In 2008, I attended the ex-Mormon conference. It felt alien. Apart from a brief "conversion" at the age of 22, which got me through a rough time but never amounted to any real involvement with the Church, I only knew about the Church from what I had studied, which fascinated me.

But never mind that.

At one point, I met a very smart fellow, the son of a medical doctor, who was gay. Not only was he brilliant and a very gifted writer, but extremely angry. Again, I felt like an alien, looking in. Ostensibly, I was "gay" (whatever that meant), but completely different from this fellow--I'll call him Jeff. Jeff was unabashed, in-your-face, liberal, an atheist, someone who liked to enjoy himself, and professorial. Imagine a very young, gay Christopher Hitchens, and you'll get a sense for what his personality. I was conservative, admired Mormon culture (not that I dared make that widely known there), and didn't fit into the gay scene.

I remember the formal dinner. Jeff sat to my left, and an older gay man to my right. I always try to be polite--to a fault--and so people would never imagine the real thoughts that I think and the feelings that I feel--unless and until they read my writing. And for the first time in these past two years, I'm going to write (just a little) about what I thought and felt that day.

Earlier in the day, there was a talk about being gay compared to being left-handed. At the end of that talk, Jeff had gotten into a conversation with a middle-aged straight fellow and father. Normally, I would have quietly sneaked out, but I overheard Jeff mention something that happened to interest me. I think that he was trying to explain that the modern family truly is a modern concept, and that it was nothing like what we know it to be today back, say, in the Middle Ages.

I had been reading parts of a book about just that, _Medieval Households_, by David Herlihy, and against my better judgment, I gently inserted myself into the conversation as an active listener. The father tried to explain his bafflement at how someone could be gay--i.e. a male desiring another male. There was Jeff, three feet away from me, and there was the father, three feet away. I could tell that the father wasn't trying to be judgmental, only trying to understand, and I felt myself overcome with both compassion and sorrow--compassion for the suffering, the discomfort, that someone in the majority must have felt when confronted by minorities and ways of living that were utterly foreign to anything he'd ever experienced or thought could possibly exist, and sorrow that he, or anyone else, should have to suffer. I immediately recognized that homophobia harms not only gay people, but straight people. It separates *people*. And we could learn a lot from each other.

I would never be a father. That much, I knew. But I had some idea of what it might be like to be a father; I could imagine both the responsibility and the difficulty of it. And for a Mormon father to show up at an ex-Mormon conference to explore and learn new ideas was, in my book, a very courageous act.

Jeff said a few things to the father, and I found myself serving as a mediator and translator. Jeff was gay. The father was straight, and courageously trying to truly *understand* the concept of being gay. I knew that Jeff was too intense for the father, but that if his rhetoric could be buffered, a valuable bridge might be established. At one point, I looked up at the father, and said, "I know how mind-bending this is." I didn't intentionally try to serve as a bridge between cultures, but for a brief while, I became one, using my imperfect understanding of both, and my far greater comfort in the heterosexist culture, to facilitate meaningful and even insightful communication and learning. I genuinely wished that neither Jeff nor I needed to try to explain that there was nothing wrong with gay marriage, an idea that this man opposed, but nevertheless was open-minded about. He kept saying that he was just trying to understand, and I'm certain that he was sincere.

I knew that had I been the father, I would never have allowed myself to get caught up in a conversation about gay marriage. I could deeply empathize with where this man was coming from, given the culture and historical era that he'd been raised in. Usually, we "gay" people want straights to feel sorry for us--or at least, I think that many of us do. It doesn't often happen the other way around, and yet I felt myself really admiring this man who was fighting his natural instincts to even talk to us, not to mention to attend the ex-Mormon conference. It amazed me, and I felt a moral obligation to help him understand anything that he wanted to know about, to the best of my ability to explain it, given my own limited knowledge and many other constraints.

I explained what little I'd learned about what families in former times used to be like, which got Jeff's intellectual nature excited, and we had a good, if brief, conversation among the three of us. It wasn't that my hope was to change the father's mind about gay marriage. Really, I didn't have any goal at all, other than to make him feel less uncomfortable. I wonder if that man still remembers the conversation, and if it made any kind of a difference. It's not the conversation that mattered, but I hope that in some small way, I was able to make him feel--to make him know--that we weren't a threat to straights and straight marriage.

As I thought about Jeff--and by then, I'd learned quite a bit about his background and plight--I knew that if I was "gay," I wasn't "gay" in the same way that he was. The label felt uncomfortable. I nearly had a panic attack when a woman at the conference asked me which username I used on RfM, and I actually told her, "GayPhilosopher." "I had an uncle who was gay," she said, nonjudgmentally. I just stood there, staring at my feet, not knowing what to say.

I'm all too well aware that other gay males would consider me a traitor. A gay Mormon former friend who went on to become a neurosurgeon even accused me of being a "traitor," and a liar (about being gay). But I know what it's like never to be able to fit into straight society through the channels of marriage and children.

And then there was the older gay fellow who sat to my right at dinner. In a private conversation outside of the hotel the next day, he told me that he had been in a relationship with a fellow he loved, but that that fellow had never been able to control his passions, and had eventually contracted AIDS, and after a prolonged and horrific battle, died. My interlocutor told me at one point that he said to his former lover, "I don't have the capability to cope with this..." (your dying from AIDS). He tried to take care of his former lover, but it was extremely hard on him, and at some point, he had to step away from it to avoid harming himself. I got the impression that this was a very sensitive and kind fellow, but he talked about being gay, and about AIDS, in a straightforward and open manner that frankly made me feel uncomfortable. If there were any thought running through my mind at the time, it would have been, "I don't belong here. Not among gays. Not among ex-Mormons. Not in Utah. Why am I here!?"

Maybe part of it involved curiosity; I'm sure that it did. Maybe part of it involved trying to understand the environment that my deeply missed friend Doug Stewart was shaped by, to somehow be able to better cope with his suicide two years earlier. To this day, I don't know.

I do know this, though. At one point, several of us--including Jeff--got in a car, drove to a Unitarian Universalist church where Richard Packham was speaking, with Lyndon Lamborn and others in attendance, and--at least speaking for myself--had a relaxed and fun time. For a while, gay, straight, Mormon, ex-Mormon, God, atheism...all of these became just words, words that over the course of dinner, a little later, dropped off as defenses went down and fun and compelling human personalities came through.

As I continue to study Mormonism, gay men (a changing concept as homosexuality becomes more openly discussed, leading to inevitable social, institutional, and individual attitudinal change), and struggle to reconcile what it means for *me* to be gay in a very non-gay way (i.e. straight-sympathetic, conservative, and shocked by outrageous displays), I wonder what our society will look like in 20 years. The challenge is that we have to live in it today, and create what it will be like two decades hence, with all of the suffering that that entails. And my answer thus far is to cultivate kindness. Words and straw men divide us. If we can just control our emotions and respect everyone, no matter how different others are from us, we could travel light years instead of picometers, to create a better future.

I think about Hermann Hesse's Steppenwolf, a lone wolf who seemed to live inside that gap between the passing of one age and the dawn of another. Many of us exist in that gap, waiting and hoping--all the while keenly aware that we're "losing" time--that the future will be better. In the aftermath of death and destruction is birth, and life. In the long term, I'm optimistic, but it's so very difficult to not get caught up in the pain and countless insults and disappointments of everyday life to hold on to the hope, and take the actions needed, to not only imagine, but *create*, a better world for us all.

For anyone interested, have a look at http://www.youtube.com/user/MorMenLikeMe#p/c/3AD5055210433F74/0/ByJS8eOgLTM

Watch the other men's stories, too. There is no archetype of heterosexuality or homosexuality, or even humanity. Instead, there are a lot of individuals that find themselves part of groups and not teams, living in buildings and not homes, walking and working among strangers rather than friends, belonging to a species rather than a community.

How can we connect, or even if not everyone can connect, at least, how can we come to a place where we can honestly wish everyone peace of mind, shelter, health, love, and happiness?

If we could do that, it would utterly transform our world.

Steve

and appreciate that you shared those. I sometimes feel like I don't fit in and wonder what I'm doing here myself, having been out of the church over 30 years. But then I remember, oh, I have issues from Mormonism too. This forum has given me a few more.

But, seriously--"courageously trying to understand the concept of being gay"?! What concept? Instead of the opposite gender, you're attracted to your same gender. Seems simple enough to me, certainly not hard to understand. Why is that even hard to emphathize with? I can imagine what it would be like to be attracted to girls, and I'm no prodigy. It's just not hard.

I think sometimes people who say "help me understand" don't want to understand at all, but instead just use it to pretend not to be judgmental. They know that's not cool, so they go around saying they don't understand.

FTS. I think your sympathy was undeserved.

:-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2010 12:53AM by munchybotaz.

Hi Munchy,

I was around 23 when I became friendly with a few missionaries living in the same city as me. I'm particularly proud of one of them--in fact, elated--because he went on to become a professor. Back in 1993, his goals were far more modest--in fact, downright humble. He was the nicest guy, a true believer, who asked that his mission be extended to serve "the Lord." Through a very close Mormon friend, I'd gotten to know a bunch of other missionaries as well, including one fellow who was as zealous and devoted as they come, but--to the consternation of his peers, advocated violence against gays. At one point, I told the others that they needed to say something to him. They felt exasperated and had obviously tried before. One encouraged me to talk to him. (There wasn't the slightest hint that I could be anything but straight, by the way.) At the time, I didn't think that I could say anything that would change him, and so I didn't, but when you remember that this was 1993, and that the others weren't homophobic, unlike this particular fellow, it's a rather amazing thing and a good portent for the future, I think.

Ever since I discovered that "Steve" had become a professor, I'd thought about contacting him. I knew that he was married with children, and an active LDS. Would it be a good or a bad idea to make contact? What could the consequences to me be? What possible benefit to him, if any, might there be? Or might we turn out to become friends in an authentic way that might enrich both of our lives? (I feel skeptical, even though we got along extremely well; but in the end, I am an atheist, and he is a believer--and a *Mormon* believer.)

Why did I feel empathy for the man at the ex-Mormon conference? I guess I've always been empathetic. I can understand, and deeply feel, where others are coming from. It's not easy to change if you've been raised all your life to believe that the world is a certain way.

It's not that there's anything conceptually hard about understanding that gay guys fall in love with guys, and not girls. But understanding it conceptually, and actually seeing it, and having an averse emotional reaction that was conditioned into you since childhood and struggling not to show it, are two different things. I really felt that something special happened that day at the conference. How many people even today are repulsed by the idea of interracial marriage? This fellow had the courage to show up at an ex-Mormon conference and engage in conversation with a militant gay rights advocate (mediated by a semi-gay intellectual weirdo--me) about something of serious importance to the future lives of many gay people--gay marriage.

This was an amazing act. It would have been like a white male in 1960 giving up his seat on a bus to a black female. I never doubted his sincerity, and I think that there's an important difference in approach between Jeff and me. As I mentioned, Jeff is angry at the world about the ignorance with which it treats gay people. He's angry at...a lot of people and circumstances, and he writes polemic after polemic against heterosexist society.

I understand that anger, but I, myself, don't share it. Instead, I feel pity. Among others, Jeff is angry at his parents for rejecting him. My friend Doug's parents rejected his "lifestyle," which is a euphemism for rejecting him, too. In response to this, one could become angry, disown one's parents, work to educate them, write polemics, take anti-depressants, self-destruct, or any number of other things. I learned at an early age to not put myself in any lines of fire where any serious harm to me could result. If others want to be militant gay rights advocates, that's great. It's just not something that I personally feel I was meant to do. I don't personally feel that I'm missing out on a right that I don't already have, although many others do. I respect that and fully support gay marriage, but personally feel that the very idea of marriage is a legal anachronism and poor excuse for creating a foundation for a family to thrive on. There are many unhappy, abusive, legal-biological families.

I think that no amount of preaching and teaching through words--either through writing or face-to-face conversation--can change people's minds enough to make a difference. They--straight people--need to be able to see what being gay--say in Salt Lake City--actually *means*. I wish that there were a museum that they could visit, one that told a story. A boy is born. He's the parents' favorite. He's adored by everyone and is involved in all of the right activities. He's loyal and faithful. He goes on a mission, and returns, but he realizes that he's gay, and that he can't marry a girl and live a lie. He tells his parents, who reject him. He contemplates suicide, loses all of his friends, and can't find a job. He gets involved with a bad crowd--his fellow rejects--and takes drugs as an escape mechanism and resorts to random sex as often as possible. He hears about some of his acquaintances diagnosed with HIV, but he, himself, evades it, and decides to turn his life around.

He's smart, and he wants to go to school, but how can he make money to go? He struggles with crushing loneliness and the unending problems of daily life without anyone to help him. He must rely solely on himself. He sees a psychiatrist and starts taking anti-depressants. They help, eventually, but to a limited extent, and at a cost: he becomes fat, and develops self-loathing, yet he's able to function. He eventually finds a job, and works, but it's difficult. He does his best to try to date, first trying gay clubs, and then online dating services, though everywhere he looks, it seems that gay men are looking only for sex, and not a relationship. He believes in his heart that this isn't a universal truth, but he can find no counterexamples.

Maybe if straight people could get the slightest bit of insight into just how much gay males suffer, from a young age onward, they'd begin to realize their own culpability, and *change*. They could *refuse* to allow gay men to fall so far into despair as to commit suicide. As long as we, as a society, let that continue to happen, we remain barbarians, in my eyes.

Short of this mythical museum, there's real life, usually hidden far away from straight families. Out of sight, out of mind. Sure, sometimes they'll see freakish gay pride parades depicted on TV or online, but it doesn't really affect them. They can ignore it. Only when one of their children turns out to be gay is there a problem--and at that point, there's a *real* problem. While straight families have multiple members bringing in money to pay for a large house, the gay boy is struggling to pay for an apartment, and often doesn't have any health insurance. Too often, there's no one to support him. He doesn't have any real friends. He's painfully alone, and aware of it at all times. Add to this having a family that his rejected you, and you can see why so many gay males consider or actually commit suicide. It is a miserable existence for most gay males.

But it doesn't have to be, and one day, it won't be. Just as the blacks struggled before us, we've been struggling for quite a while to win our own place at the table. I believe that achieving that will take changing minds--one at a time. And no single gay person can connect with at least one straight person to change their mind. It will take all of us, each with different personalities and perspectives, trying to bridge the gap. We need to talk with, not shout at, each other. While there may be a time for shouting, and even war, I think we're well enough past the Stonewall Riots that we can hopefully begin to talk, instead of fight against, each other.

Homophobia harms straight people.

If homophobia didn't exist, I'm confident that my friend, Doug, would be alive today, and his parents wouldn't grieve for the rest of their lives that their son is dead. If homophobia didn't exist, I'm confident that the incidence of disease--including AIDS--would decline. If homophobia didn't exist, straight people would have more amazing friends who would greatly enrich their lives. But homophobia does exist, and the world is worse off for it.

I think straight people, both unknowingly and knowingly, have made the lives of many gay people miserable beyond description, even leading to suicide. And gay people have fought against this, flipping straight people off and leading a lifestyle intended more to provoke straights than to achieve happiness. This has to stop. It hurts everyone.

But without empathy, without courage from both sides, without sincerity, without asking questions, without acknowledging each other's existence, importance, and right to be heard, how can we make any progress?

I salute that fellow from the ex-Mormon conference who put himself in the line of fire. He didn't have to, and I think that it was a courageous act. For Jeff's and my part, I believed that we were morally obligated to reciprocate and treat him respectfully rather than making demands.

Without kindness, we may win all the world, but lose our souls in the process.

I think I will reach out to the former Elder Marks, and tell him that I'm proud that he's gone as far as he has. Where that will go, I don't know, but it's a beginning--or rather, a continuance after a long interruption.

Steve

I think he needs ass kicked. I also think you could apply a little more of that magnanimity to those living the lifestyle that's intended to provoke straights, whatever you mean by that. Why does the guy at the exmo conference get the assumption of sincerity?

:-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2010 10:56AM by munchybotaz.

...how many of the homosexual people who say they don't want to be gay, actually don't want to be part of what they imagine to be The Official Gay Lifestyle®. They see certain types of gay people, or certain behaviors, and think, "That's not me. I don't want to be like that." Or maybe they want a certain kind of life and think they can't have it if they're gay.

I hope there will be a time when someone's -- anyone's -- sexual preferences will become a nonissue, will cease to be either a curse or a movement, that there would be no stereotypes one feels compelled to conform to. Just be ourselves in whatever form that takes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2010 08:40AM by Stray Mutt.

I've never been sure what a gay 'lifestyle' is. I think some people think it means behaving in a sort of unbridled way and taking on an 'in your face' attitude toward others.

I cringe when I see a gay pride parade or celebration. That's not me or most of the gay people I know. I'm grateful for the people who work for gay rights but hate to see men acting foolishly in public, it can only reinforce the bad impression some people already have.

I so agree with your comment, "Cultivate kindness. Words and straw men divide us. If we can just control our emotions and respect everyone, no matter how different others are from us, we could travel light years instead of picometers, to create a better future._"

Much of what I have come to understand about life and the church has come to me in the past 3 or four years. I have found some people, gay and streight are simply out of reach of my understanding. On the other hand, I have found others to be right down the line with how I think and feel. I do not care to be involved with the steriotypical and out front gay culture though I believe I understand and support the issues. The movie 'Harvey Milk' gave me a whole new understanding as to the issues around Homosexuality. So did many other sources.

I have come to understand that in my own life, my sexuality has very little to do with who I am. I can be abrasive but mostly I am kind, caring and sensitive. I think that is the same for everyone. I can find myself depressed to the point of thinking it would be better to just check out. I wonder if Jeff (in the above thread) wasn't at one time depressed to the point of self destruction. He may now be an angry, bitter, outspoken and raging man but I believe that in his anger (present state) that he is in a much better place than before.

That has been my experience. Getting angry and stomping and snorting feels much better than the hopelessness of depression. At least I feel some energy when I am angry and expressing my anger. Others tell me my anger is hurting me (and sometime them) but they don't realize that from where I was, the anger is a much better place. They would rather I return to the depression (and pill) as, for them, I was much easier to be around. That is not healing nor helpful.

It sometimes takes a while for me to work through my anger and get it all out but I find that with time, I really do move up the scale. I am able to start letting it go and then I am just at dissappointment or frustration with the situation or people. It doesn't take but another few weeks (months, years) and I find I have moved to the point where none of it matters any more. I can be my kind, loving self and no longer be affected by those people or things that use to set me off into a depression or a rage.

I have to remind myself that everyone is exactly where they need to be 'for themselves'. I might not understand or agree with what they are doing, saying or feeling because I am only able to use my 'filter' in assessing their situation. There will always be contrast (problems) in everyone's life and everyone does the best they know how through their understandings. I believe that - and trust that.

It's amazing to watch as the world turns, churns and still goes on. The solutions just keep coming, some are predictable and boring but wow, some of the solutions are unexpected and awesome. I

"Usually, we "gay" people want straights to feel sorry for us--or at least, I think that many of us do."
...well at least you qualified that nonsense as your own opinion, and not as a statement of fact.

"I cringe when I see a gay pride parade or celebration. That's not me or most of the gay people I know. I'm grateful for the people who work for gay rights but hate to see men acting foolishly in public, it can only reinforce the bad impression some people already have."
...what a load of self-righteous B.S. Do you have one foot OUT of the closet and one foot IN, or what? Men acting foolishly in public would be someone like Thomas Monson in a greek baker outfit, or, let's see...Mark Foley, Ted Haggard, Larry Craig, Bob Allen, Glenn Murphy, junior, and George Rekers making it into the news for being fine, moral, upstanding right-wing conservatives while trying to hide the fact that they suck cock for kicks. Now that's foolishness.

I'm so glad you all feel free enough to be able to dis all over others being themselves, being silly in public, being proud of who they are for the first time in their lives enough to want to celebrate the fact, and being angry activists for your freedom's sake as well as their own. Just remember that the Stonewall Riot of 1979 happened because a bunch of OUTRAGEOUS DRAG QUEENS got sick and tired of police harassment and started throwing bricks at them and torching police cars. You two oh-so-effete delicate conservative gay fleurs sound like you wouldn't have lifted a finger to save yourselves or anyone else.

Gay Philosopher has been here before and you figured him out right away! GP is relentless in his self pity and negative views on being gay and the gay community but be warned, there are a lot of people here that will buy into his self hate and will attack you if you stand up to him and tell him he is truly full of shit.

Hi MJ,

It's always a pleasure to converse with you. :-)

Would you care do address the points in my most recent post in this thread (cf. gay.com's chat rooms and, especially, Craigslist)?

Best Wishes,

Steve

I don't even care to read your verbose drivel any more.

But I will say that I think if very arrogant to think that you somehow qualify to be the intermediary between a gay person and a straight person.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2010 03:02PM by MJ.

MJ,

Isn't it a little odd to attack someone whose "verbose drivel" you can't be bothered to read?

Why, exactly, do you hate me, and why are you perpetually angry?

Steve

Glen Beck
Bill O'reily
Jerry Falwell
Any of the LDS leaders
Mitt Romney
the list goes on and on. There are plenty of people that I stop reading because of mindless drivel, you included.

and if you ever tried to be some sort of intermediary between me and someone I am talking to, I would tell you to shut the fuck up.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2010 03:15PM by MJ.

MJ,

I don't hate myself, nor do I hate you. I care a great deal about people, and about the plight of gay males, in particular, which is why I occasionally write verbosely about the topic, no matter what you actually think of my ideas. It saddens me to think that you presume to condemn my statements, as if they're all repetitious and you've sampled enough of them to know, while you consistently refuse to engage their implications and enter into dialog defended by facts rather than emotional diatribes based on trying to turn me into a straw man, misrepresenting my views, and assassinating my character.

I'm not asking anyone to take my statements on faith. I've pointed out what anyone can do to evaluate for themselves whether my assessment is accurate or flawed, and made plain my desire to be corrected, should I be in error. I've explained all of this in my most recent "long" post.

If you won't open your eyes, you won't see, and what you don't see *can* kill you. Denial doesn't magically eradicate threats. Arrogance and intransigence don't move us forward. Pouting and fist pounding are unhelpful. Altogether, I believe that your behavior isn't malign, but it is unskillful.

Are you aware that it creates suffering, including your own? And if so, why do you engage in it?

Steve

I have tried to make this point to you dozens of times when you were whining on and on about how gay men can never connect. You conveniently ignored the fact that gay men connect the world over but because YOU can not connect, it became something about being gay that prevented your connection, not your sour puss negativity,.

MJ,

Not many people who know me would use either the term "sourpuss" or "negative" to describe me. In fact, you're the only one that I can think of, although you don't know me.

If by "negative" you mean that you dislike that I point out gay.com's chat rooms and the male-seeking-male listings on Craigslist, I didn't create gay.com or Craigslist. I didn't write the content. I'm pointing out something that you may find "negative" (I hope that you do), but on the other hand, you may find these things to be "positive" expressions of "freedom." This view, I oppose.

I wish that you would respond to my points, rather than going on and on with personal attacks based on some imaginary caricature of me that you have in your head.

Steve

All I have done is read your writing and I do call you a sourpuss and negative.

But you yourself acknowledge that other gays do not agree with you "I'm all too well aware that other gay males would consider me a traitor." Your negative, condescending views about the gay community certainly is a problem there.

And the reason why you can not connect isn't a problem with the gay community, but your views about the gay community that get you labeled a traitor.

And I do not see labeling you as a "traitor" all that much different from labeling you a sourpuss, they both are addressing the same issue.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2010 03:41PM by MJ.

MJ,

Let me point out some real, as opposed to imaginary, issues for you.

* One in five gay males in the United States is HIV positive.

* "aGayMormon" on YouTube is suffering.

* My friend Doug Stewart killed himself.

* http://saltlakecity.craigslist.org/cgi-bin/personals.cgi?category=m4m

Your thoughts about me are a red herring. The real issue isn't about me, but facts that involve real people who are in trouble and moving along a self-destructive path.

Steve

PS Sonoma, thanks for the entertainment. :)

Gay Philosopher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MJ,
>
> Let me point out some real, as opposed to
> imaginary, issues for you.
>
> * One in five gay males in the United States is
> HIV positive.

So? 4 out of 5 is not. Oh, and do take a look at the stats in Africa. You are making moral judgments about people that have caught a disease, such thinking should have gone out with the dark ages.

>
> * "aGayMormon" on YouTube is suffering.
>

So? What does that prove? Is that a problem with the gay lifesyle of something else?

> * My friend Doug Stewart killed himself.
>
> *

Again, is that a problem with the gay lifestyle or something else?

> http://saltlakecity.craigslist.org/cgi-bin/persona
> ls.cgi?category=m4m

What of it?
http://saltlakecity.craigslist.org/cgi-bin/personals.cgi?category=m4w

How is it really different?


>
> Your thoughts about me are a red herring. The real
> issue isn't about me, but facts that involve real
> people who are in trouble and moving along a
> self-destructive path.

Considering that you your self claim that other gay men consider you a traitor indicates to me that it is NOT just my view of you, but rather the view of a whole community.

But hey, I guess you are arrogant enough to believe the YOU are right and everyone else that is gay is wrong, eh?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2010 04:03PM by MJ.

MJ,

If you actually look at the posts on each area below, you'll be able to answer your own question within 60 seconds:

http://saltlakecity.craigslist.org/cgi-bin/personals.cgi?category=m4m

http://saltlakecity.craigslist.org/cgi-bin/personals.cgi?category=m4w

> How is it really different?

Here's one difference: the general absence of exposed genitalia. It seems to me that the m4w posts are far less overtly lustful than the m4m posts. There's far less risk to a heterosexual in the U.S. of contracting HIV than of a gay male. The m4m posts are generally prurient and encounter-based, whereas the m4w posts appear more romantic and relationship-oriented. You can find rare exceptions, but I'm talking about general trends.

Put another way, let's pretend that "you" (not you, MJ) were gay, and you wanted to find wholesome gay friends and, hopefully, a lifelong romantic partner. Would *you* really expect to find this person somewhere among the m4m Craigslist posts, or in a gay.com chat room?

And if not, where would you go? What would you do?

My friend Doug didn't kill himself because of Mormonism. He had left the Church and thought nothing more about it. It didn't affect his life, except for whatever residual effects it may have had from his early life upbringing. He killed himself because despite his sustained efforts to find the romantic partner of his dreams, he couldn't. He found relationships, but none that lasted. Eventually, he became despondent, and he gave up. "What's most wanted is most denied," he told me. And he wanted this more than anything else in the world.

It's the Craigslist phenomenon that had a lot more to do with Doug's death than the Mormon Church, I think. The great tragedy--in addition to those of us who loved him losing him--was that he had so much going for him: knockout looks, jaw-dropping ability as a writer, he was a master cellist, and he had an incredibly powerful brain with an artist's sensitivity. I can't just close my eyes and pretend that the Craigslist phenomenon doesn't exist. It does, and I say that it's a very bad thing.

Can't we find a better way?

Steve

Oh, wow, a part of the human body is inappropriate to show, how Mormon of you. Better go put a towel around the statue of David.

As far as "Put another way, let's pretend that "you" (not you, MJ) were gay, and you wanted to find wholesome gay friends and, hopefully, a lifelong romantic partner. Would *you* really expect to find this person somewhere among the m4m Craigslist posts, or in a gay.com chat room?"

I know what craigslist forums are all about. No, if I were looking for friends, I would not look there, that is NOT WHAT THEY ARE FOR. If I was looking for NSA sex, I might use craigslist and have no problem with it.

I see the issue now, you can not look at a forum and say "Oh, that's about finding sex, this is not a place I should be looking for friends". Rather you get all judgmental and say "these people are looking for sex and that is just wrong", which is your problem with sex, not theirs.

Gay Philosopher Wrote:

> * One in five gay males in the United States is
> HIV positive.
>

http://www.avert.org/women-hiv-aids.htm

"At the end of 2009 it was estimated that out of the 33.3 million adults worldwide living with HIV and AIDS, more than half are women. It is suggested that 98 percent of these women live in developing countries."

Time to visit the real world when it comes to AIDS.

It seems that since we are on a exmo recovery board, the issue to be addressed here is the continuing practice of mormons raising children in an environment in which being gay is seen as lesser, or evil or deviant. This is the reason that your friend killed himself, NOT because healthy, gay men often have vigorous, intense, and liberated sex lives.

Gay Philosopher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MJ,
>
> Not many people who know me would use either the
> term "sourpuss" or "negative" to describe me. In
> fact, you're the only one that I can think of,
> although you don't know me.
>
> If by "negative" you mean that you dislike that I
> point out gay.com's chat rooms and the
> male-seeking-male listings on Craigslist, I didn't
> create gay.com or Craigslist. I didn't write the
> content. I'm pointing out something that you may
> find "negative" (I hope that you do), but on the
> other hand, you may find these things to be
> "positive" expressions of "freedom." This view, I
> oppose.
>
> I wish that you would respond to my points, rather
> than going on and on with personal attacks based
> on some imaginary caricature of me that you have
> in your head.
>
> Steve

So Steve, what exactly is your problem with Craigslist and Gay.com?

Sonoma,

My problem with gay.com's chat rooms and the Craigslist posts is that they can and do cause irreversible harm.

It's bad enough to read about old males seeking 18 year old boys to "hook up" with. It's even worse to see pictures of exposed genitalia. But those pale in comparison to the tragedy of what happened to my friend, whom I'll call "Matt." He was born into a faithful and committed Mormon family, but realized that he was gay, was ostracized by his family, became depressed, and eventually "hooked up" with over 200 men through websites like gay.com and Craigslist, and wound up contracting HIV.

The same outcome could have happened had there never been those websites, but it would have been more difficult. I'm not talking about social oppression and discrimination. Those are mild compared to the difference between life and death. I don't want to see any more friends die, Sonoma.

The nature of the posts on Craigslist and elsewhere arises from exactly what ozpoof says: "By the time someone places an add on craigslist, they are ready to explode!" You're right, Sonoma, that there are a multitude of gay lifestyles (and lifestyles of any kind). I live one of them. It seems to be very different from the lifestyles that other gay males lead.

I believe that everyone should be able to live the lifestyle that he or she chooses, so long as it doesn't harm themselves or others. But the lifestyles associated with gay ghettos and gay bars do not, in my opinion, lead to positive outcomes. I don't know to what extent natural selection, heterosexism, social and legal controls, learning history, and individual variation determine how people live, but I do know that gay men suffer disproportionately compared to men, in general, if HIV, alone, is used as any indicator.

If we knew that gay marriage would change this situation, then we need it to be legalized everywhere right now. One day, we'll find out. However, it may turn out not to do much good to change the situation, and I personally don't know what might. But I do know that we can't give up.

To quote another gay neo-Mormon quoting Stephenie Meyer:

"But you see, just because we've been ... dealt a certain hand ... it doesn't mean that we can't choose to rise above -- to conquer the boundaries of a destiny that none of us wanted." - Edward Cullen, Twilight

Steve

Hi Munchy, :)

The guy at the ex-Mormon conference gets my presumption of sincerity because of his behavior--specifically, what I could infer from his speech, his body language, and the fact that while others cleared out of that large conference room, he stuck around. He wasn't a lemming, and put himself in what--for any of us--would be an uncomfortable situation, had our roles been reversed. I think that that's commendable and courageous, and I hope that the events that transpired will have some type of positive effect, that the seeds that Jeff and I planted will one day sprout and blossom.

I think I understand where Jeff was--and is--coming from, too, and I agree with Dane that anger is much better than depression and taking anti-depressants. I really, really hope that he's emerging into a better, happier life, but there are two important things to keep in mind. First, he didn't ask to be gay or to have an insane family. He's a nice and deadly intelligent young guy who was rejected by his family. Imagine what it might feel like to discover that your parents didn't want to have you, that you were an accident. (This happened to both Oprah and her friend Anna Mae Bullock, better known as Tina Turner.) Why should some people have to struggle with this, while others are born into warm, loving, nurturing families? And why should some people overcome seemingly massive adversity and become wildly successful, whereas others commit suicide? There are no easy answers, except that statistically, we know that most people will live simply mediocre lives, achieving neither any great success nor any dire humiliation. And then there are people like me who seem to have a lot going for them, but are unhappy, and think, "This isn't good enough!" Perhaps frustration has its own benefits, in some cases prompting one to take chances to try to get to where one wants to go.

To digress for just a moment, I've found a particular mental exercise helpful. Regardless of where I find myself emotionally, physically, professionally, socially, or "spiritually" on any given day, I can look around me--from that bouncing new baby and her parents, to teenagers studying together for a test, to friends gathered in a bookstore, to the homeless seeking shelter, to the high-powered and wealthy beyond imagination executives that I know--and remind myself: all of them--all of *us*--will one day die. All of us. No one escapes. Your title, status, wealth, and knowledge can't save you. The only variable is that it (presumably) won't happen all at once, and generally, age is the deciding factor (but sadly, not always). When you truly and fully realize that all of us are dead men and women walking, talking, warring, singing, writing, playing, drinking, thinking, watching, and caring for others, for a short span of time, then if you're anything like me, you understand that we're connected by a common endpoint. We don't know what--if anything--lies past it, but we do know that we've at least got this life for sure in which to do whatever it is that we're going to do, so why not do good rather than evil? Why not work to reduce the overall level of suffering? We're all in this together. Harm is never isolated to a single individual. It's a threat to all of us.

Munchy, in my personal opinion, provoking straights probably isn't the best strategy in the world. I'm not sure what it accomplishes, except possibly to incite condemnation and resentment at a level that formerly wasn't there. In a recent video, Christopher Hitchens said that people might want to cut down a bit on their drinking and smoking to prevent what happened to him--esophageal cancer--from happening to them. The interviewer thought that Chris had put it mildly, and Chris replied that if one is too loud and vociferous about it, people will tend to tune you out. I think that that was a profound insight that applies to many things. If you agitate continuously, people will eventually stop paying attention and remove themselves from your presence. You have to engage people, not alienate them, if you want to create change.

Stray Mutt, I don't know how many people who are gay don't want to be, but I'm not one of them. However, I definitely am not, and don't want to be, part of the Gay Lifestyle(tm) that I "see" around me. Where am I looking? Primarily, I look in two different places, and I point these out so that you can check them out for yourself. First, gay.com's chat rooms. Go there, wander around, and listen, or try to engage in conversation. What do these men talk about? Second, go to craigslist.org. Select any city, anywhere, although larger cities will give you a better idea. Let's pick Salt Lake City, say. Look at the male-seeking-male personals:

http://saltlakecity.craigslist.org/cgi-bin/personals.cgi?category=m4m

What do you find there?

I wish that not just the people paying attention to this thread, but everyone on the planet, would go to the link above, have a good look around, and make up their own minds as to whether what they see is acceptable or a bad idea. We have laws to protect children from exploitation, but once someone reaches the age of 18, all kinds of danger looms. I contend that what we see above is bad--that its ultimate end is sickness (both mental and physical) and death.

Sexual orientation will never become a non-issue so long as gay men seek out random sexual encounters and participate in some of the shocking things that you'll see if only you dare look. There are undoubtedly reasons for the behavior that we observe: oppression, biological drives, the lack of social controls analogous to what exists in the heterosexual sphere, etc. It's not that straight people universally hate gay people. Rather, they see outrageous displays of behavior, such as two young males having sex on a balcony while participants in a gay pride parade in San Francisco cheer them on, all with the intention of getting media attention and provoking straights.

I don't necessarily blame gay people for what they do. Oppression can lead to desperation. When parents reject their gay son, he seeks out whatever substitutes he can find, and due to a variety of reasons, these tend to be alcohol, drugs, the company of others who have been rejected and have similar problems, and hedonism as an escape mechanism. Tragically, these short-term "solutions" are illusions that often lead to devastating consequences, such as the fact that one in five gay males is HIV positive. Not 1%. Not 5%, but 20%!

I ask any young straight person here: What would it do to your dating life if you knew that one in five prospective dates had an incurable disease that could kill you?

My hope is that by giving gays the right to marry everywhere, recognizing that homosexuality is innate, and completely accepting gays and integrating them fully into society without prejudice would largely eliminate the self-destructive behaviors you can infer from browsing Craigslist. But my hope may be in vain. Natural selection produced lustful males, and choosy females. You'll note that HIV infection is virtually unknown among lesbians, but it's a serious threat in male-to-male relationships. In male-female pair-bonds, the female (along with cultural proscriptions) serves as a brake on a male's lust. But with two males, both highly lustful, there's nothing to prevent promiscuity. When catalyzed by the pain of ostracism and desperation, I hypothesize that the level of promiscuity increases even further, leading to the situation that we see, a 20% HIV infection rate among gay males. I should also mention that females tend to be more focused on the emotional aspects of a relationship, whereas males are more focused on the physical. Thus, one would expect to see a greater frequency of pair-bonds where at least one female is involved (i.e. with lesbians or heterosexuals) as compared to male-male pair-bonds, and that's exactly what we find. That means that long-term male-male relationships are rare compared to male-female or female-female relationships. Research shows that all things considered, being in a relationship is much better (for one's health, among other reasons) than not, and so this is a very important topic.

I don't believe that gay liberation should be about having the "right" to have promiscuous sex and transmit a fatal illness to an unsuspecting and already suffering victim, especially a young one with a whole lifetime ahead. I would call that the very apogee of evil. No, no one plans it out that way, but natural selection definitely hasn't helped us out, so we have to take countermeasures.

Stray Mutt, that's why we can't "just be ourselves." A predilection for sweets can lead to diabetes. We need far more controls (restraints) over male-to-male sexual behavior, not fewer. Sexual "freedom" is not a good idea for males in a world full of STD's, one so menacing that the moment that STD is mentioned in the context of gay men, everyone thinks only of one--HIV.

Dane, you're very right that we're only able to use our own "filters" (perspectives) to assess situations. These perspectives are influenced by our values, which are in turn decided largely by biology and learning history. This post of mine may infuriate some people; others may agree with it, but won't say anything so as to not provoke an attack. My own values--the highest ones being life and health--define the perspective through which I peer out at the world. We have to have the courage to call a spade a spade. If I'm biased or wrong, then I welcome correction, but if there's to be a correction, there will be a lot of explaining (not explaining away) to do regarding gay.com and Craigslist.

There's already enough suffering in the world without humans adding to it. In the end, I'm advocating a pacifistic, educational approach to social transformation whose endpoint will be the full acceptance and integration of gays into society. Anything less amounts to straight people allowing gay people to struggle and sometimes die because of willful neglect.

Does anyone want to live in a world like that? (Hint: We do.) If not, let's change it.

Steve

Being gay sort of rules that out for several reasons.It's illegal in many countries to even be gay. In many states and countries it is illegal to marry or even commit. You are an often hated minority who can hide if they want meaning by nature, many gay men are dishonest. We teach ourselves to be deceptive, or else we get bashed, disowned or rejected. I'm sorry if this offends, but it's not really our fault.

Being able to blend in often means NOT living with another man, acting "straight", which usually means not staring at dudes in public. How then does a gay man, with a testosterone driven sex drive, who does not have a partner close by, get sexual gratification? Usually by cruising, either in real life or places like craigslist. By the time someone places an add on craigslist, they are ready to explode!

You should also read some hetero adds. They can be worse.

Anyway, I too would love to settle down with a bloke who I would have as a friend. In a way I agree with Gay Philosopher. It can be difficult to find "non scene" men who want stability.

ozpoof Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> You should also read some hetero adds. They can be
> worse.
>

Or go to a straight singles bar and watch how straight men ogle women!

ozpoof Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Being gay sort of rules that out for several
> reasons.
>
> Anyway, I too would love to settle down with a
> bloke who I would have as a friend. In a way I
> agree with Gay Philosopher. It can be difficult to
> find "non scene" men who want stability.

Where do you live?!? Saudi Arabia? Salt Lake? When I hear gay men whine about not being able to "find non-scene men who want stability", I find it usually means that he's NOT ATTRACTED to the gay men he knows who DO want a stable relationship. "WHY CAN'T BRAD PITT JUST LOVE ME!!" WHAAA WHAAA WHAAA

Also MJ, thank you for every post here. Wanna form a group of Gay-exmo-Dannites? ;-)

Admittedly, I was looking in the wrong places when I lived in SF. When I lived in SF I would go out to the "scene" and look for "non-scene" people. There is less of a "scene" in Salt Lake to distract me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2010 04:27PM by MJ.

Thanks, Gay Philosopher(sic), for that time capsule look back at how things were back in the 70's. Luckily in the 21st Century, well adjusted gay men can live their lives without having to worry about what straight guys think about ANYTHING. In fact... I feel sorry for straight people, because they have to live their whole lives as heterosexuals. And everyone know what a nightmare it is when you try to match up the sex drive of a male human with that of a female.

Social change doesn't come from everyone learning a new truth and changing their minds. It comes as the older, prejudiced generation DIES OFF along with their stupid ideas.

Anyone who still thinks that there is such a thing as a "gay lifestyle" (as opposed to a multitude of gay lifestyles), has no business calling himself gay... much less a philosopher.

Do yourself a favor. Crawl out of the closet, start exercising and get in shape, and go get LAID! Also you need to find healthy gay men to spend time with out of the sack. You have much to learn, so shut up, listen and observe.