested. He didn't have the skills Brigham Young did in governing, however, and had Smith survived to go West, I don't thing the Mormon Church would have become the force it did.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/25/2010 09:22PM by robertb.

I loved this post, and all of the thoughts people had on it. I am going to post something similar I have always wondered about. Please tell me what you all think. I really do want to hear.

Brigham Young was too far invested to quit. Brigham and most mormon leaders would be nothing without the church.-

What I respect about Martha Beck and Fawn Brodie is that though they each wrote one book condemning the LDS church; it didnt consume them as to becoming career apostates. They write/wrote many books having no connection to mormonism.

If only MOs knew the implications of being 'too far invested' to tell the truth....

the leaders' Main Dish is the power & adoration they receive; most are smart enough that given other things 'equal', they could have prospered in the private sector.