Sorry I couldn’t get back to you on the now closed thread “CONTINUATION of "Continuation of thread @ exmormons....christian or atheist?" by seeker1” but I had to finish cooking dinner for Beloved (she had a rather rough day) so we could catch Stewart and Colbert.

In response to a comment you obviously couldn’t refute, you asked that I “Please quit lumping all churches as bad or evil.” which I’ll be more than happy to do, one-by-one, if you’ll be so kind as to provide the identities of those that don’t promote fairy tales as facts for the intended purpose of picking people’s pockets.

Fair enough?

Like yourself, I left the cult because of its mostly sexist and racist doctrines (among other things) which is why I find the set-up to your aforementioned request quite baffling:

You wrote:

“Not all churches get involved in politics or be anti gay. The Methodist church is not one of them. We have openly gay members of our church who are treated with respect and dignity.”

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,66967,67036#msg-67036

In reply, poster MJ - who admittedly ruffles more than a few feathers round these parts - presented irrefutable evidence to the contrary:

"The United Methodist Church officially considers "the practice of homosexuality incompatible with Christian teaching" and states that "self-avowed practicing homosexuals" cannot be ordained as ministers."

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,66967,67042#msg-67042

Sorry, but that doesn’t appear to me to be the least bit respectful or dignified. As a matter of fact, I consider it to be downright hateful and bigoted along the lines of, say, Boyd K. Packer and his infamous GC talk. That methodism is your preferred faith doesn’t alter that fact. I submit that the methodist cult is just as loving and caring as the mormon cult where your gay brother is concerned.

Mind if I keep methodism on my lump list? … Thanks!

I’m also not a big fan of the “Well, most other religions do the same thing” argument because that’s simply not an excuse for deplorable behavior. Its just the last-line of defense for those who have no defense.

You wrote:

“Yes the Methodist church does not support Gay Clergy but then there are lots of churches who don't but that makes them automatic bigots and anti gay when they do other things to support gay people?”

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,66967,67051#msg-67051

As a matter of fact, it does. Attempting to justify discrimination and bigotry with a numbers game is no different than attempting to verify the veracity of mormonism with the old “13 million people can’t be wrong” argument. As it turns out, 13 million people can be wrong, as this board clearly demonstrates, and any church that states homosexuality is not consistent with its teachings and that homosexuals cannot be ordained as ministers is bigoted and anti-gay.

Sorry, Madison40, I don’t make this stuff up. Its just the way things are all by themselves.

The point of the original thread was to find out what route people took after mormonism and why. In the more than 35 years since I left the cult, all I’ve found in researching other faiths is a repeating decimal. Faith, according to Mark Twain, is believing in something you know ain’t so. Priests and prophets invented the gods so that they might prey upon the fears of men. Human gullibility is a constant like the firmness of the earth.

Given the formulae I just offered, I think you can do the math.

I’ll be waiting on that list.

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2010 12:24PM by Timothy.

It just makes them three things: hypocrites, bigots AND weasels.

How can they look themselves in the mirror every day when this is what they see:
http://gto7.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/barney-weasel1.jpg

:-)

Why should anyone have to admit their sins - especially to you? You completely lost me there.

But when folks insist that others silence thier views because said views make them uncomfortable ... well, let's just say Its a sin to remain silent when one should protest.

Timothy

I completely agree with your posting, Timothy - just was confused by voltaire talking about "sins".

voltaire does have a point.

Timothy

“Not all churches get involved in politics or be anti gay. The Methodist church is not one of them. We have openly gay members of our church who are treated with respect and dignity.”

No, they don't treat them with respect and dignity. If they did, they'd ordain L&G ministers. Yes, it is that simple. But perhaps not for the simple-minded.

Yeah, simple-minded here didn't understand why someone was accusing someone else of sinning. Also hadn't figured out that you were responding to the comment on the previous thread. I think I got it now.

Hey, if you want to get into a fun-but-nonsensical debate, I'm up for it. I wasn't actually trying to derail the OP, but I've been accused of a lot worse.

It's like the slave owner saying not to judge all slave owners the same because he lets his slaves live in the house!

I understand the point about the broad brush and many individuals who go to church are gay friendly. However, like slavery, it is the institution that creates the problem. Will we see a refutation stating that the teaching of homosexuality throughout mainstream Christian teachings is wrong with an apology? Maybe, but I'm not holding my breath.

The average Methodist is part of the disease simply by association, but they claim to have a cure. It is the institution itself, IMO, that is still the problem. Slavery had to end- we didn't just accept a few people treating the slaves as equals. They were equals all along. The disease needed to be irradiated.

Just like Christianity was used to support slavery, later it was used as the reason it was abolished. This might be the same. Go figure.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2010 12:00PM by dagny.

Yep. It's another version of the "But the trains always ran on time" rationalization.

... "If it looks like, smells like it and acts like it, you call it what it is" bent of mind.

But I kinda like the way you and Dagny think, RtB!

Timothy

In that scenario, I think I'd be the white guy who wants to abolish slavery. The other whites hate him for pointing out what they are doing wrong, and the blacks don't trust him because he's white.

I've wanted to ask this question for a long time but have been afraid to. I know I have toughened up by just reading this board everyday,not to mention I have learned so much. But....I still don't understand why the atheists on this site,and I know there are a lot of you,and I think you are all amazing and have helped me a lot,are so critical of Christians. I've learned to just stop reading a post if I don't like the content. No big deal. But it does seem like the atheists are wayyyy critical of anyone who believes in God. Why? I understand you believe/know their is no God,but why be so hard on those of us that do believe in God? The nondenom church I attend expects nothing of me,no money,no service etc.but I love attending. I am a very generous person and know I would be so with or without a church,but I really do love to go to this church and sing some amazing songs,and listen to some amazing pastors. It's so different than any mormon meeting I ever attended,and there is so much happiness there. We do have a few gays that attend,and even a cross dresser that always sits across from me as is a lot of fun. I wish Christians as a whole were more accepting of GLBT,but it's a hell of a lot better than the mormon dogs. I for one have totally changed my attitude about gays,and everyone else we were taught to shun. I'm ashamed of my former attitude. But I've "repented" and changed my ways. Anyway,sorry if this offends anyone,but I just wanted to share. And please put your kid gloves on when responding as I might cry all day if you are mean.:)

I'm with you there, loveskids - I think many of the atheists on here make good points, and I agree with most of what they say, except that they tend to be very critical of belief or even ambivalence of belief about God. I'm kind of trying to ask them to be a little more accepting of the non-atheists but I think I was misunderstood. Oh well, I'm not going to cry about it :)

I can only speak for myself in stating that I don't really care what anyone believes until those beliefs begin to effect me.

Here in Texas, for example, I can't buy beer before noon on Sunday because, according to the religious right, my doing so would somehow threaten to destroy the sanctity of their precious sabbath.

Keep it to yourself and its not a problem. Screw with my football and beer time and I'm gonna rudely shove that screwy book you put so much stock in where the sun don't shine.

I don't know what else to say. If someone thinks we should all put the "Christ" back in Christmas, is it so wrong for me to think we should all put The "Sol" back in Solstice?

Christians do, I'll be bound.

Timothy

Well, it isn't all of the atheists on this board. Just some.

I'm all for engaging in ideas and addressing points brought up specifically for debate, but I do try not to criticize people for their personal choices in regards to religion. *shrug* I've been on this board for a long time and I know for a fact I am not the only atheist who feels this way.

And you don't need to apologize to anyone for what you believe. But, given the nature of this board and what is discussed here, if you throw something out there, it will likely get challenged. It's just the nature of the beast.

If Person A makes a Claim (Claim A) that they are unable to substantiate, and bases some aspect of their (1) behavioral / (2) moral / (3) ethical code on that claim, Person B wants to know why they need Claim A in order to justify having Codes (1), (2), or (3) in their lives (Person B having cut to the chase, presumably, and figured out that s/he doesn't want Claim A to have any bearing on his/her choices regarding Codes (1), (2), or (3)). Person A then retaliates with something like "well if you don't have Claim A in your life then society just falls apart!" and Person B retorts "are you that stupid that you can't conclude that Codes (1), (2), and (3) work just fine without Claim A?" and the conversation just goes downhill from there.

The problem is that one point of view chooses to be based on faith and the direction of an unseen & unmeasurable force (Option A), the other chooses to depend on more mundane but eminently more calculable empirical results (Option B). In a perfect world, the results of both may or may not add up to the same thing. But we don't live in a perfect world, and many times, those Persoons A who subscribe to Option A hide behind the inherent "mysteries" of their faith and refuse to acknowledge empirical results, no matter how empirical they are. That is a problem for the Persons B who frequent RfM.

In this thread, Madison40 made a claim for some supposed generous act on the part of the United Methodist Church in America. That claim may or may not be true on a case-by-case congregational basis, but the church as an entire entity does not support the claim, and has proven over several years and across several conferences that it will not. Thus you have the so-called "atheists" holding the "believer's" feet to the fire. The same situation could be posed to Mormons who claim they support LGBT civil rights: why do you support and pay tithes to an institution that works to suppress and discriminate if you personally profess the opposite? Doesn't that speak to a certain conflict of interests between you and your religion? Doesn't that point out a certain cognitive dissonance regarding your personal beliefs and the active practice of the institution you claim allegiance to? And finally, the underlying question always is: if you don't personally subscribe to the requirements of your religion, then why do you profess allegiance to it? Why continue doing so? Etc., etc., etc.

My problem comes when those who have their "feet held to the fire" cry foul.

Timothy

But I think sometimes the wrong feet are held to the fire...

Sorry, but I'm just not any good at mental gymnastics.

Timothy

"I still don't understand why the atheists on this site,...,are so critical of Christians.

That is a particularly interesting question in regards to this thread.

You see a Christian, A Methodist to be exact, claimed that the Methodist Church did not discriminate against gays. Well, an Atheist pointed out that the officially stance of the United Methodist Church was that the church does in fact discriminate against gays. For being the messenger for the STATED POLICY of the United Methodist Church, I was accused of attacking that church.

That sort of behavior to defend one's faith even when a legitimate point is being made about that faith is one of the reasons I am critical of religion.

Agree. I know that Christians in general do not approve of the gay "lifestyle" and still think they can get all better with a few counseling sessions or whatever. I terrible dislike that part of Christianity and want nothing to do with it. It's not the way I am raising my 2 youngest.

I'm not going to respond to this because it would not matter what I say, you'll find a way to twist it around.

Are you talking to me? Not exactly the response I was expecting if you are.

I'm pretty sure she was responding to the first post :)

... was already "twisted" and my response "un-twisted" it?

I'm trying to be as civil as I can under the circumstances.

Have you made that list yet?

Timothy

And someone pointed out that it was indeed the policy of the church he believes in to discriminate against gays.

I do not see how Madison40 can claim his words are being twisted when people are pointing out the STATED POLICY of the church he believes in.

The simple matter is, Maddison40 claimed “Not all churches get involved in politics or be anti gay. The Methodist church is not one of them. We have openly gay members of our church who are treated with respect and dignity.” According to the United Methodist church stated policy, that is simply not true. Gay members are not treated with the same respect because gay members are discriminated against on some level. This is NOT me or anyone else twisting his words, this is pointing out that according to United Methodist Church policy, his claims are wrong.

And you seem to have a problem with people pointing out that your religion's stated policy is to discriminate against gays when it comes to the clergy.

That is NOT twisting your words, that is being HONEST about the religion you claim to believe in.

I was responding to Timothy

I met you more than half-way in offering to stop lumping all churches as bad and evil, as you requested, in exchange for you providing the identities of those that aren't.

Is there a problem?

Timothy

When I talked about his church SPECIFICALLY without lumping it together Madison40 was the first to lump his church together with others: "Yes the Methodist church does not support Gay Clergy but then there are lots of churches who don't..." I do not see why you should stop lumping churches together when in that thread it was MADISON40 that lumped churches together to claim that that lump all practiced discrimination against gays.

I do not see why WE should stop lumping churches together because of someone that does just that.

The offer was for me to stop lumping churches into the "bad-and-evil" category in return for Madison40 providing the identities of those that don't belong in that category.

What are the odds, my friend?

Timothy

loveskids Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But....I still
> don't understand why the atheists on this site,and
> I know there are a lot of you,and I think you are
> all amazing and have helped me a lot,are so
> critical of Christians. I've learned to just stop
> reading a post if I don't like the content. No big
> deal. But it does seem like the atheists are
> wayyyy critical of anyone who believes in God.
> Why? I understand you believe/know their is no
> God,but why be so hard on those of us that do
> believe in God?

--------------------

Just addressing this part ^ of your post.

I don't think any of us non-believers are anywhere near as critical as believers are of us. This whole discussion was initiated by a Christian wondering why ex-Mormons seem to gravitate toward atheism vs. some other god-myth. I for one am sick of being told on this board that the only reason I arrived at the conclusion that there is a slim-to-nil chance of the existence of a god-like entity is because I was "programmed" by the morg to only accept the fluffy white Mormon Jebus. Or that I'm angry at the church so I'm angry at god. Or that I'm throwing out the baby Jeebus with the smelly mormon bathwater.

Why do believers seem to care so much that others don't believe in their god? I think it says a lot more about the conviction of believers when they constantly try to bring non-believers back into some kind of "fold." It's as if they are trying desperately to convince themselves rather than others.

I understand what you are saying. Just like I do not want some uppity mormon telling me they will "pray for me to see the light" you don't want some uppity Christian telling you the same thing. I have only been out of the church 1 year. I was never uber mormon and I am not uber Christian. I don't pray 3 times a day-I don't pray 3 times a week. Well,maybe sometime. I have really been focusing this past year on not being judgemental. That was a huge thing for me and I have come a long way. I always faught for the underdog. I claimed I accepted gays as a mormon,but I really didn't. I sure do now and I am a much better person for it.
Cute story. My dd moved to a new gymnastics studio. The first day in her class one of the girls her age (7) said to dd "I have 4 moms and they are all gay". Dd asked me exactly what that meant (she was having a hard time with the 4 not 2 moms) and I told her. She said "oh cool. I would love to have 4 moms. One to make my breakfast,one to make lunch and one to make dinner". I said that was only 3 moms and she said "oh the 4th mom is the snack mom!"

So I am trying to work through all this and get rid of a lot of crap-57 years worth. But I am doing good I think. It gets easier every day.

i spent 15 months in afghanistan in an infantry unit, one of the most striking moments was watching an wounded avowed atheist comrade, begging god to spare his life, i don't even think he realized he was doing it, my father witnessed the same thing in the jungles of vietnam, this is not a condemnation, just an observance

If you don't mind me asking. I was in Konar province.

I think there's something about being in a life-or-death situation that tends to make people temporarily revert to their childhood beliefs. But that's just my thought - I don't have any evidence of that.

I spent 10 months on a cancer ward receiving chemo therapy. With my future uncertain, it never once occurred to me to beg gods for help.

*shrug* Pain, fear and uncertainty do things to people. Sometimes.

The old "no atheists in foxholes" crack. Tired, lame, and totally non-sequitur.

Were there any other witnesses to these two Faith-Promoting Rumors, "cory," or is it just your word against a dead man's?

I hope not.

Why quibble over the detail of whether the supposed protagonist is dead or not? The lame claim itself is as dead as "What God is, Man may become, blah blah blah."

Depends if he responds. The story might be true. If so, I'd like to hear more about it. Doesn't sound lame to me.

Like Three Witnesses, maybe. Or Eight Witnesses. Yeah, because Eight Witnesses is MORE than Three Witnesses, so that's better, right? That ought to be enough to establish that there are no atheists in foxholes, right? And that the Book of Mormon is twooo?

I wouldn't hold my breath on this one if I were you.

... if the following thought crossed your mind?

"Thank god it wasn't me!"

I ask because if there is a god, I don't think he/she/it works that way. If he does, he's certainly not worthy of my worship.

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2010 02:36PM by Timothy.

I'm not above asking whatever god there may be for help to save my life or the life of someone I love. If it doesn't work, well, there's no harm in trying. If it does - well, I won't know whether it really was divine intervention or not. I don't know if god exists or not, but as a last resort, I'd give it a shot.

You don't think God would see thought the "there is no harm on trying"?

And of course, what would happen if you are asking the WRONG GOD? Maybe you piss off the right god so much that instead of letting you live, the real, now pissed off god, lets you die.

Sorry, the "no harm in trying" is far from certain.

I don't think, if there is a god, that he/she/it would punish a person for not knowing whether or not there is a god. I think sometimes being willing to ask for help can make it easier to receive help. When it comes to a life or death situation, you do what you have to do to get through it.
Anyway, if there are any service members on this board, I'm more interested in talking to them than to MJ.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2010 03:30PM by loveismyreligion.

the Famous Pascal's Wager! The chickenshit chickening-out of a formerly brilliant theorist who got caught up in a religious fervor and lost his way. "Lessee, here...if I hedge my bets maybe I'll win 50% of the time..." Yeah, just make sure when you tell someone else about it, they've made the same bet you have. Otherwise you'd better be prepared for a lot of mockery and loud laughter.

(Lots of high comedy here today on RfM! Thanks for the entertaining thread, Timothy!)

you do realize that often when atheists say "oh gawd please..." they are not actually referencing an all powerful god, right?

One of the striking things that I have noted about the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts is the number of religious believers that have converted to Atheism because of what they saw in those wars.