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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: December 25, 2010 09:05PM

I saw the thread about anonymous axing the question about Hitler and Darwinism and thought I'd throw in my 2 pennies. I'm not sure if I got the gist of the questions because it was a little confusing. But I'm going to give it a shot.

Hitler absolutely believed that the Germans (more specifically "Aryans") to be the master race. However, this master race was simply something that Hitler liked. There was no science, never has been any science, and never will be any science to justify why blond hair, blue eyes, and fair skin is "superior" in any fashion. Hitler just preferred these traits for whatever reason he did. His scientists absolutely performed horrific experiments with anyone who was in concentration camps. This involved everything from experiments on skin removal for pain and death, to trying to crossbreed Jews with animals.

These experimentations and the Eugenics is pretty hard to quite mingle with what people might call "Darwinism." I'm going to go out on a limb and probably assume that "Darwinism" is actually inferred to be the law of natural selection. Often people try to use the terms interchangeably even though they don't quite make sense. And I assume this because "Social Darwinism" is usually the term for "natural selection (the survival of the fittest) in social terms."

Whether Hitler believed in this kind of "Social Darwinism" would be difficult to prove. He had Darwin banned, he was a "practicing Catholic," but also loved the occult and European mythology. Debates rage on whether or not Hitler should even be called a Catholic. And his hatred of the Jews and inferior races ran so deep that even had Darwin's ideas not precluded him, he'd still most likely felt the same about the "inferior races" as he already did. Racism and Ethnocentrism has been around for as long as humans have been around. There are no evidences within Hitler's writings that show a direct result of Darwin's ideas to Hitler's "final solution." The only people bring up is the idea of "social Darwinism" that many capitalists during the time (especially in America) promoted that paralleled the idea of natural selection in a human social environment. What's interesting is actually reading Darwin's writings. Darwin never advocated anything close to Genocide or Eugenics at all. Yes, people can twist any idea and pervert it to any extreme, but is that really the fault of the original writer? Capitalism, Socialism, Christianity have all been perverted to extremes. Is this what destroys the original idea?

The answer of course is, "no." Each idea rises or falls on its own merits, and Darwin's theories of Evolution and Natural Selection have been verified over and over and over again by scientific data.

However, putting these same ideas into contexts to which they don't belong is fraught with peril. Yes, some of the parts of Natural Selection work well in Market Theory; but only some, because the two are not exactly synonymous. They never were meant to be. Darwin did not propose a "Theory of Everything" so to criticize him within those contexts is a complete mis-understanding of what Darwin actually did.

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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: December 25, 2010 09:05PM


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Posted by: O2 ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 10:31AM

Evolution through natural selection has nothing to do with eugenics or a dog-eat-dog, survivor-take-all mentality. There is actually substantial evidence that altruism is adaptive and is likely to be selected for over the course of many generations.

Natural selection is actually about probabilities for reproductive opportunities and not about annihilating "the weak." Hitler's plan would almost certainly be doomed to fail in the long term. There are numerous factors that influence adaptability, health, and success in perpetuating the species. Such a narrow (and bigoted) approach as specified by Hitler would likely result in also selecting for weaknesses that are artifacts or covariates with the specifically selected traits.

It is precisely the situation that occurs with naturally selected field crops and animals. The result are organisms that have a few very desirable traits but that are often vulnerable in disconcerting ways. Viruses, bacteria, and parasites often then evolve to exploit those weaknesses with devastating results. Diversity is actually very adaptive and necessary for a species to have a pool of genotypes from which to select when stressed by the environment.

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Posted by: voltaire ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 10:49AM

Hitler and the Nazis didn't embrace Darwinism, neither (clinically-speaking) did they embraced Social Darwinism (and no, "Darwinism" and "Social Darwinism" are not the same thing). What they did do was synthesize several concepts of racial and national superiority and fold them into a socio-scientific theory now rarely-studied in America: eugenics (Americans find it embarrassing that so many of us embraced it in the past and we find it even more embarrassing that we as a nation continue to institutionally practice certain aspects of it, so in our guilt we pretend it doesn't exist). Elaborating on works by Oswald Manuel Arnold Gottfried Spengler (29 May 1880 – 8 May 1936) and Ernst Heinrich Philipp August Haeckel (February 16, 1834 – August 9, 1919), upon whose ideas they built their racial policies, the Nazis put into practice eugenics, which they called "racial hygiene": attempting to artificially control and accelerate what they perceived as an evolutionary process in the development of humans. The difference between proponents of eugenics and proponents of Social Darwinism is simple but concise: it is the difference between artificially interfering in naturally-occurring human physical and social processes and not interfering.

Lest we get lost in the Holocaust again (note to "anon": if you're referring to the one in which 11-17 million Jews, Romani, Soviet prisoners of war, Polish and Soviet civilians, homosexuals, people with disabilities, Jehovah's Witnesses and other political and religious opponents lost their lives, then the first letter of the word is always capitalized: "Holocaust," not "holocaust"), don't worry: the English-speaking world had their own versions of the above-mentioned characters. Anglo-Saxon eugenic theories were derived from the works of, among others, the Reverend Thomas Robert Malthus FRS (13 February 1766 – 23 December 1834), and Darwin's half-cousin Sir Francis Galton (16 February 1822 – 17 January 1911)
(for a good short example of 19th c. eugenic rhetoric, read his "Africa for the Chinese" letter to the Times: http://galton.org/letters/africa-for-chinese/AfricaForTheChinese.htm ). There were also plenty of other prominent Europeans and Americans who enthusiastically embraced eugenics, many of whom we claim to respect today for various other reasons. Most European nations and the United States instituted at least some eugenically-inspired policies into law. Wikipedia's article on Eugenics is not comprehensive, but it is good enough for beginners. In other words, if one is going to give Hitler and the Nazis their well-deserved lumps, in all fairness one ought to look around and consider that they weren't alone in it. To do otherwise is disingenuous.

"Survival of the fittest" was coined, not by Darwin, but by Herbert Spencer (27 April 1820 – 8 December 1903) in his book "Principles of Biology, Volume 1," pp. 444–5. The term has been mis-attributed ever since. Even though Darwin later referred to it in letters and used it, he himself had problems with its non-specificity.

It's also important to remember that all these men were laboring under the handicap of an incomplete body of information: the sciences of genetics, evolution, anthropology, sociology, etc., were all still in their earliest infancy in the 19th century. We have the after-the-fact luxury of damning them or praising them, but in the big picture one really ought to do so based on their own merits and failures. In the end, all of them were brilliant men and none of them were as wholly evil as Adolph Hitler and his gang of Nazi thugs. Damning Darwin's research and Darwinian evolution for Hitler's policies is about as silly as it gets. Using incorrect terminology when trying to sound intelligent only makes one an ignoramus. Persistence in remaining both silly and ignorant is a sin.

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Posted by: anon ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 08:00PM

If he wrote this guy Gall about how much a "contribution" he was through Phrenology TOOS must have already come out-now this to me says it was past 1859...Darwin was what age?He was fifty and still praising the work of Gall?

Why-doe's this not contradict Mr. Bensons assertion Darwin gave it up completely by twenty?


Why would Darwin "post-up" Gall and the FALSE science of phrenology when Darwin had made such significant progress in natural selection etc?

I believe at the time the world did not have many answers for brain function and Darwin was more than interested himself.

53

The following search terms have been highlighted: phrenology
out the geological structure of a country. I discovered, though unconsciously & insensibly, that the pleasure of observing & reasoning was a much higher one than that of skill & sport. (a)

That my mind became developed through my pursuits during the voyage, is rendered probable by a remark made by my father, who was the most acute observer whom I ever saw, of a sceptical disposition, & far from being a believer in phrenology; for on first seeing me after the voyage, he turned round to my sisters & exclaimed, "Why, the shape of his head is quite altered."

To return to the voyage. On September 11th (1831) I paid a flying visit with Fitz-Roy to the Beagle at Plymouth. Thence to Shrewsbury to wish my father & sisters a long farewell. On Oct. 24th, I took up my residence at Plymouth, & remained there until December 27th

Even while on the boat for five years he spoke of Phrenology and in reference to his fathers lack thereof of belief in aid false science.Not citing that as evidence-I am just saying that was

http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?viewtype=text&itemID=CUL-DAR26.1-121&keywords=phrenology&pageseq=93

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Posted by: resipsaloquitur ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 08:12PM

I'm a pretty smart guy, and I cannot understand anything this guy says.

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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 08:25PM

Anon, I'm trying to help with some information. But I have no idea what you are talking about.

And at this point, I really don't get what your point is. Darwin might have been interested in phrenology so.....???

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Posted by: OnceMore ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 09:05PM

Yes, why is anon focusing on the issue of Phrenology?

I think anon may have unwittingly outed himself on the previous thread. Let's review anon's post in which I think he spelled out his real reasons more or less by accident. All protestations aside, anon is not interested in a logical discussion, nor in inconvenient-to-him/her history, nor in Darwin's writings. He/she is intent on throwing doubt, (any kind of doubt, no matter how specious, will do), on the validity of the ToE. Anon's revealing post is pasted in below:

"Once more [sic]...heres how I see your agenda.

"The motives are, most commonly:
1. Degrade god in order to upgrade Darwin.
2. Revive fears of god in order to send the sheeple scurrying to secularism(because its safe there as China has proven to the Tibetans).
3. Sneak anti-scientific thought processes in by the back door (i.e., with God we're all Hitler or Stalin or coldly robotic or committed to killing the unfit, therefore we should set up a government as close to a theocracy as possible, for racesake)
4. Discredit a creator in general by focusing on an incomplete or long-since-amended component of Darwin's theories.
5. Prove that scientific process,not- emotion-based "knowledge" (preferably science-based) makes the writer(once more) smarter than God and able to see through the wicked, reductionist nature of "God."

"I am not sure if any of you know that reading is fundamental and I did tell you geniuses I believe in evolution but that does not change Darwins lifelong involvement in a false science.

"Steve didn't you do some posts on MLK's doctoral thesis being (sp) plagerized?

"P-S- your right phrenology is so very racist and pathetically unscientific!

"Can you send me a link to your MLK rants they so remind me of another of your relatives racist rants."
---------

And there you have it folks, the real anon in the spotlight.

The post of mine to which anon was replying is pasted in below:

"Attributing to Darwin beliefs that he either did not hold, or that he clearly discarded, is usually accompanied by a thinly-veiled ulterior motive.

"The motives are, most commonly:
1. Degrade Darwin in order to upgrade God(s).
2. Revive fears of secularism in order to send the sheeple scurrying to God(s).
3. Sneak right-wing theocracy in by the back door (i.e., without God we're all Hitler or Stalin or coldly robotic or committed to killing the unfit, therefore we should set up a government as close to a theocracy as possible, forgodsake)
4. Discredit science in general by focusing on an incomplete or long-since-amended component of Darwin's theories.
5. Prove that heartfelt, emotion-based "knowledge" (preferably god-based) makes the writer smarter than Darwin and able to see through the wicked, reductionist nature of science.

"That these kinds of arguments are represented by hundreds of thousands of websites is cause for dismay.

"The amount of incest going on among the websites troubles me. They rape each other's content and images without so much as a by-your-leave, and have no qualms about repeating lies and half-truths while engaging in exactly zero investigation of original sources.

"It's part of the dumbing down of far too great a proportion of the human population. They have elevated ignorance to the level of virtue

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Posted by: a different anon ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 08:25PM

I'm puzzled by anon's emphasis on phrenology and Darwin. The actual influence of scientific racism came with Samuel G. Morton's work known as craniometry. Anon, are you trying to overlap these two?

Darwin's theory of a single origin of all species conflicted with the multiple origin theories proposed by followers of Morton.

In that regard, Darwin's theory was a show stopper to the scientific racism based on skulls.

Why the interest in phrenology and Darwin? There is a much deeper story to Darwin, one that supports science against racism.

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Posted by: anon ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 08:31PM


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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 08:34PM

a different anon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Why the interest in phrenology and Darwin? There
> is a much deeper story to Darwin, one that
> supports science against racism.


Ya, I'm kind of puzzled with the Benson thread with this anon as well. The whole things seems to be a rather arcane argument over a rather minor point of intellectual biography. As raptorjesus said, "Darwin might have been interested in phrenology so.....???" I'm at a loss to the significance of anon's point, even if s/he were correct.

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Posted by: Anon ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 08:40PM

If Darwin was a believer until death it would be interesting to know. While I am not saying HIS specific interest in the false science was of a racist intent.....the entire premise of Phrenology is devaluing human beings.

I really think he believed in phrenology for the duration of his existence.

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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 09:07PM

Many many many intellectual Victorians were at least interested in Phrenology. I don't know much about Darwin but I do know a lot about George Eliot. She believed in it. So did her friend Herbert Spencer, as did Auguste Comte, the founder of the now debunked (almost, alas) Postivism, whom had a great deal of influence upon George Eliot. But I fail to see how it matters...

Phrenology aspired to be a natural science. It relied upon observation and classification. And far from being premised upon "devaluing human beings", it was premised upon a simple idea that bumps on the head correspond to a person's psychology. Well, upon observation and classification, it turned out to be wrong, like so many like attempts.

The Victorians were a rather hubristic people, like all people living at the centre of Empire at its zenith. They postulated and explored and experimented with all kinds of attempts at a grand synthesis of knowledge. But it's very clear that the one idea to come through that time as "true" is Evolution.

I'm rambling. I just don't see the significance of Darwin's belief or non-belief in Phrenology. It's indicative of Darwin's time and place, but you even admit that it is not of Darwin himself. So why the interest?

Anon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If Darwin was a believer until death it would be
> interesting to know. While I am not saying HIS
> specific interest in the false science was of a
> racist intent.....the entire premise of Phrenology
> is devaluing human beings.
>
> I really think he believed in phrenology for the
> duration of his existence.

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Posted by: a different anon ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 09:18PM

Anon said: "If Darwin was a believer until death it would be interesting to know. While I am not saying HIS specific interest in the false science was of a racist intent.....the entire premise of Phrenology is devaluing human beings. I really think he believed in phrenology for the duration of his existence."

Perhaps he did. I don't know. I do know that the works of Samuel G. Morton were contrary to Darwin's single origin theory. That is where the evil was. Phrenology was less influential.

When it comes to the actual racism in the United States, look no further than Secretary of War John C. Calhoun, who did follow Morton.

Even before Morton's works, Thomas L. McCenney, the first Superintendent of Indian Affairs was fired for daring to argue that the Indian was the intellectual and moral equal to the whites. Morton's writings gave the illusion of scientific support to those involved in opposing McCenney.

Then there was Jefferson Davis, another Secretary of War who's writings on racial purity came long before Hitler's. Davis went on to become the president of the Confederacy. Davis also held to a multiple creation.

These were the folks who's racism was influenced by Samuel G. Morton. Phrenology was only a minor thing. The collection of American Indian skulls for support of Morton's theories was even ordered by the U.S.

Yet Darwin's single origin theory contradicted Morton's followers of multiple creations.

Even if Darwin was racist with phrenology, his works contributed much more to argue against the ideas which brought the horrid outcomes of racism.

Much of Hitler's inspiration came from the U.S. treatment of the American Indian. This treatment was based on ideas such as Morton's, not Darwin.

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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 09:46PM

a different anon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Much of Hitler's inspiration came from the U.S.
> treatment of the American Indian. This treatment
> was based on ideas such as Morton's, not Darwin.

That is a good point and is too often neglected. Another fact that is too often neglected is just how anti-semetic the U.S. was pre-WWII. Nowadays it's sometimes made out that poor ol' Henry Ford and the oh so selfish Isolationists were the only Americans with deep-seated anti-semetism.

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Posted by: Rebeckah ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 09:20PM

My father is a brilliant chemist who works with polyelastomers (don't even know if I spelled that right) but he's also a Catholic and believes in going to confession. I think it's moronic but it doesn't change his genius when it comes to mixing together compounds and coming up with coatings, paints, paste, drywall compounds and more that are tough or resist sun damage or don't take freezing damage or whatever else he's working towards.

Your point is non-existant. You seem rather foolish to me.

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Posted by: anon ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 08:29PM

http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?viewtype=text&itemID=A179&keywords=phrenology&pageseq=367

[page] 318

The following search terms have been highlighted: phrenology
charmed afresh. There was in Wallace's nature a beauty that will shine when the splendor of Agassiz and the greatness of Lyell are dim. He never laid claim to more honor than the Linnæan paper gave him, and so gained a higher kind of fame than scientific discovery can bring.

He was right in giving thanks that fate had not made him the leader of the evolution army. For such a part he lacked every qualification. He had small sagacity for sifting false men from true ones, small endurance of the hardship of long-continued research, small sense of strategy in the polemics of the biological war. He was not even a reliable reasoner: his theory of natural selection was the only case in which he showed acuteness for large principles. His other attempts—not any one of them, but all taken together—will show the untrustworthiness of his mind.

1. In his youth he became a convert to phrenology; he placidly and unwaveringly held to this faith all his life.

2. He was a convert to Robert Owen's "philosophy of human nature."

3. He believed that an almanac-maker, Murphy, had predicted a whole year's weather in advance; he argued that "the larger phases of the weather are to a considerable extent dependent on the relative positions of the sun and moon."

4. He felt that he had a cure for "the all-embracing system of land-robbery" that had been in vogue since the days of Henry VIII.

5. He was "struck amazingly" by Williams's Fuel of the Sun, which taught that the sun maintained its heat by coming into contact with a "space-atmosphere." Wallace considered the book "beautifully worked out and quite intelligible."

6. Of Darwin's "Pangenesis" (see page 348) he

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Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 09:20PM

The quote you give is referring to Alfred Russel Wallace, not Darwin.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 10:34PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2010 10:34PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Rebeckah ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 09:21PM

What does all of this have to do with anything?

Are you a fan of phrenology and trying to win converts?

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 10:28PM

Here, once again, is a run-down of all the evidence against your "case" that you continue to ignore:

As prominent as phrenology had become in England during Darwin's day, he did not devote significant, long-term time to, or fundamental respect for, its race-based features:

“ . . .[T]he theory is [of phrenology] is almost never mentioned by Darwin, who did not discuss it, nor mentioned in any of the two editions of the 'Descent of Man' the experiments which by then had demonstrated that some movements hitherto attributed to free will could be produced by localised electrical simulation of the brain (although a section on the brain was added to the second edition in 1874).”

(“Darwin and Phrenology,” published by “The Darwin Human Nature Project,” 24 November 2010, at: http://darwinhumannature.wordpress.com/2010/11/24/darwin-and-phrenology/)


Indeed, science journalist and author David Quammen's impressively detailed examination of the first edition text of Darwin's "Origin of Species" offers virtually no reference to the race-poisoned doctrines of phrenology.

Rather, phrenology-backer Watson is mentioned by Darwin within the context of the latter's scientific views on “the “nature and relations of [plant] species” (p. 65); on "acclimatization" (pp. 155, 357); on "range of varieties of British plants" (pp. 56-57, 68, 70, 359), and on "rarity of intermediate varieties" (pp. 180, 349).

Notably, not a word of attribution to Darwin is offered up from the pages of "Origin of Species" on Watson's misguided views on phrenology.

(David Quamman, general editor, "Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species: The Illustrated Edition" [New York: Sterling Publishing Co., Inc., 2008], in “Index,” under “Watson, Mr. H. C.,” p. 544)


And no wonder. Darwin was a fierce abolitionist whose deeply-held anti-slavery views arguably drove his investigations into human evolution.

As one PhD in anthropological genetics has noted of Darwin's views on race and phrenology:

“Physical anthropology has its roots, at least in part according to . . . authors [Adrian Desmond and James Moore in 'Darwin's Sacred Cause: How a Hatred of Slavery Shaped Darwin's Views on Human Evolution'], in phrenology. That's the pseudo-science of determining temperament from the shape of the skull.

"Not surprisingly, given that phrenology developed in Europe, Europeans were said to have the most refined skulls and phrenological findings were used to justify slavery, something Darwin's entire family was against.

“Darwin would not have been impressed with the physical anthropologists of his day--especially in America--where differences in skull morphology were seen as 'proof' of a polygenic origin of humans.

"According to polygenists, each human 'race' had its own pair of progenitors and were separately created, an idea used to justify all sorts of atrocities, since non-Europeans were seen as less than human.

“Darwin held the monogenist view, and saw all peoples as descended from a common ancestor, meaning they were all worthy of being treated with dignity and respect, and slavery was unjustified. Actually, he took it farther than that, and saw a common ancestor for all living things. . . .

“My discipline has come a long way since Darwin's day. The American Anthropological Association's 'Statement on Race and Intelligence' states in part:

“'WHEREAS, all human beings are members of one species, 'Homo sapiens;' and

“'WHEREAS, differentiating species into biologically- defined 'races' has proven meaningless and unscientific as a way of explaining variation (whether in intelligence or other traits);

“'THEREFORE, the American Anthropological Association urges the academy, our political leaders and our communities to affirm, without distraction by mistaken claims of racially-determined intelligence, the common stake in assuring equal opportunity, in respecting diversity and in securing a harmonious quality of life for all people.'

“And the American Association of Physical Anthropologists has their own 'Statement on Biological Aspects of Race,' which says:

“' . . . The genetic capacity for intellectual development is one of the biological traits of our species for its survival. This genetic capacity is known to differ among individuals. The peoples of the world today appear to possess equal biological potential for assimilating any human culture. Racist political doctrines find no foundation in scientific knowledge concerning modern or past human populations.'

“That is one of the greatest strengths of the scientific methods. It is self-correcting Scientists learn from their mistakes and misunderstandings.”

(Adrian Desmond and James, Moore, “ Darwin's Sacred Cause: How a Hatred of Slavery Shaped Darwin's Views on Human Evolution” [New York: Houghton Mifflin 2009], 448 pp, at: http://www.amazon.com/Darwins-Sacred-Cause-Slavery-Evolution/dp/0547055269 ; and “2010 Book Club: 'Darwin's Sacred Cause,'" at: http://geknitics.com/2010/03/2010-book-club-darwins-sacred-cause))
_____


Quite simply, Darwin was not a serious or devoted student of populist racist phrenology. To the contrary, Darwin's more curious-than-committed late-teenage era interest in regard for phrenology had all but evaporated by his 20th year:

“Darwin’s early doubts about one of the most popular [n]ineteenth-century theories of nature can be found in the correspondence:

"In 1830, a young Charles wrote to his cousin and friend William Darwin Fox [with whom Darwin had spent three weeks in the summer of 1829 at the Fox family home at Osmaston Hall]:

"'I forgot to mention, I dined with Sir J. Mackintosh & had some talk with him about Phrenology, & he has entirely battered down the very little belief of it that I picked up at Osmaston. . . . He says, as long as Education is supposed to have any effect on decreasing the power in any organ of the brain, he cannot see how it can ever be proven true.'”

(“Darwin and Phrenology,” under “Darwin and Human Nature: The Blog,” at: http://darwinhumannature.wordpress.com/2010/11/24/darwin-and-phrenology/ ; and Darwin, letter to Fox, postmarked 3 January 1830, in “The Correspondence of Charles Darwin,” p. 97, at: http://books.google.com/books?id=VsB-bnCMEbcC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false)
_____


Despite the compelling historical evidence, “anon's” subterfuge keeps on comin,' as he/she conveniently fails to mention that while phrenology-advocate Watson (who was also a noted expert of his day in plant speciation and with whom Darwin compared notes on matters of botanical evolution) , Watson was nonetheless “torn between botany and phrenology. ”

In fact, Watson eventually abandoned efforts to openly argue for phrenology as a legitimate field of science. In 1840 ( nearly two decades before Darwin published his “On the Origin of Species”) Watson “gave up phrenology because he could not raise it to the level of accepted science.” “

(Frank N. Egerton,”Hewett Cottrell Watson: Victorian Plant Ecologist and Evolutionist” [Hants, England: Ashgate Publishing Limited, 2003], p. 1, at: http://books.google.com/books?id=zRfsQazylT8C&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&dq=watson+could+not+raise+it+to+the+level+of+accepted+science&source=bl&ots=oCH3CO5fpn&sig=C_CFQcJhqXz44ycHhKiHABBIOa4&hl=en&ei=_PsWTbDHIJP4sAPk3_W3Ag&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=watson%20could%20not%20raise%20it%20to%20the%20level%20of%20accepted%20science&f=false)
_____


Who can blame both Darwin and Watson for ultimately concluding there was no empirical merit in phrenology?

To be sure, phrenology today “is remembered as a pseudo-science [whose] leaders strove long and hard [and in the end unsuccessfully] to achieve scientific credibility.” Darwin is not regarded by serious historians as having been a prominent or meaningful supporter of race-based phrenology and, in fact, the record (one unfortunately cherry-picked by “anon”) shows that Darwin criticized its unscientific aspects.

Furthermore, “anon” fails to mention that Darwin had a scientific falling out with another famous phrenologist, Alfred Russel Wallace-- despite the fact that Darwin and Wallace had come to similar (albeit independent) conclusions on the reality of human evolution:

“Charles Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace independently discovered natural selection, and a set of common experiences surely contributed to that event. But, there were also major differences in their life-experience as collectors and travelers, their socio-political commitments, and their personal styles. . . .

“[W]hat is, perhaps, the most fundamental area of disagreement between Darwin and Wallace . . [was on] the evolution of humanity.

"Darwin argued that human evolution could be explained by natural selection, with sexual selection as a significant supplementary principle.

“Wallace always had doubts about sexual selection, and ultimately concluded that natural selection alone was insufficient to account for a set of uniquely human characteristics. Among these characteristics, the size and complexity of the human brain, found in all extant human races, occupied a central position.

“Wallace proposed that some new agent had to be invoked, in order to explain the existence of a brain, that could support the common intellectual activities of European culture, but was not (in his view) required to support survival and reproduction in the people that he lived with in the tropics.

“Wallace’s interest in the human brain, and in a materialistic view of brain function, was a natural outcome of an early and
enduring belief in Phrenology. Once he had identified the 'paradoxical' cerebral hypertrophy of non-European racial groups, Wallace’s commitment to 'adaptationism,' meant that a supplementary principle had to be invoked in order to account for that hypertrophy.

“The invocation of a higher power, and/or supreme intelligence, that intervened to create modern humanity, was undoubtedly facilitated by his interest in, and conversion to, spiritualism.

“Wallace’s abandonment of natural selection and sexual selection, as the sole agents of human evolution, set him apart from Darwin - and that, inevitably raises questions about the reasons for Wallace’s defection. Among Wallace’s personal traits was a consistent attraction to unpopular causes, including phrenology and spiritualism. Just as he had been attracted to evolutionary ideas, against the prevailing views of hi stime, so he diverged, from his fellow 'Darwinists,' by invoking the action of a 'Higher Intelligence' to account for the nature of our species.”

(Stephen E. Glickman, Departments of Psychology and Integrative Biology, University of California, Berkeley, “Charles Darwin, Alfred Russel Wallace, and the Evolution/Creation of the Human Brain And Mind,” in “Gayana “ 73 (Supplement), 2009, at: http://www.scielo.cl/pdf/gayana/v73s1/art04.pdf)

*****


Having historically gone where “anon” has irresponsibly failed to tread, it's clear that while “anon” pretends (in “anon's own words) to “always engage in healthy debate,” he/she might first want to try to become healthily informed.

(“Re: Darwinian Evolution ? How does this differ from evolution ?,” posted by “anon,” Recovery from Mormonism” bulletin board, 25 December 2010, 2:30 p.m., at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,62549,63512#msg-63512)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2010 10:36PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Anon ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 08:27PM

[page] 318

The following search terms have been highlighted: phrenology
charmed afresh. There was in Wallace's nature a beauty that will shine when the splendor of Agassiz and the greatness of Lyell are dim. He never laid claim to more honor than the Linnæan paper gave him, and so gained a higher kind of fame than scientific discovery can bring.

He was right in giving thanks that fate had not made him the leader of the evolution army. For such a part he lacked every qualification. He had small sagacity for sifting false men from true ones, small endurance of the hardship of long-continued research, small sense of strategy in the polemics of the biological war. He was not even a reliable reasoner: his theory of natural selection was the only case in which he showed acuteness for large principles. His other attempts—not any one of them, but all taken together—will show the untrustworthiness of his mind.

1. In his youth he became a convert to phrenology; he placidly and unwaveringly held to this faith all his life.

2. He was a convert to Robert Owen's "philosophy of human nature."

3. He believed that an almanac-maker, Murphy, had predicted a whole year's weather in advance; he argued that "the larger phases of the weather are to a considerable extent dependent on the relative positions of the sun and moon."

4. He felt that he had a cure for "the all-embracing system of land-robbery" that had been in vogue since the days of Henry VIII.

5. He was "struck amazingly" by Williams's Fuel of the Sun, which taught that the sun maintained its heat by coming into contact with a "space-atmosphere." Wallace considered the book "beautifully worked out and quite intelligible."

6. Of Darwin's "Pangenesis" (see page 348) he

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Posted by: matt ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 08:33PM

The problem for a scientist is that he or she can have no control over what purpose others put their work to.

Some people either used Darwinism to promulgate odious racism, or pretended that they were following what Darwin had taught. When it is highly likely that Darwin would have hated and detested what they stood for.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 08:42PM

http://darwinhumannature.wordpress.com/2010/11/24/darwin-and-phrenology/




According to the phrenological doctrine, as elaborated by Franz Joseph Gall, the shape of the skull reflects the `organs’ or faculties of the brain.

Phrenology attained considerable popularity in England: by 1832 there were 29 phrenological societies and an influential journal edited by George Combe.

Yet the theory is almost never mentioned by Darwin, who did not discuss it, nor mentioned in any of the two editions of the Descent of Man the experiments which by then had demonstrated that some movements hitherto attributed to free will could be produced by localised electrical simulation of the brain - (although a section on the brain was added to the second edition in 1874).

Darwin’s early doubts about one of the most popular Nineteenth-century theories of nature can be found in the correspondence: In 1830, a young Charles wrote to his cousin and friend William Darwin Fox “I forgot to mention, I dined with Sir J. Mackintosh & had some talk with him about Phrenology, & he has entirely battered down the very little belief of it that I picked up at Osmaston.”

Darwin had spent three weeks with Fox at Osmaston Hall, the Fox Family’s home, in the summer of 1829. Sir James Mackintosh (1765-1832) was a philosopher and historian who had studied medicine at Edinburgh; he and Josiah Wedgwood of Maer married two of the Allen sisters, so there was connection by marriage between the families. Darwin wrote about first meeting Mackintosh during one of his visits to Maer in 1827 and later referred to him as `the best converser I ever listened to’ (The autobiography of Charles Darwin, p. 55)


Charles’ letter to Fox is both interesting in showing how a popular subject such as phrenology could be “picked up” or not, by young minds, but also how easily a conversation was enough to “batter down” any belief in it !

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Posted by: anon ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 08:48PM

but thats the same 1830 stuff.....I am going PAST that date.

His "very little belief?"

Well I wonder why he would praise Gall 20 years later and what did he say to him?

Does Edinburgh have these letters?

As I cited before the Author in 1829 came to these same conclusions.

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Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 09:07PM

http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?viewtype=text&itemID=F1961&keywords=phrenology&pageseq=1

"The experience of many savage races of man proves that the external shape of the brain may be greatly modified by pressure, without the intellectual faculties being affected."

From the footnote: "3 This remark suggests that Darwin also rejected phrenology, which dictated that the modification of the shape of the brain via the skull must result in altered character. See van Wyhe 2004."

Further, Darwin could not have said anything to Gall after 1828, since that is when he died.

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Posted by: anon ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 09:19PM

This is not my connotation of what he is saying.

Linking the two seems far removed. I don't think that he was using phrenology for an alterior-but I will read more that you provided.

Edinburg claims to have the letters or corresponding letters in the wiki article. I wish I knew the year this occurred but why in the Heck would he mention the contribution Gall had made if TOOS had not been published.

thanks

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Posted by: anon ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 09:23PM

I'm not so sure you have contributed to the scientific process going on here- so please don't waste thread:)

I noticed my mistake. Usually Benson would dive for such scraps.

We really are looking into this ;if you or Benson hate that then leave.

I do make sense at times thanks for saying so!

I do not see the harm in getting to the bottom of it at all:)

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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 09:27PM

Thanks for hijacking my fucking thread. We were talking about Eugenics and "Darwinism" that you clearly don't understand. Call me a dick if you like, but whatever your point about phrenology is bullshit. And at this point I don't care because 1) you won't say what point it is. And 2) you don't know what you are talking about anyway.

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Posted by: anon ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 09:33PM

dick

sheeez


Sorry I am such an inferior being.

haha

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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 10:01PM

You want to post ridiculous nonsense about phrenology that goes absolutely nowhere and has no point, start your own goddamn thread.

But it doesn't surprise me now why Cabbie and Benson came out guns blazing.

Was it too difficult to read that this was about your Eugenics rant before you posted about your precious phrenology?

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Posted by: anon ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 10:31PM

I do mean it.

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Posted by: anon ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 09:47PM

I had not realized until now?

I'm sorry?

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Posted by: anon ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 09:42PM

3 This remark suggests that Darwin also rejected phrenology, which dictated that the modification of the shape of the brain via the skull must result in altered character. See van Wyhe 2004


My bad Gumby in the footnotes it says he rejected it-I believe that is the authors opinion that he rejected it according to the statement.
I am looking for written documents by Darwin himself after 1831.

Thank you and I will look at it further.

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Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 10:03PM

It is highly unlikely that Edinburgh, or anyone else, has any letters written by Darwin to Franz Joseph Gall after 1829, because Gall died in 1828.

Pardon me, but you seem to have very little idea what you are talking about, or where you want to go with all of this. What exactly is your purpose in posting this stuff?

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Posted by: anon ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 10:36PM

I feel really bad about it and hope he will post again and I will give it a go.

If not you will have to start your own thread on the controversy.

I don't have an agenda was just exploring the ideas and searching for the letters.

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Posted by: anon ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 10:38PM

HAHA

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Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 10:49PM

or intelligent either.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 10:54PM


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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 10:38PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2010 10:40PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 10:40PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2010 10:42PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 10:46PM

. . . which "anon" (studiously and unstudiously) ignored.

Darwin's realization that phrenology was not a scientific explanation for human evolutionary development started at an early age for him (articulated by him in a letter to his cousin at age 2o) and he never endorsed it as any kind of scientically legitimate explanation for the evolutionary development of human cranial capacity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2010 10:48PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: OnceMore ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 09:15PM

Anon wrote: ""P-S- your right phrenology is so very racist and pathetically unscientific!"

My dear anon, this is not the only example of your using "your" when "you're" would be correct.

If "you are" makes sense in the sentence, then one should use the contraction "you're." "Your" is a possessive pronoun. Steve Benson does not own nor does he possess a "right phrenology."

Anon, you seem to be all over the place as you try to connect Darwin to a "very racist and pathetically unscientific" theory. At times you make sense, and at times you don't. I think your problem may stem from working so very hard to jam Darwin into a pigeonhole.

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Posted by: sonoma ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 09:48PM

perhaps I can help anon.
Mr anon, science does not depend on the "worthiness" of the scientist. It doesn't matter if Darwin never had a coherent thought before or after his masterful theories. They stand alone. And no matter what you say, Darwin killed God and did more for the liberation of the human mind than any person who has ever lived on this planet.

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Posted by: anon ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 09:55PM

.....intent.

I firmly believe in evolution.


I hardly believe he "killed" "god."


Thank you but your unsolicited help is laughable.

Yes he was a great scientist.

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Posted by: sonoma ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 10:00PM

anon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> .....intent.
>
> I firmly believe in evolution.
>
>
> I hardly believe he "killed" "god."


***Then you don't understand evolution.
>
>
> Thank you but your unsolicited help is laughable.


***Actually, what IS laughable is the fact that you've written paragraph after paragraph and no one (including you) has the slightest idea what the hell you're trying to say.
>
> Yes he was a great scientist.

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Posted by: anon ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 10:13PM

I do believe there was communication there.


Do you have any documents in Darwins handwriting proving unequivocally he did not believe in Phrenology?

Edinburgh claims otherwise.

Could not be more crystal clear.

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Posted by: anon ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 10:14PM


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Posted by: sonoma ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 10:30PM

anon, I had a document in Darwin's own hand, unequivocally proving that he did not believe in Phrenology... unfortunately the salamander who led me to where it was buried made me give it back. I did however allow 12 witnesses to see it with their "spiritual eyes" before it was returned...

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Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 10:35PM

find those documents. Merely saying that Edinburgh has those documents doesn't prove your point. I think that all you have is bullshit. Once again, put up or shut up. Either give us proof that Darwin believed in phrenology or go away.

And don't give us your whine about how this is detracting from the "scientific inquiry". Scientific inquiry doesn't consist of making assertions without proof, and rejecting out of hand contrary evidence. That falls in the realm of mopologetics.

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Posted by: anon ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 10:53PM

I am thinking you know where they are.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 10:58PM

Did you go to school?

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Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 11:01PM

Hey anon: what is your source for the existence of these letters anyway?

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Posted by: anon ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 11:01PM


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Posted by: OnceMore ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 11:00PM

Ah, so now anon thinks that we know where the letters are. We know all about the writings that damn Darwin to Phrenology hell, but we, (raptorjesus, Steve Benson, Gumby, Dave the Atheist, Sonoma, SL Cabbie, matt, et.al.), we are all part of an elaborate conspiracy to hide this information from the world in general, and from anon in particular.

This calls for more drinking and more swearing.

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Posted by: anon ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 11:03PM


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Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 11:52PM

First, it was Alfred Wallace, not George Wallace.
Second, what Wallace thought is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Remember, you are the one who asserted that *Darwin*, not Wallace, was a lifelong believer in phrenology,

Nice attempt at redirecting the debate, but it isn't going to work.

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Posted by: anon ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 11:56PM

I think it's important we know that he was a believer till' death!

(gutair riffage)

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 11:59PM


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Posted by: anon ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 11:43PM

Maybe my memory is bad-I'd like to see what you had to say.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 11:58PM


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Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 11:04PM

They are clearly in the cavern in the Hill Cumorah with Laban's sword and all of the other plates that Briggy described.

There, now we're back on topic. :-)

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Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 10:54PM

I am also beginning to wonder if "anon" isn't really the old poster "Newname" as he displays the same rock-headed inability to grasp any new concepts.

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 11:09PM

I was trying to remember that one all day...

Same manipulative questions, same denial defenses, same reliance on talking points...

Same avoidance of responsiblity, "It's not my fault."

Jesus made him do it...

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Posted by: OnceMore ( )
Date: December 26, 2010 10:23PM

Perhaps we should lower the bar. Instead of expecting anon to learn something about natural selection, we can ask that anon learn about the use of "your" and "you're."

anon wrote: "Your right phrenology was not in the cards...."

This title for one of anon's posts should read, "You're right, phrenology was not in the cards..."

One small step for anon, one small step at a time.

I'm trying to envision someone's "right phrenology" fitting into cards of any kind. First, we have to define what a "right phrenology" looks like, and whether or not you can possess one or more "right phrenologies." After that "your right phrenology" may be fit into the cards. [insert "joke" label, if necessary]

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