Am I the only one sad that this thread locked? :(

MJ: Sorry, wrong link. I meant:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,658337,658410#msg-658410

The "peeing in your cheerios" comment was in response to that one.

I think that it's time for us all to masturbate and go to sleep!

Agreed. Good night.

Holy fu.... I can't believe I read the entire last thread...

LOL @ fidget, well said! ... I read about 80% .... but I have my own issues ...
Mornin!

And I am not going to let a prude, gay or straight, push into my life and tell me I shouldn't be proud or tell me that I should be ashamed to talk about it. If I wanted that, I would be a Mormon.

Oh the 9 men in one day means 9 different sexual encounters, it is likely that I had more at one of the pool sex parties, but that would be as a massive orgie with me in the middle of 20 or 30 men, all having sex together.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2012 09:38AM by MJ.

What, more prudes?

Till then, yes, you're being a prude. I was not graphic, I simply talked about how many sexual partners I have had, the same way someone may brag that they only had one all their life. Would you rant that it was over share, etc. if someone was saying they only had one sexual partner?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2012 09:58AM by MJ.

sexual history--rather than on an anonymous forum.

I think we could have fun with it!

I think there's a few threads you need to catch up on...

Till, then, you can not run your own life, I will be damned if you'll run mine.

BTW, if you give an opinion and you can't back it up with some evidence or experience, it will justifiably be dismissed for the ignorance that it is.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2012 09:48AM by MJ.

Been in the "fight" for 29 years--talk about a HUGE mind fuck.

I was thinking about "normal." I just talked to my ex--as I've been trying to catch a mouse for days now--and it is slowly turning on my kitchen floor. I put a bucket over it. He will take care of it when he comes home.

My husband has worked the same job for 30 years in Cache County. He keeps our old cars running--for our kids to drive. He will be putting in a heater coil for our son this week. He is putting a metal roof on the house at this time. He doesn't know how to dress--so his old boyfriends and I help him pick clothes. You should see his bedroom--I won't even go into it.

The neighbors can't help themselves--but they adore him. He is always the friendly one. I'm the reserved one. People in the ward were beyond shocked when they found out he is gay--but even so, they can't help being friends with him. I'll be sitting in the house working and I'll hear his voice again--talking to yet another neighbor.

He is blonde (part gray now) and blue-eyed. And my younger sister says he is much better looking at 55 than he was when we married 28 years ago.

He has an "outdoor" job--but is a supervisor. All his workers adore him--even the mormon woman (who attends the temple and church) and goes to see movies with my ex--even though she is married. Her husband doesn't mind as he knows my ex.

He could pass for a 'NORMAL' guy any day of the week--and he has had hundreds of sexual partners and he will tell you he doesn't know MOST of their names.

Even the single girls who never married from our singles ward (and we were married 28 years ago)--still invite him to dinner at after church dinners on Sunday, but he doesn't go.

He is as NORMAL-APPEARING as they come.

It is who he is. He doesn't have to "pretend" to be normal to get the straights to like him. My family all really like him.

He left me in January 1996--came back in July, left again on November 9, 1996. We have made a journey you can't even begin to imagine--and you are just starting out. Lucky for us that we didn't end up like many ex gay/straight marriages do. We have made it work.

Talk to me in 20 years and we'll see how well you are doing. If looking normal in Utah Valley made all the great changes.

My ex's sisters adore him, but they are still mormon--and they still don't accept the idea of gay marriage. Let alone the fact, one of his sisters is a lesbian--but married and in her 60s. She still thinks we are deluded--that her way is the right way. She is in a marriage for all intents and purposes--but they just coexist.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2012 09:51AM by cl2.

"he has had hundreds of sexual partners and he will tell you he doesn't know MOST of their names." Sounds like my kind of guy <wink>. I never even asked the name of most of my sexual partners.

I am proud of my sexual history, I had a good time, nobody go hurt unless they were for some reason expecting more than was promised.

I am not going to let some prude, gay or straight, pass judgment and tell me that I shouldn't talk about it. And yes, trying to say I should not talk about it or brag about it IS BEING JUDGMENTAL no matter how much the prude whines that it isn't.


But honestly, I don't think anything anyone says will get trough to that one, lots of people have tried lots of different ways and he always has some reason they are wrong and he is right, even though he has NOTHING to back up his opinions with.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2012 10:00AM by MJ.

that we won't be able to check in on him in 20 years . . .

Life sure has taught me a FEW lessons--

You never know about my ex--he may have been one of the anonymous guys. If I told you his name--and you had asked his name--you'd know INSTANTLY who my ex is. He has spent A LOT of time in SLC.

I always thought even my children would learn from my mistakes--but they haven't. So--I guess we just have to stand back and watch while Xyandro and Josh Weed try to figure it out for their generation. Thank goodness there are those who didn't hide who they were--or no strides would have been made in the fight for gay rights.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2012 10:09AM by cl2.

I really didn't think someone who is gay who just came out would have these views.

Here's my 2 cents observations, not judgment:

The gay people I know who have entered into middle age have given up the promiscuous lifestyle. Not unlike straights, they want deeper relationships and some long for families. I have 3 gay friends from college and 2 have adopted kids and are in long-term relationships. The 3rd is struggling with substance abuse. IMO he is trying to fill the emotional emptiness that promiscuity does not fill.

I don't think promiscuity is healthy over the long-term for anyone. Humans weren't built to be cut off from each other having shallow anonymous contact only, they need deep, long-term emotional ties in order to be happy.

small sample, broad conclusions.

Outcast, that is a pretty bold statement.

You've overlooked the simple fact that in 99.999% of cases, heterosexual society has completely denied LGBTs any sort of familial relationship for as many generations as you care to name. Heterosexual society then thinks the problem is "gay promiscuity is the reason so many LGBT people are unhappy" and refuses to own its culpability in the crime.

Here is where I call you on your $#!t. If het society creates the situation where LGBT people can not form any sort of visible, socially accepted relationships, and are hounded out of family, town, existence no matter what sort of relationship we DID try to create, and are forbidden any publicly-acknowledgeable outlet for deep, long-term emotional ties, then what did you think was going to result?

Of course people, being human, are going to go looking for some other sort of human contact no matter how furtive, fleeting or tenuous, and will find it, NO MATTER HOW SHALLOWLY THEY ARE FORCED TO BEHAVE ACCORDING TO RULES INVENTED BY HETEROSEXUAL SOCIETY. Those rules are still in effect today in most of the world but are especially pernicious in cultural $#!tholes like Iran, Pakistan, Poland, Russia, Utah, Idaho, and several other U.S. states.

Did you get all that?

Heterosexual society created the situation, blamed the victim for the situation, and then triumphantly pointed self-righteous fingers at the lowly de-familied kweers and said "There, see? You see?!? LOOK at their DEPRAVITY! They CRAVE what we have but they JUST CAN'T STOP THEMSELVES!!!!"

It's a win-win situation all the way around for the het team, isn't it? Too bad for heterosexual society LGBT people just are not buying that bull$#!t any more. You don't get to say "well you homos have acquired a few of your rights, so why aren't you happy yet?" It doesn't work that way.

The reality is that we create our own family situations, which may or may not resemble hetero family situations. This is a phenomenon which most heteros, accustomed to seeing the concept of "family" only one way, cannot comprehend on any level. Heterosexuals who take the time to really dig into LGBT culture quickly learn that regardless of whether you recognize the pattern or not, it does not mean the pattern does not exist.

LGBT families are bound together by the deep, long-term emotional ties you note. Most of heterosexual society simply doesn't understand that to the LGBT person, many of whose blood family have rejected us on more than one level, "family" is comprised of elements that go unrecognized, thus unnoticed, by heterosexuals.

Simple truths about LGBT sexual freedom that most heterosexuals with marginal exposure to the gay world have always intentionally or unintentionally misconstrued, misinterpreted, or misunderstood (or categorically refused to acknowledge):

* casual sex has little or nothing to do with any need to build deep, long-term emotional ties, but in fact casual sexual encounters do occasionally become deep, long-term emotional ties, frequently with no more sexual interaction.

* casual sex has little or nothing to do with LGBT family structures, which often but not always have been constructed to exclude casual sexual encounters, for several reasons which I will not go into.

* infrequently, LGBT families have been constructed so that sexual encounters stay within the family: but unlike similar heterosexual arrangements, no incest or adultery is involved.

* casual sex is no longer seen as a blanket response replacement for intimacy-loss, familial unit, or psychological shortcoming without taking into account all other contributing factors by anyone in the mental health professions.

In short, such broad-brush characterizations as you have made are not a defensible analysis. As lulu noted, your sample is not big enough to make such conclusions valid.

I can't tell from your post whether you agree or disagree with my statement that humans need deep, long-term emotional ties.

You seem pissed off for some reason. What did I say that angers you?

A couple of cents of my own:

The gay couple on Modern Family has gone a looooong way to allay American homophobia.

That couple would not be on TV today if not for some very hard-core activism from the past. Larry Kramer and ACT UP, for example.

Human

It seems like some have a real problem with sexually free people because it's "not normal" or "society frowns upon it."

People are worth more than their sexual experiences and genitals (Thanks for that, Ana). If society looks down on people with multiple partners, then society is wrong. As long as all parties are consenting adults (or whatever the age limit is) and being responsible, it shouldn't be an issue.

It's just sex.

Maybe some people want to experience more encounters than others. Maybe a person just got out of a long-term relationship and wants to make up for lost time. Maybe a person isn't ready to settle down but still wants a fufilling sex life.

Is it polite to graphically and loudly give the details of your latest encounter within earshot? Probably not, but that's part of the chance you take when going out in public.

I was VERY sexually promiscuous when I was younger. It was a lot of fun, I met some interesting people that I am still friends with to this day, and I learned a lot. If someone wants to look down his or her nose at me for being true to myself and my desires, fuck 'em. I am more than my sexual experiences.

OK, I thought about not commenting on this, but I obviously have decided to go for it.

Xyandro, you say you're not judging other gays, but I think you are. No, I'm not going to list out all the links to comments where I and point out judgemental comments, but you have stated things like you believe gays should act more moderately, more acceptably so that modern society will be more accepting of you, it's the idea of the slow change, introducing the new to the old slowly.

It doesn't work.

A couple of points:
- Who decides what this moderation should be? Who decides what the acceptable middle ground should be. I'll give you a hint, it won't be you.
- Do you think this method hasn't been tried before? That Black people didn't try to act more "white" in an attempt to be more accepted? It wasn't until they finally said, we are who we are, get over it and accept us for that, that they finally started making headway... and they still fight today. Your way suggests that they should put on white face make-up to so that they can hope for equal pay. Should all women who want equal pay act more masculine, have short hair cuts and dress in ways to hid their femininity? No, of course not, that would be silly. So, why should gays act more "straight", or lessening things that come to them naturally, just to gain some hoped for acceptance.
- Stop and take the emotion out of things and look at what MJ and the others are telling you. Are they disrespecting you? Of course they are. Think of the war veteran who has been in the trenches when a young soldier comes up with all his "new" ideas, brandishing them around like they know better. That's what you are to them. You could have said, hey, what if we tried to act more moderately to gain more acceptance? How has that worked out? and then shut up and listened to those who have gone before you. But you instead decided to be hurt and yes, offended when they were gruff and direct. Instead of asking why, you've just decided that they are "old" and you're "new". They deserve your respect, even if you feel like they aren't giving it to you. I respect the veterans around me *automatically*, in my book, they have to "earn" my disrespect and most have to work very hard before I will disrespect someone who has fought the battles before me. It takes a bit of a thick skin sometimes, but there is wisdom there that should not just be set aside simply because you think you're the "new" generation.
- Do you really think that the acceptance that gays are slowly getting today comes from gays acting moderately? I've got news for you, it's not. It's from having openly gay people living their lives out in the open, proud to be seen for who they are. It hasn't been easy. In fact for many it's been terrifying. They are on TV, being treated normally, while being as flamboyant as they can be, so that hopefully people will see the flamboyant as normal and as accepted. Do you really think that Will & Grace should have dropped Jack as a character and Will never dated? Should Ugly Betty not have had the flamboyant and obvious Receptionist (sorry, his name escapes me at the moment), What about what is probably one of the best depicted couples on TV right now in "Modern Family". Do you honestly think that they named "The New Normal" that way for kicks? They are fighting the battle on the airwaves showing Gay people out in the open being treated normally, no matter how straight or flamboyant as they may be.

Keep in mind that:
"Haters" and bigots hate you because you are different, it is an arbitrary difference and they will hate you all the more for it. Even while they sit in locker rooms (did you not attend high school????) and brag about their sexual exploits, you are never supposed to talk about yours because you are practicing moderation. While you are practicing moderation, they are celebrating their victory and the moment you step out of line they will remind you that you should be more moderate than they are.
Stereotypes are evil. They are wrong. Read that again, it is the Stereotype that is evil, not the person who happens to act that way. It is never good to say that you should not act a certain way because it perpetuates a stereotype. What you should do is remind people that the stereotype is what is wrong, not the person who acts to "type". If you have a problem with someone acting "stereotypical" YOU have a problem, not the people who are being themselves.

These are my two cents. Take them for what they are worth. I hope that if someone ever discriminates against me (I'm a "stereotypical" overweight white male) that I will have the courage to remain who I am, to not cave to bigotry. By acting more "moderate" or acceptable, and not being true to who you are, you are caving and letting the bigots tell you want is acceptable.

+1 Finally Free!

I have stayed out of this, but I must say that was incredibly insightful and wise. If you have to put up a front you are not free and you are not equal.

The drag queens started gay rights. The hippies ended the war. It was the 'uppity' blacks that did away with discrimination.

And where are all those throughout history that just blended in the best they could in order to make others feel comfortable in their bigotry? We're still looking for their legacy...

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2012 11:45AM by blueorchid.