My wife and I haven't given the church a dime in about 3 years. Our last few tithing settlement meetings with the bishop have been very pleasant and uneventful. We simply tell him each time that we can't afford to pay tithing right now, and he just says that he understands and would encourage us to do so whenever we are able. We keep receiving callings and no one has really given us much grief about it until recently. Last Sunday, the bishop caught my wife after Relief Society. I didn't go to priesthood, so I wasn't around for the meeting. When I picked my wife up, she told me that I lucked out in missing the meeting. The Bishop started right off as a really sarcastic jerk. He showed her the settlement sheet which had a balance of $0. Then he asked her if we were full tithe payers, partial tithe payers, or non tithe payers. What an idiotic question! Obviously my wife answered that we were non tithe payers. After this, the bishop began to look shocked and disappointed and started lecturing my wife in a quiet yet judgmental tone. His lunatic rantings went something like this: "Don't you want to be a part of this kingdom? Don't you want to be able to tell people that your money has gone to help build our beautiful churches and temples? Don't you want to know that your money is making a difference? And also, think about when your nieces and nephews get married in the temple. You won't be going inside to witness that now will you? Doesn't that make you sad? Oh and by the way, when are the two of you going to have children? I promise you that it is the best decision you will ever make. Now please, pay your tithing so can be a part of this wonderful kingdom etc......"

Several years ago, my wife would have been in tears over this lecture from the bishop, but now that she knows it's all a crock, she just shared this with me and rolled her eyes about it like it was no big deal. This bishop is usually very nice and doesn't usually criticize anyone. He's kind of an airhead actually, but that's beside the point. Do you think he is being pressured by the stake president or other outside sources? It was just highly uncharacteristic of him to speak this way. It doesn't really bother me or my wife, but I just think it's appalling that church leaders think they can treat people like this.

Oh and by the way, we have actually been fully capable of paying our tithing these last few years, we just don't want to.

That is nauseating! Yeah... your money is going to help spread Mormonism to unsuspecting quiet towns like Buena Vista, Va, where people don't know a thing about TSCC. My mother's hometown has been overtaken like kudzu...

If your wife knows it's all a crock, and you're in the same boat (assuming, since you're on this board)...why are you still attending?

Without any children and a spouse with the same views...it'd be very easy to just leave the church.

My wife's entire family is mormon. I converted about 15 years ago. If I hadn't, the two of us wouldn't even be married right now. After we got married in the temple 11 years ago, I think we both knew it wasn't true, but kept going because we didnt' know what else to do. That past couple of years, I have actually done the research and now know that without a shadow of a doubt that it's all garbage. My wife has a very close, kind, and generous family, but I'm not sure it would be good if we told them about our nonbelief. We just pretend because it makes life easier. But I am concerned about what to do when we have children. I don't want them being brainwashed.

I understand. It's never as easy at it seems :) Best of luck to you two!

Then you are hypocrites for even continuing to put up with it and living a lie...

And you're being judgmental for calling them hypocrites...
So what? People should do what works best for them at the time.

Dear npangel,

I understand that it seems hypocritical, but everyone's situtation is different. We do not tell anyone that we believe the church is true, we just attend. My wife's entire family structure relies on the church. I don't think that's a good thing, but that's just the way it is. I know that there is no way her family would listen to anything I had to say about the church. For us to proclaim our disbelief would simply create tension and accomplish nothing. Some day, I think we will be bold enough to share the truth with them. But they have their own twisted version of the truth and may never come to see what we do. Why risk destroying the relationship we have with them? I may be wrong, but that's how we've chosen to handle it.

And even now we've only come half clean. My wife's family knows and most of my family knows, but I haven't talked to my parents.

I live in another state, don't want to do it over the phone or in a letter, and the last time I was home and planned on doing it, a family emergency got in the way.

Everyone's situation is different. But I will say this, if you are not the first of the family to leave, it's easier than you think.

If you are not, well....good luck.

I don't think I could've sat through that like your wife did, without really letting the bishop have it. But I understand that you're trying to stay under the radar so she probably just had to bite her tongue.

My guess? He is being pressured from the Stake Pres who is being pressured because tithing is way down. The bishop is taking it out on the members. His arse is in the sling, so he thinks he can bully the members!
Terrible!

are living luxurious lives of increasingly less silent desperation?

Turn up the volume, correlated patriarchs! The pressure will liberate more of your celestial serfs faster.

He approached your wife alone because he felt the need to be a condescending prick to someone and doesn't feel empowered enough to treat another penisholder that way. If he was honestly concerned about you two paying tithing and having children he would have talked to BOTH of you together.

I am so glad I'm out of that misogynistic corporation. The attitude toward women is just disgusting.

Come on man. Help them out. They need some more cash for some more fancy fountains or golden sidewalks near their 4 billion dollar mall. Quit being so tight and cough it up. hahaha

A good response might be, "Well that's just it, Bishop, neither one of us really knows where the money is going. If the church published its yearly budget (as many other churches do,) then more people might be inspired to give if they knew exactly how their donated funds are being spent. As it is, our ward keeps only a small percentage of donated funds for activities and programs. And members are being asked to do more and more, such as clean the church builing and clear snow from it as well. People also see a three billion dollar church-built mall going up in SLC and they rightfully wonder if the church really needs all that money."

Assuming you continue to refuse to pay your tax to 'the kingdom' what will the kingdom's tax collectors do about it? Has anyone ever been excommunicated for refusal to pay the tax? I don't think so. The MOST I see any of them doing is withdrawing your 'Temple privileges' and I doubt you have any interest in going there when you could instead go to some place interesting like the Driver's Licensing Office.

You don't need a Temple Recommend to honestly tell others that you're members and you can always beg off of family member's Temple festivities by claiming pressing prior commitments to the local tugboat preservation society.

I recommend limited honesty with the kingdom's tax collectors. Just tell 'em you don't intend on giving them any cash and you're fine with the return of their Temple Recommend if they want it. If they ask why, don't give them any answer about belief or lack thereof that might lead to excommunication. Just tell 'em 'the spirit' has not given you a testimony of that principle just yet but you'll get back with them when and if it does. Under no circumstances should you tell them that you're just trying to keep up appearances for family 'cause then you just know they'll try to enlist the family to pressure you into paying. If you no longer get any 'callings' that will just be another benefit that can be explained to family by your time commitment to tugboat preservation.

If you ever have children it will be time to decide whether your first priority is the welfare of your children or appearances to the family.

I think all the bishops are getting pressure to get the members to pay more tithing. Tithing would necessarily be down in this economy, even with everyone paying on their gross. But add to that people who are paying on their net or justifying skimming off a little since the bishop doesn't really know their income. And add all the people who aren't afraid to read the internet or think and feel the church is lucky to get anything from them or have quit paying altogether. Yeah, I'd say income is suffering and bishops are being squeezed to lean on the members for the "Lord's Money."

Here would be my answers, if the bishop asked those questions of me:

- Don't you want to be a part of this kingdom? - Not if bullies like you are part of it.

- Don't you want to be able to tell people that your money has gone to help build our beautiful churches and temples? - You mean like that scripture "For they love their fine buildings more than they love the poor and needy? Isn't what you are talking about a sin?

- Don't you want to know that your money is making a difference?
- I don't know it's making a difference. The church won't tell me where it's going.

- Think about when your nieces and nephews get married in the temple. You won't be going inside to witness that now will you? Doesn't that make you sad? - Yes, I think it's a terrible policy the church has, having to buy your way into heaven. Holding families hostage for money is a terribly anti-family policy.

- Oh and by the way, when are the two of you going to have children? - THAT is none of your business!

Of course, if you and wife are keeping a low profile, she handled it beautifully. Those answers would work better for someone like me, who's bishop knows I'm a non-believer. And let me add to those who say, everyone works their way out of the church in the manner that is best for them. Your patience may help preserve bridges and trust with family members who may, one day, need you to lead them to safety outside the church too. Listen to your gut and take your time and things will work out for you. You are lucky DW and you are on the same page.

Shame on him!

Oh my bishop, you are being a terrible bully. Shame on you.
When you can talk to me with respect, let me know.
Bye.

Is that he actually came out and articulated that a TR buys you a ticket to weddings. We all know that it is the reason so many people pay up and keep their recommends. But it's usually the totally unspoken extortion.

Even after I stopped trying to go through endowment sessions because I felt nothing but Satanic feelings when I did, I kept a recommend for years because I was young married and had many younger sibings, cousins and friends and wanted to be able to go to their weddings. We were so cash strapped and should not have been giving money to a cult when we needed it for our family, but I fell prey to the extortion scheme. Years later when I hadn't paid for awhile, if I'd only had to start paying tithing when my daughter got engaged, as some bishops require, I would have done it so I could go to her wedding. I was church active at the time, but apathetic about the rules and had no problem lying about the other stuff--like whether I believed GBH was a profit, whether I obeyed the WOW or whether I was completely celibate, etc. However, my bishop wanted back tithing and there was no chance in Hell.

You have to wonder how many people would quit paying if it weren't for the wedding extortion angle.

To NormaRae- your bishop wanted BACK tithing? I've never heard of that before. It truly is LD$ Inc, isn't it?

It is none of their business what you do with your OWN money. Threats of eternal separation because you don't buy into their cult?

I say both of you NEVER go back for 2011. Imagine the stunned look on the bishie's face when he realizes he THREATENED YOU OUT OF THE CHURCH.

I hope you both find happiness out of the cult, and, should you decide to start a family (your choice here, hello?), raise them how you want to away from these lunatics!

Happy New Year free from the cult!

Maybe you could basically say to the Bishop, "Look, dude. My wife and I don't believe in this stuff anymore, but we're in it for her family. We have no intention of leaving, so you're just gonna have to accept us as we are."

No, that's a bad idea - see the post by Otremer above. Telling the bishop that you're only there for her family is like telling the Mafia where your relatives live. You really trust someone who's trying to extort money from you not to use that information?

Ah, okay. I've just heard of people doing that before, and the Bishops didn't like it, but accepted it.

both need to be HONEST, and leave. This will create opportunities for you to explain to your family why, and they too may see the light.

I read the posts with great interest. Last Sunday morning, the local bp called me at home, wanting to make a tithing settlement appointment..... not the ward clerk, the bishop. This is the very first time in my life that I have been called to come in for tithing settlement.

I told the bishop that there was no need for that meeting, as I have not attended settlement in over 20 years, and saw no need to do so. Still on the phone, he asked me what category I would like to be be placed in... non, part or full. I said "part, and wasn't that so much easier that having a meeting?" He laughed.

What still gets me was the fact that he called... the Morgdom must be running short.

A bishop chastised me 35 or so years ago and that was the last straw. Haven't paid tithing or been to church since.

Thanks Bishop J. you saved me lots of money and lots of hours listening to mormon droning.