Yesterday, I was watching the History Channel and they did a one hour segment about the history of coffee. Okay, so I don't know jack didly about coffee and have only tried it once since leaving in 2007 and hated it.

But, I didn't realize that coffee houses were where people went to have stimulating conversations and debate back in the 17th and 18th centuries in Europe. Different coffee houses were known for particular topics and that the first newspapers started from people who wrote down the info discussed at those particular coffee shops and started publishing them so that everyone would know what was going on around town. The affect of coffee as a mental pick me up gets the brain working more efficently so thus, it made perfect sense to me why the Morg is bashing on coffee. Heaven forbid that people start thinking and socializing - good grief - it gave us the free press and could be thought of as a social media craze during its time.

I just may give coffee another chance now!

for any of the word of wisdom and other commandments from JS. It was a product of the 1830s...the theories about where the American Indians came from, the feelings about alcohol, etc, etc.

Also around that time, there were those who believed drinking anything hot was bad for you. Much of the WoW is recycled bad 19th century health fads.

Comfortably Numb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
so I don't know jack didly about
> coffee and have only tried it once since leaving
> in 2007 and hated it.

I am not a great fan of coffee, myself.... I am more of a tea drinker.
however, there are many different styles and blends of coffee and just because you dont like one style or blend, then you may well feel different with another style/blend.

Yeah, so I learned from the documentary. The only cup I tried was from an IHOP diner and that was obviously not the good stuff and was made the worst possible way.

I really like green teas - Brisk (Lipton) peach flavored green tea is my favorite.

I tell people I traded in my mormon temple recommend for Starbucks and BevMo cards.

I went back to school a few years ago to get that degree I wish I had gotten years earlier... and I spent many hours in coffee shops with fellow students doing as you described above.

This is one of those things that mormons think others respect them for; the reality is other people think them weird. Just the other day, my BIL was telling us how he "refused" to pass along a coffee decanter to the people down the row. Gimme a break.

Comfortably Numb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> But, I didn't realize that coffee houses were
> where people went to have stimulating
> conversations and debate back in the 17th and 18th
> centuries in Europe. Different coffee houses were
> known for particular topics...


Funny, I've been reading one of those papers first thing in the morning with coffee in hand for the past year or so. Been reading Addison's and Steele's "The Spectator". I'm guessing the History Channel made mention of them. Coffee houses in 18th century England were like the British pub of today.

Camille Paglia once observed that if we were to leave off of caffeine and nicotine we'd never see another great work of literature again.

I love coffee and tea. Aside from any religious ideologies maybe there are some risk factors to "hit drinks" in general according to new research.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2016/06/15/health/coffee-tea-hot-drinks-cancer-risk/index.html

I love coffee and tea. Aside from any religious ideologies maybe there are some risk factors to "hot drinks" in general according to new research.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2016/06/15/health/coffee-tea-hot-drinks-cancer-risk/index.html

Another 19th-century quack health movement believed hot beverages of any kind, including soup and plain hot water, were bad for the body. They claimed it cooked you from the inside.

Stray Mutt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another 19th-century quack health movement
> believed hot beverages of any kind, including soup
> and plain hot water, were bad for the body. They
> claimed it cooked you from the inside.


I have found it to be quite telling that all of these mormon teachings can be linked back to false beliefs of JS's time.

Take a twenty-something guy with a vivid imagination and an inclination toward fantasy, and have him create a new religion. It would probably be heavily influenced by sci-fi, video games, Internet rumors, conspiracy theories, TV, movies, New Age woo, the fad du jour and who knows what else.

If you want followers, if you want to lead them off in a different direction, you tap into what they already believe. That's what JS did in the 19th century.

The Word of Wisdom does not specifically say no coffee. Somewhere along the line didn't one of the prophets re-interpret hot drinks to mean coffee? Then one of them said soda was also bad. I'm not sure the obsession with drinks and where it came from.

But like about everything else, the WoW was just plagiarized.

The Word of Wisdom is a simple rewrite of the tenets of the Cold Water Society and the Temperance movement of the 1820s and 1830s, right down to eating less meat.

http://entreated.blogspot.com/2009_01_01_archive.html
scroll down to 1/10/09

http://mormonmatters.org/2008/12/26/temperance-movement-and-the-word-of-wisdom/

So it was someone else who decided coffee was too threatening.

I'll bet there are a ton of Mormons who keto. Word of Wisdom whaaaa?

I just read the first comment from an LDS person in the "entreated" Temperance blogspot link you sent, Heresy. It sums up a certain "mentality" shall we say? I don't know what coffee has to do with temperance, but ok. I see that it is linked to the movement. Interesting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2010 01:11PM by suckafoo.

Many members now realized that coffee and tea are not bad for you, and in fact can be good for you. As a result, many simply say that the word of wisdom is about obedience above all else. Its just another cause of cog-dis.

It always bothered me as a member that if I drank coffee, even decaf, I was evil. Yet I was allowed to chug down mt dew to my hearts content and still be in good standing!

First, I would guess that 95% of the active members never read it, and have no idea how it came about. (Post for another time!)

And it says nothing about coffee either.

The "hot drinks" comment was interpreted to mean: tea and coffee. (Someone else can help me recall who and when that happened - it was fairly early in the history, but not lived.)
Alcohol was used regularly by Joseph Smith Jr and Brigham Young and others.


And it doesn't say what kind of tea or what kind of coffee either. Nor was it a commandment initially. Not until about 1920 when Pres.Heber J Grant took it on. (Another post for another time.)

The fact is that the Word of Wisdom has nothing to do with health or diet. It did include some of the ideas of the 1830's in America, most of which have been shown to be incorrect.
This is 1800's ideas: tobacco, herbs for sick cattle, or rye for fowls, tobacco for bruises etc .

IT IS A LAW OF OBEDIENCE!
It was a health law of 1830's. Not today.

The Mormon religion requires obedience to it's laws, like any other religion that has so-called health laws, then are very old and lacking in any real current scientific factual claims.

It's about faith, spirituality, and obedience.
Every prophet, apostle, leader, member since Joseph Smith Jr. added their personal interpretation.

Here is the D&C Section that the so called: Word of Wisdom came from.
http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/89?lang=eng

It helps to remember that the Mormons were a segregated, isolated religious sect/unit initially. It was the predominate social, familial world they lived in. They didn't mesh will with their neighbors either.

Drinking coffee meant sending $ away from the ChurchCo circle.
In the 1970's a FP SM ltr told members that de-caf was OK
. TRUE!!!

That ltr has disappeared down the memory hole bc only us Olders recall it.

Someday I might request a copy from Mind Control Central!

I always figured that the real reason to ban Coffee, and Tea was that it couldn't be grown in Utah, so all the money being spent on them was heading out of State. Those funds were needed to help support the Theocracy.

The ban was from Joseph Smith who never made it to Utah, but it was absolutely about the Mormon's closed economy. That closed economy was a main reason they were so hated. They didn't play well with others.

I always thought that it was more of a suggestion from Joe, and didn't become a ban until after they arrived in Utah.

True. Joe's Word of Wisdom was more of a suggestion. From there it evolved to one sip of iced tea and you're practically tossed out.

My mom was a convert. Every morning I awoke to the aroma of the coffee percolator and grew to love that smell. She converted when I was 11. I drank my first cup of coffee 6 years later and have been enjoying it ever since. I have been given the stink eye by Mormons I know when they've seen me drinking coffee...or even better, a beer in a restaurant. I relish those moments.

The history of the 89th Section is a joke.literally, it was a joke that somehow caught on. Remember the story that Emma Smith did not like the men smoking their pipes in the house, and especially didn't like them spitting tobacco juice on the floor, which, it would seem, was a common thing back then. I have no idea why men would be gross enough to spit on the floor, but it was common, and not surprisingly, many women hated it. So she insinuated to Smith that, if he were a real prophet, he'd conjure up some sort of commandment from god that would make them quit. So he announced to the men that his wife wanted a revelation to make them quite smoking and spitting. They all had a good lark over that one, and the men reminded Smith that he needed to include something for the women to quit doing. He said that the women liked to sit around drinking tea and coffee, and so he added the hot drinks thingie. Some of the other stuff, though, who knows where it came from. Wheat for man? Barley for this, rice for the Chinese, or whatever.

Brigham Young was really tough on the women, and he liked to press them to do/not do certain things, like maybe sit around drinking tea whilst forgetting to get pregnant. But more weirdly, he and the other men drank a lot, including whisky, which was also a cottage industry and a church business. Every man drank beer. At some point, people began reading more and more into it, and leaders began restricting what you could consume. In the early 1900's, the church struggled with the concept of drinking beer, and came up with this really arbitrary thing that beer was bad, except for Danish-recipe beers, which they allowed to be sold even at church venues. But then in by 1919, when it became verboten and part of the temple recommend requirements. Notwithstanding, many members still ignored it, until leaders became more and more anal about it. I know from talking to relatives and other old people that, particularly in Europe, coffee drinking persisted for decades. And Scandinavians continued to drink porter because of its supposed health benefits, like iron for pregnant mothers.

And here we are. Today's church loves to put the squeeze on members, then react to their obedience or lack of it. Personally, I took so little interest in the WoW that, long before I quit the church, I'd drink coffee occasionally and not feel badly about it at all. Ditto beer. Then I'd avoid the temple as long as I could get away with it, because I really loathed being in the temple. Then when i was suspect because I had failed to get a recommend, so I'd sit through the two interviews and lie through my teeth, justifying it because of all the lies that were being pitched to us by leadership.

Nowadays, what do we find? Are tea and coffee bad for us? Nope, not according to most sources. They are either entirely neutral, or even somewhat healthy. Coffee is good for the large intestine and for the prostate (for them what have a prostate). And tea supposedly has multiple health benefits. I believe that, and so throw that right back at anyone who complains.

Oddly enough, in 1993 Spencer Whatzit Kimball said that caffeine-free coffee was fine for members to drink, but I challenge you to find information anywhere where the church said, "According to our prophet, you are all allowed to drink Sanka or Coffee Hag if you want." My wife's LDS royalty side of her family were all bishops and stake presidents, and every one of them drank caffeine-free coffee their whole lives.

Moral of the story: The 89th Section of the Doctrine and Crumblecake is total bullshit. But that's just me.

I read a lot of that a long time ago. The whole WoW incident just have just become an amusing story. Sounds more like Rick and Lucy than anything. Funny husband and wife stuff.


"Some of the other stuff, though, who knows where it came from."
When I read all about this a long time ago it was pointed out that there were lots of temperance movements targeting the same things back in that day and they started long before Joseph's revelation. So where did he get the other stuff? Copied it as usual.

When I was a kid and my mother got all testimonial, she always made a big point of saying that no one at the time knew coffee and tea were bad for you, but since Joseph knew that proved he was a prophet!

Had to laugh when she asked me where to get green tea pills as she heard they were good for you but was horrified a the idea of plunging a tea bag into hot water.

Mormons.

cludgie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The history of the 89th Section is a
> joke.literally, it was a joke that somehow caught
> on.
> Oddly enough, in 1993 Spencer Whatzit Kimball said
> that caffeine-free coffee was fine for members to
> drink, but I challenge you to find information
> anywhere where the church said, "According to our
> prophet, you are all allowed to drink Sanka or
> Coffee Hag if you want."
>
> Moral of the story: The 89th Section of the
> Doctrine and Crumblecake is total bullshit. But
> that's just me.


cludgie:

I recall the de-caf letter was read in the Seattle 1st ward when I was living there, mid 70's;

I moved away from 1st W in the late 70s, to Carnation the same yr as Mt. St. Helens...

in 1993 I was living in Carnation, so your time frame (was SWK profit then?) was wrong, Sorry

etaL SWK died in 1985 according to Wiki...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2021 11:30PM by GNPE.

He was the president in the 1970's, and the one who said that caffeine-free coffee was okay, after all. I don't get your timeline, because you already said that the letter was read in the 1970's. So where does it go off-track?

The number of people who heard the announcement are very few, and I have always wondered whether or not some local leaders just didn't agree to read it, or something.

The discrepancy lies in your dating the Kimball statement to 1993. Was it 1973?

Ooh, yeah. You're right. Sorry.

No worries. Your point was good, and important.

OTOH, Honesty & Kindness, along with Respect for others Fell Off the LDS / Mormon cart years ago...

I recall that in the early sixties, Postum was an acceptable beverage among the Mormons. Our scoutmaster always had his Postum when we went on campouts.

At a neighborhood Christmas party a couple of years ago, our next door very TBM neighbors were happily pouring regular flavor Coca Cola into glasses with plenty of ice in them. The wife turned to me and said:” We’re so excited: we’re allowed to drink Coke now!”
I just grinned, but I thought:” ALLOWED?!”

So I was doing a bit of research on Madame de Pompadour (to a large extent she is responsible for Sèvres china, Voltaire and a lovely shade of pink) and I ran into this. Street songs were also a way news was passed.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/dec/04/affair-fourteen-robert-darnton

What a fascinating read. I loved reading this bit of obscure history.

Also, reading it, how could I not think of the song Strange Fruit and the governments attempt to stop it being sung. Art sometimes comes with a sharpened edge.


Thanks, Susan. I love stuff like that.

It occurs to me that over the years various entities who seek to control the masses make a habit of convincing the people that participation in enjoyable pastimes is a bad for them.

People who are obedient to their leaders are conditioned to shun, punish and ‘educate’ anyone who dares to engage in an activity that used to be a part of life that made life a pleasure.

I love coffee
I love tea
I love the java jive
and it loves me
coffee and tea
and the java and me
I think I'll have another cup boys



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2021 02:50PM by thedesertrat1.

I have a theory, a hypothesis, that there was something else going on.

Mormons used to be a peculiar, a select, people because they practiced "the principle" of polygamy. By the 1920s the church had pretty conclusively abandoned that practice (with some minor exceptions) and the differences between Mormons and broader Christianity eroded.

Enter Heber J. Grant, a teetotaler obsessed with the WoW, and his transformation of informal "guidance" into a mandatory rule that the church has maintained ever since. Why? I think part of the answer is the need to replace polygamy as a practical means of differentiating Mormons from non-Mormons. It became a boundary, a social barrier, that kept Mormons unique in the eyes of the world and discouraged fraternization with the heathens.

Mormonism needs to be unique. It needs to be special, not just in doctrine but in praxis.

Mormons only need to continue insisting on "garments" to remain a peculiar people. Though it is true that garmies are not quite as visible as the WoW in most situations.

Yes, I thought about describing the WoW as comparable to circumcision and/or garments.

But those are, for everyone but EOd*, embarrassing to display openly. The thing about the WoW is that it becomes noticeable whenever people go out to eat or socialize with others. So the WoW is an externally visible difference between Mormons and non-Mormons.





*EOd should be spelled with a small "d" for reasons we all understand.

Because the 'd' doesn't stand for Dallas?

Yeah, I get that a lot.

I was thinking of Denmark, which is a very small country.





ETA: PS. He's up to 26 now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2021 09:38PM by Lot's Wife.

I remain ambivalent on the morphing from suggestion to commandment.

First, how can the word 'suggestion' be taken any other way? And obviously, until the trek westward, there was no reason to pontificate on the issue. It was rightly judged a temperance issue and the excesses of alcohol and tobacco were probably on display frequently.

Neither the words 'coffee' nor 'tea' appear in Sec. 89. Mormon ghawd is often found wanting in terms of precision and understanding.

And then the Saints get to Deseret. And now their vices really, really cost! And it takes a lot of hard currency out of circulation because the jobbers back east obviously don't want Deseret dollars. So gold and silver flow out at a greater rate than they flow from east to west. And so Deseret is going broke and they can't borrow from China and printing more Deseret Dollars doesn't help in the negative balance of trade.

So...

Per the Church website, (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-89-the-word-of-wisdom?lang=eng):


"Although the Word of Wisdom was received on 27 February 1833, its acceptance by individual members of the Church was gradual. On 9 September 1851, some eighteen years after it was given, the Patriarch to the Church, John Smith, delivered a talk in general conference on the Word of Wisdom. During his address, President Brigham Young arose and proposed that all Saints formally covenant to abstain from tea, coffee, tobacco, whiskey, and “all things mentioned in the Word of Wisdom”
  ("Minutes of the General Conference,” Millennial Star, 1 Feb. 1852, p. 35).

"The motion was accepted unanimously and became binding as a commandment for all Church members thereafter."


I believe this mormon weasel language, AGAIN! Note, BY proposed that all the Saints there present covenant to abstain from tea, coffee, tobacco, whiskey..."

And the church has promoted that into a commandment from ghawd.

But this totally flies in the face of the continued development of the nation of Deseret and then the State of Utah. BY was himself a brewer/distiller, and commissioned vineyards in the Salt Lake area and in the south of Utah.

Wine for the sacrament, to the fleece the non-mormon visitors! But... “The church leaders saw wine not only to be used for the sacrament and medicine, but everything extra was expected to be exported, but it didn’t end up that way.

“Cultivating wine grapes probably caused more problems than the early church leaders expected. Not only were they growing a profitable cash crop in Southern Utah, but alcoholics as well.”
  https://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2021/01/09/dld-a-brief-history-on-dixie-wine/#.YEmF9WhKiUk

Poor Heber. He believed in the Word of Wisdom. He'd preach a strong sermon at a stake conference on its value and then go home for lunch with the SP, with beer and wine flowing and tobacco afterward. He often lamented of this.

And then, YAY! Heber became the prophet in 1918 and now that he had the reins, enforcement of the WoW was the order of the day. But even then, the older Saints, accustomed to their coffee and beverages of choice were given leeway regarding their TRs.

The church's version, cited supra, is total nonsense.

It's the "stimulating conversations and debate" that I miss the most. That belongs to my past. My father was a professor, my uncle a successful business consultant, my cousin a genius inventor, my mother was into literature, my aunts were teachers, and my brother was a comedian. I miss those lively conversations around the dining table, and the serious, deep ponderings around the fire-in-the-grate. We asked the important questions, and made the win-win decisions. I think I'm the only one around the table now that still believes in the common good, science, love, and basic human rights. (Strange, that I believe in so many other things, now I no longer believe in Mormonism.)

I do find that in managing my present Mormon relationships, the less I say, the better (and no one learns anything).

That’s a nice, thoughtful post.

Your last line rings all my bells. Love that post. My family full of masters and doctorate degrees talks about calling----except for one BIL who is so fun when we aren't near anyone else.

I rarely say anything when with the family as they don't like my current calling, haha. It's all so stilted and castrated now, the conversation.