Today I was out with my family eating some lunch and my Father asks me what I am doing tonight. I said I am not sure why? He said do you want to come help shovel snow at the church. I gave a pretty good laugh and said no why would I want to do that. He said that he was in charge of it and he can't get people to help. I told him that he didn't have to do this and he can say no to them. He said well someone has to do it. I then said why the heck are they getting a 55 year old man to do the walks anyways it should be a young guy that does it.

Later I sent him a text thanking him for lunch. I also mentioned in the text I would help him shovel the walks. I am more than willing to help him shovel his own walks but I am not up for doing the churches.

I mean if I help him do the church walks then when does it stop. Next he will ask me to do some other stupid thing at the church let set up chairs or something. I am not the one that signed up for that stuff. He can say no to them if he wants and he does not have to drag me into is so called service.

Here he made me out to look like the bad guy infront of the rest of the family and it really pissed me off!

I probably would do the same unless you have reason to believe he isn't up to the task. if he is likely to have heart attack, I'd probably go. Otherwise, he offered. Let him do it.

Difficult one. Or is it? Just say: "I'll do a swap, Dad. I'll do your walks at home, whilst you do the church walks."

These are the kinds of things that would be decided in church meetings at a mainstream church...who does it, how often if it is a multi-day snowstorm, if you hire someone what do you pay him, etc. Mormons are cheap. No way would they want the tithing money to go to this type of labor. I agree that I would not help my dad do walks at the church but would help him at his home.

He put you on the spot and you stood up for yourself. What else could you have done? I also think it was a nice touch to offer to shovel out at his house while he did the church. It shows that you care about him and you aren't rejecting his needs, just his venue. I do think that 55 is not too old to be shoveling, unless he has a health condition. Making your parent feel like a little old person rarely helps. However, you are right absolutely right that it should be the teens - 30-somethings doing the work. Problem is, they are the least committed demographic in the Morg and most likely to dodge the requests. Maybe you made him think with that comment, at least.

CA girl Wrote:
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> He put you on the spot and you stood up for
> yourself. What else could you have done? I also
> think it was a nice touch to offer to shovel out
> at his house while he did the church. It shows
> that you care about him and you aren't rejecting
> his needs, just his venue. I do think that 55 is
> not too old to be shoveling, unless he has a
> health condition. Making your parent feel like a
> little old person rarely helps. However, you are
> right absolutely right that it should be the teens
> - 30-somethings doing the work. Problem is, they
> are the least committed demographic in the Morg
> and most likely to dodge the requests. Maybe you
> made him think with that comment, at least.

I agree. I only made the comment in case he did have a medical problem. My dad died of heart disease at that age and I wouldn't have let him shovel the walks knowing his condition. However, most 55 year olds are in good health. I am older than that and am capable of hard work and if I volunteer for something, I don't expect someone else to help me out. What I would do if I were him is call the bishop and tell him that nobody will help and that I can't or won't do the whole thing. Let the bishop get some more volunteers.

...for demanding free walk-shoveling in addition to all its other ever-decreasing demands of the sheeple.

You did two good things, Rambo:

1) You kindly offered to assist your own father in shoveling *his* sidewalks.

2) By refusing to assist your father in shoveling the *church's* sidewalks, you set a good example of how to "just say 'NO'" to being taken advantage of.

It is unfortunate that since in your father's mind, the church is always right, he has to make you out as the bad guy instead of the church.

Nevertheless, you did the right thing!

Only Mormons don't understand that.

If I could figure out how to make them understand that I would be god. Instead I'm just the dinosaur son of his.

"what are doing tonight?" is "Why do you ask?"

It's always a set up that masks a hidden agenda. But Mormons are experts at hidden agendas just like they are experts at boundary violations.

He could have asked "Would you help me shovel the church sidewalks tonight?" But he already knew the answer.

You did fine.

My dad is one of the best people in the world. No longer TBM, but a genuinly good person.

Our neighbor saw that he was having some remodeling done at the house. At the time, there was a law that said we had to put a spark arrester on the chimney if the house had any remodel over $1000. The neighbor call the inspectors office, and while apologizing profusely, he attached the mandated citation to the garage.

My dad bought the spark arrester and attached it.

He bought a second and took it to the neighbor and offered to install it for free.

I think the church is horrible. I hate it in so many ways.

If they asked me to shovel (especially if my dad asked), I'd do it. I'd even fly to my dad's house, and shovel. I would not need to be asked twice.

The irony is too beautiful to miss. They ask you to shovel, and you do it, with no questions asked...as a non-mormon. They pay you nothing. You do it without thought of reward. Then, go back to the house and enjoy a warm brandy!

Where does your dad live? Maybe I'll go up and shovel for him.

I've learned to trust in this old addage.

It doesn't work as well to catch a kid sneaking a cookie and let him eat it while you explain why you might not let him get away with it next time.

A mormon example would be to entertain offisive mormon dropins with milk, cookies, and compliments while mentioning you'd appreciate a phone call before next month's HT visit.

Another morg example. It sends a stronger message to refuse to accept a Rice Crispy plate of goodies than to take it, say thank you, and say you don't want church contact in the future.

So Rambo could have pitched in and helped her dad and told him all about how it's unfair to expect members to shovel snow. But this would have sent a mixed message, "I don't like how the church imposses on people, but I'll let them continue to impose on me even though I'm no longer mormon."

The above sets a bad example for dad. It doesn't show him that Rambo is to be respected for her choices and it doesn't help him see that saying no is always an acceptable option.

TUrning down unreasonable requests does NOT make you a jerk, even if the request comes from your own father.

The problem is that your father cannot say NO to a cult which exploits him. But that is not your problem and you should not be exected to play their game.

Unfortunately, the exertion of snow shovelling CAN bring on a heart attack.

Your father needs to turn down this lousy "calling" and tell the church to bring in professional services. Lord knows, he no doubt pays enough in tithing.

You're not a jerk at all. You're asserting your boundaries and not caving to social pressure. That can sometimes be difficult after a lifetime of being a Mormon yesman. Good for you!

I would have used it as a teachable moment though. I would have pointed out that a church that rakes in the most money, per member, of any U.S. church, that does not have a paid clergy, organist, or staff, and that apparently has enough money to construct a multi-million dollar mall, can well afford to hire snow removal people. Church leaders just don't care enough about their members to do so. Very Christian of them.

The only exeption, as Bona Dea pointed out, would be if your dad has health issues. Then I would have pointed out the same things while helping him shovel. Then I would have had a chat with the bishop in which I pointed out that if my frail dad were ever harmed by doing physical labor for the church, the bishop, along with the church, would come to rue the day he was assigned that particular calling.

Summer Wrote:
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and that apparently has enough money to
> construct a multi-million dollar mall,

Multi-BILLION.. even worse. :P

I'd help him out, but I'd also tell him that you're there for him and not for the church. You're there because you don't want him to injure himself for a church that takes in millions from each ward in tithing, but returns just a meager percentage back to that ward and demands that it's members perform upkeep on the building that SHOULD be handled by professionals with the proper equipment. Does the church even have a snow blower? I'm guessing probably not. You'll be lucky if they even provide shovels.

After helping your dad I'd call the bishop up on the phone and give him an earful about making your 55 year old father hand shovel the church sidewalks.

SanAntonioBlue Wrote:
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> I'd help him out, but I'd also tell him that
> you're there for him and not for the church.
> You're there because you don't want him to injure
> himself for a church that takes in millions from
> each ward in tithing, but returns just a meager
> percentage back to that ward and demands that it's
> members perform upkeep on the building that SHOULD
> be handled by professionals with the proper
> equipment. Does the church even have a snow
> blower? I'm guessing probably not. You'll be lucky
> if they even provide shovels.



>
> After helping your dad I'd call the bishop up on
> the phone and give him an earful about making your
> 55 year old father hand shovel the church
> sidewalks.

I don't know how old you are, but as someone who is older than the OP's father, I wouldn't appreciate my child calling the bishop and making an issue of my age. Unless the guy has a medical condition, a 55 year old isn't exactly ancient, is capable of doing hard work and doesn't need his kid speaking up for him.He isn't senile as far as we know.Like I said, I am older, female and no superwoman but I am capable of shoveling walks. The difference between me and the OP's father is that I don't work for free. Just saying.

Risking a total beating on this one.

I think you were right to refuse because you don't go to that church but I lived in a small community growing up where there were many small churches. People of all faiths got out and helped clear the paths. Parking Lots may have been a different story at some churches but still, I have seen a many of tractors with blades shoveling parking lots.

The difference was:

Those people WANTED to help out the church they belonged to. There were usually volunteering before the need to ask arose.

Some things can be handled by a faithful membership but some things need to be left to a hired crew. Money should not be the driving force in these decisions.

If my dad asked me to shovel the church area, I'd say not interested. If he wants to be a chump for the church, have at it.

getting back to this business about 55 being too old to shovel?
good hell, maybe 75 is a bit old, but 55? no way.

libby Wrote:
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> If my dad asked me to shovel the church area, I'd
> say not interested. If he wants to be a chump for
> the church, have at it.
>
> getting back to this business about 55 being too
> old to shovel?
> good hell, maybe 75 is a bit old, but 55? no way.

Totally agree. I am a 61 year old female and I shovel the walks everytime it snows. Unless he has medical issues 55 isn't that old. Geez people. See how you feel a few years from now.You'd think we were talking about some old geezer who can hardly get around. When I mentioned my dad, he had already had one heart attack and was not expected to live for long. Sure I would have helped him. I would also help my 25 year old nephew who has a serious repiratory condition. The issue is fitness and health, not age and 55 isn't ancient..

You are turning down a golden moment of showing your unconditional love for your Dad. It doesn't hinge on whether or not he has a health condition and needs your help. It doesn't hinge on whether the church has or does not have snow blowers or younger people able to help.

Think for a minute. Why didn't your Dad call some of these younger ward members? Why did he call you? I'm betting he called you because he thought he could count on you to help him even if you disagree with his beliefs.

Even if your Dad only called you because he wanted you there-- let's say he's strong, fine, and can do the whole job alone--that in and of itself is an invitation to a golden moment and you are missing it.

That's the lofty part, now here's the juicy part. Imagine the inner joy you can experience as you shovel their church out of compassion for your Dad, when you're supposed to be under the control of Satan, evil, selfish, offended and probably-wanted-to-sin. Wave at each passing car and grin broadly.

It's not the same at all if you do his walks at home while he does the church alone. That's lonely and emphasizes the fact that (in his mind) he "lost" his son for eternity. Compassion and empathy would have you trying to think like he thinks. He envies the other men who get to do things with their sons, enjoy that generational comraderie.

I guarantee that when your Dad has passed away, you'll regret disappointing him when he kinda thought you two could have a day working together and the other people in the ward could see what a good person you still are.

The other posters are all right about you having every right to draw your borders, etc, etc, teach him something, etc, etc, but really, what matters in the end is the love. People over things. People over religion. Your Dad over and in spite of the stupid cult.

Anagrammy

I dissagree. My father knows I am a nice person and I don't have to prove it to him. The point is if I go help him with this thing that I did not volunteer for then who knows what else he will ask me to do for the CHURCH.

I am done doing things for the church. I think my father hopes I'll come back into activity if I do service for the church.

I heard my Dad had 5 other people there helping him out. It still took them about an hour and it was freaking cold outside. My dad is healthy enough to do the walks but the point is he shouldn't have to. The church makes enough freaking money to hire someone to do it. Sorry people that think I should of helped him it just that I am sick of being a jump and being used by the church.

It's like the church is still trying to get my time, talents, and possesions. Through my family and I am not going to let them do this to me.

I am more than willing to help my parents with other things and I think I made it very clear in my text that I will help them out with there personal things but I don't want anything to do with the church.

anagrammy and I'll tell you why: His father DOESN'T have to shovel snow at the church!!!!

Nobody has a gun to his father's head making him do it and ultimately his father wants to do this because he supports the mormon church. By supporting his father, Rambo supports his father's goals, which in turn is to support the church. Why? Hmm. Because someone asked him to at church and/or he volunteered. This helps god you see? And that further's the church's mission. The forever family which is the payback and is a crock of crap to get mormons to do whatever they are told to do. The list of what mormons will do if a mormon leader tells them to do it is unbelievably long and ridiculous. Everyone on the board can tell you their horror story and I'm sure you yourself have a few or you wouldn't be on these boards.

Rambo doesn't mind helping his father, but he minds that his father wants to help out the church when the church has millions of $ and is taking advantage. Rambo is also probably pissed they are brainwashing his father into this given his age etc and by saying no to his father, Rambo feels he looks like a loser to his family. Its a no win situation EVERY TIME YOU DEAL WITH PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN THE CULT. But this is his family, so what can he do?

I have been in this situation like Rambo as has half the board and it sucks. Its abusive and its brainwashing as its worse.
"Pay your tithing before feeding your family and paying the rent or even getting an operation." But that's faith promoting...see? Anyone standing ourside the cult will tell you that this is CRAZY!

By serving the church leadership you are serving god and your family will be blessed and y'all be in heaven in the hereafter. I wouldn't doubt that Rambo's dad holds the hope that his son will one day come back to the church and bla bla bla. No disrepect to Rambo's dad, but this is the mind game the church plays on you and it works because the ideal of a forever family is something most everyone finds attractive. AND IT IS A CHAIN THAT NEVER LETS YOU GO! The more you play by their rules, the more you get sucked in until one day you find yourself wearing wool and saying "baa."

The church leadership doesn't care who shovels snow as long as it is done by someone they don't have to pay. The blessing lie is just another trick they use to get free labor and worse, people WILLINGLY rush to do their bidding because of false promises.

So its important that Rambo stand up and say NO. But at the same time say "But I'll help you take care of your needs, Dad."

Sometimes saying NO is the hardest thing to do. That's REAL LOVE.

Lost Wrote:
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> anagrammy and I'll tell you why: His father
> DOESN'T have to shovel snow at the church!!!!
>
> Nobody has a gun to his father's head making him
> do it and ultimately his father wants to do this
> because he supports the mormon church. By
> supporting his father, Rambo supports his father's
> goals, which in turn is to support the church.
> Why? Hmm. Because someone asked him to at church
> and/or he volunteered. This helps god you see? And
> that further's the church's mission. The forever
> family which is the payback and is a crock of crap
> to get mormons to do whatever they are told to do.
> The list of what mormons will do if a mormon
> leader tells them to do it is unbelievably long
> and ridiculous. Everyone on the board can tell
> you their horror story and I'm sure you yourself
> have a few or you wouldn't be on these boards.
>
> Rambo doesn't mind helping his father, but he
> minds that his father wants to help out the church
> when the church has millions of $ and is taking
> advantage. Rambo is also probably pissed they are
> brainwashing his father into this given his age
> etc and by saying no to his father, Rambo feels he
> looks like a loser to his family. Its a no win
> situation EVERY TIME YOU DEAL WITH PEOPLE WHO
> BELIEVE IN THE CULT. But this is his family, so
> what can he do?
>
> I have been in this situation like Rambo as has
> half the board and it sucks. Its abusive and its
> brainwashing as its worse.
> "Pay your tithing before feeding your family and
> paying the rent or even getting an operation." But
> that's faith promoting...see? Anyone standing
> ourside the cult will tell you that this is
> CRAZY!
>
> By serving the church leadership you are serving
> god and your family will be blessed and y'all be
> in heaven in the hereafter. I wouldn't doubt that
> Rambo's dad holds the hope that his son will one
> day come back to the church and bla bla bla. No
> disrepect to Rambo's dad, but this is the mind
> game the church plays on you and it works because
> the ideal of a forever family is something most
> everyone finds attractive. AND IT IS A CHAIN THAT
> NEVER LETS YOU GO! The more you play by their
> rules, the more you get sucked in until one day
> you find yourself wearing wool and saying "baa."
>
> The church leadership doesn't care who shovels
> snow as long as it is done by someone they don't
> have to pay. The blessing lie is just another
> trick they use to get free labor and worse, people
> WILLINGLY rush to do their bidding because of
> false promises.
>
> So its important that Rambo stand up and say NO.
> But at the same time say "But I'll help you take
> care of your needs, Dad."
>
> Sometimes saying NO is the hardest thing to do.
> That's REAL LOVE.

And people are not responsible for other people's promises and choices. Dad volunteered or was 'asked' to volunteer. Rambo did not. And Dad is capable of doing it on his own. It is entirely up to Rambo whether he wants to help. Other churches in Utah which have fewer members and less money than the Morg manage to hire custodians and snow removers. I do not care to subsize the church. Besides shoveling snow is hard work and I don't want to do it, especially for an organization which I don't like and which is to cheap to pay to have it done.

Thankyou lost for such a thoughtful a well written post. I am still steaming about this!

You know what really pisses me off is my family knows I would do anything for them personally but here I am looked at being a terriable appostate.

How do I calm myself down...

It IS tough to calm down Rambo, so here some suggestions:

1. Take a deep breath.
2. Say "I know I am a good person."
3. Say "I know that I love my Family."
4. Say "I must separate my Family from the Church (Difficult because they seem to be a connected organism)
5. Only do things that help the family that don't also help the church. Do not go to church functions, offer them free labor, offer them money, etc.

Live your life. In the meantime, find happiness and show your family that you can be successful without the church. When they bear their testimony and cry, bear your untestimony and don't cry. Be strong and rational. That's always the answer to irrational behavior and the church encourages its members to behave irrationally. Good things will happen in your life and bad things will happen in your life. Whether or not you are mormon has nothing to do with it. Mormonism is a point of view you have grown away from. It is YOUR free agency to make that decision. You respect their decision, but you don't agree with it and wish they would leave because it is the life or a lie.
It should be easy for you to point out the double standards of mormonism. One only has to look at the example of Joseph's Smith life and plural marriage to see that.

Good luck and hold your head up high.

I think the issue is choice. If the OP had felt like doing it, fine, but he wasn't the one who volunteered. His dad did. The OP is under no obligation to do it. If he wants to, that is another issue, but he isn't responsible for someone else's choices.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2010 12:05AM by bona dea.

There is just no end to the outrageous demands the Mormon church makes on members, and the poster's father is a fool for going along with it.

This situation will continue until the rank and file finally says ENOUGH.

Apparently even other TBMs refuse to help shovel snow, so why should the exmo have to pitch in.

His father will either have to speak up to church leaders or he will be shoveling snow by his lonesome. Some people will only learn the hard way.

My sister was saying to me well helping Dad with the walks is helping him not the church. I said he doesn't have to do it and I will not help him with the church walks but I will with his own. She then changed subject so we would not get in a fight.

Rambo, your response was perfect.

I would add (in case he does this again) that it is important that not only do you tell him that you'll help shovel snow from his walk and not the church's but also that the church a) has lots of money and b) can afford to hire professionals to shovel snow.

In fact my point here is that any time the mormon church needs work done they more than have the money to hire someone to do it. Asking for volunteers in the soup kitchen is one thing, asking people to shovel snow, cut grass, clean the entire church building is another.

By sucking your dad in, they suck you in too. It has to stop somewhere and saying no is where it starts.

Ask your sister why she didn't help. Women shovel walks all the time. BTW, what about all those other people at dinner? They could have helped too. Why was it all about you?

My sister did say that she would help after I declined. I was the one asked first though and I think there was a hidden motive behind my Dad's asking. If he brings up the church with me again I will have to sit him down and really let him no I don't want anything to do with it. Or he will lose his relationship with his son.

Years ago, just before Christmas I was attending the UofU and in the middle of finals. My mother, who lived in a small town, asked me to do some shopping for a church member who couldn't get what she needed locally. The lady was a friend and had been really nice to our family so I did it. I had to take the bus, since I didn't have a car, go to several shops and drag the stuff back on the bus and take it down on the train the next time I went home. It took most of the afternoon and I had my own Christmas shopping to do and finals to take. Also, this stuff was for a church project and I wasn't all that thrilled with the church at the time.I might have been more willing if this had been something for the lady's kids. I did it that once, but made it clear I wasn't running errands for the church again. That same year, my roomie's mother asked her to pick up some of her Christmas shopping. She felt the same way as I did for the same reason except that this wasn't church related. In short, other people have said 'no' to their parents too.