Rod L. Meldrum? Apparently he's a professor and a Mormon apologist, and my parents bought a book by him titled: "The Book of Mormon in America's Heartland".

I need help! My parents are reading and quoting it like the crazy right now and trying to reconvert me with what it's saying. Please help me. I need all of you, especially people like stevebenson. Help me get something, anything, to feed right back to them.

I know it's obviously just mormon apologist crap, but I need resources to show them that!

Things I've heard so far: The book is "primarily non-LDS research", "it proves the truthfulness of the BOM".

I just really need reliable resources/websites to point them to and show them they wasted that money!

They are so excited, they think they have proof and can change me. For gods sake what theyre doing isnt research!

The man is a complete idiot.

Arguing with Mormons who go off and jump in bed with idiots like Meldrum on this topic gets you exactly nowhere, so don't engage. I know it is tempting to argue back with crazy people, but don't do it.

mock them if you want, but don't engage a discussion or argument.

If they insist, just keep repeating to them: "NO CREDIBLE RESEARCH PROVES THE BOOK OF MORMON."

When they demand that you 'prove' that, say: "Hey - the Book of Mormon is YOUR baby. YOU prove it - WITH CREDIBLE REESEARCH."

This is beautiful, I'd like to nominate you to Run with Raptor Jesus during the 2nd coming of jesus as our general in the ward, I mean war... your rebuttals are always so witty and intelligent, while being poignant and direct. A True NON APOLOGIST. I won't apologize or censor my retort for your crazy sensitivity.

Isn't she great. I wish I had such great humor.

the Book of Mormon. Search on "Smithsonian," in the RfM search engine, and you will locate it. Good luck.

This is gold. Just find this and give it to them.

Just looking at the reviews on Amazon here are some reviews from believing Mormons who shred this book in their reviews:

1)
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has made very clear that THERE IS NO OFFICIAL CHURCH POSITION ON WHERE BOOK OF MORMON EVENTS OCCURRED. This is the Church's official position despite alleged revelations to Joseph Smith or opinions by other Church leaders on Book of Mormon geography. See "Book of Mormon Geography," Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 176-179.

In regard to the Prophet Joseph's statements found in this book by Rod Meldrm, faithful LDS scholars-with the strongest convictions of Joseph's prophetic calling-have established that the Prophet's statements (1) may not be what Joseph actually said; (2) were later changed or updated in early official Church publications; or (3) are grossly taken out of context. See for example, John L. Sorenson, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon, Deseret Book (1985), Introduction.

Further, in regard to statements about the promised land found in this book, there have been many promised lands, just as we are to build Zion in many places, as the prophets in our day have made clear. In The Book of Mormon itself, Nephi expressly referred to their original landing spot (which occurred somewhere far south of the present day southern U.S. political border) as "the promised land" (1 Ne. 18:23). This is a fact, found in the sacred record itself. The Book of Mormon itself does not preclude Central America as being a "promised land." One may rely on The Book of Mormon itself-officially recognized as sacred revelation and scripture by the Church-or one can be titillated by alleged revelations and statements that are not officially recognized by the Church.

In resolving Book of Mormon geographical questions, it is critical to examine the text of The Book of Mormon itself. In The Book of Mormon itself, Mormon refers to cities being in the same locations in relation to each other both before and after the great destruction recounted in 3 Nephi. That is, the great destruction did not shift continents or prevent us today from mapping Book of Mormon features. Further, Mormon makes over 530 references to geography and spatial relations between cities and geographical features that allow readers to create a map of Book of Mormon events. It is a simple fact that only one place on the American continent is perfectly consistent with all 530 plus geographical references in the text itself. That place is Mesoamerica, not any place within the present political boundaries of the USA. Bart J. Kowallis, "The Great Destruction in 3 Nephi," BYU Studies 37/3 (1997-98): 136-190; John E. Clark, "Evaluating Nephite Geographies," Mormon Studies Review 23/1 (2011): 13-43; Sorenson, An Ancient American Setting.

These and other faithful LDS scholars have written their findings in journals published by BYU and The Neal A. Maxwell Institute, without disapproval of the Quorum of the Twelve. These scholars have also expressed their findings in books published by Deseret Book.

Unfortunately, Rod Meldrum (1) relies in this book on controversial statements by the Prophet Joseph and others not officially recognized by the Church, (2) misinterprets statements about the promised land, (3) selectively quotes just a few of the 530 references in the Book of Mormon regarding geographical issues, (4) makes other egregious interpretive errors, and (5) then adds beautiful photos. Unfortunately, he completely ignores a thorough, careful, and complete analysis of all of Mormon's own geographical references found in the sacred and inspired text itself. Brother Meldrum is a perfect example of a Latter-day Saint who (in Nibley's words) practices "Zeal Without Knowledge." Hugh Nibley, On the Timely and the Timeless, Deseret Book, 1979.

In brief, the prophet Mormon did not laboriously inscribe on metal plates over 530 geographical references just so they could be ignored by Rod Meldrum, others like him, and latter-day readers of the Book of Mormon. If you are interested in Book of Mormon geography, be very careful to study The Book of Mormon text itself and at least the references found in this brief note before concluding this book by Rod Meldrum to be accurate or true.

2)
Everyone is entitled to their opinion when it comes to Book of Mormon geography, as long as you are honest in your research. This is something I did not find in Meldrums works. First of all, the Neal A. Maxwell Institute, which is run by Church owned BYU (has several members of the 12 Apostles, and First Presidency on the board of Trustees), funded with Tithing money, published a review of some of the work done by the author (Rodney Meldrum), and finds that it is inaccurate at best. This is sad because we shouldn't have to be wary of fellow LDS members writings.
You can read the review on the Neal A. Maxwell site, or do a search for Often in Error, Seldom in Doubt: Rod Meldrum and Book of Mormon DNA by Dr. Gregory L. Smith FARMS Review: Volume - 22, Issue - 1, Pages: 17-161
Matthew Roper has written an article taking a comprehensive look at Joseph Smiths beliefs and has found that Joseph Smith supported a Mesoamerican setting for The Book of Mormon using solid research and word-print studies. You can read his article on the Neal A. Maxwell site, or do a search for "Joseph Smith, Revelation, and Book of Mormon Geography Volume-22 Issue-2.
See also "Losing the Remnant: The New Exclusivist "Movement" and The Book of Mormon" for a look at the location of the promised land, location of the Lamanites, and Temple dedicatory prayers which place the Lamanites in Mesoamerica.

There are modern Prophets and Apostles who have said many interesting things in dedicatory prayers for Temples in Central America. Temple dedicatory prayers are given under inspiration and are explained in the Church publication "Encyclopedia of Mormonism", as a prayer that is
"offered under apostolic authority. Historically these prayers encompass the whole sweep of the modern dispensation, invoking divine blessings on all mankind, living and dead. They have often been prophetic of world events (see D&C 109). Encyclopedia of Mormonism, p 1455

Gordon B. Hinckleys dedicatory prayer at the Guatemala City, Guatemala temple, he stated, "Thou Kind and Gracious Father, our hearts swell with gratitude for Thy remembrance of the sons and daughters of Lehi... We thank Thee O God, for lifting the scales of darkness which for generations clouded the vision of the descendants of Lehi"

In his March 6, 1999 dedicatory prayer given at the Colonia Juaréz Chihuahua Temple, Hinckley he said, "Bless Thy Saints that they may continue to live here without molestation. May they live in peace and security. May they be prospered as they cultivate their farms and pursue their vocations. May the sons and daughters of father Lehi grow in strength and in fulfillment of the ancient promises made concerning them."

In August 1999, Hinckley made a similar statement as he was in Guayaquil, Ecuador to dedicate another new LDS temple. "It has been a very interesting thing to see the descendants of father Lehi in the congregation that have gathered in the temple...So very many of these people have the blood of Lehi in their veins, and it is just an intriguing thing to see their tremendous response and their tremendous interest" (Salt Lake Tribune 11/30/2000).

While there are Temple dedicatory prayers which place Lamanites in South America, Polynesian Islands and a few in the Southern US (such as the Snowflake Arizona Temple which is far outside where Meldrums book claims to be BOM lands), it should be noted that not one inspired Temple dedicatory prayer in the Great Lakes region say anything about BOM lands, Lamanites in those areas, or anything else that would hint that they were in Book of Mormon areas. The only inspired prayers are outside of this Great Lakes geography theory.
Meldrum also says that Lamanites were in North America. This is true, but, it was not the only place they were at.

President Joseph Fielding Smith says there are "millions" of Lamanites in Mexico-
"The history of this American continent also gives evidence that the Lamanites have risen up in their anger and vexed the Gentiles. This warfare may not be over. It has been the fault of people in the United States to think that this prophetic saying has reference to the Indians in the United States, but we must remember that there are millions of the 'remnant' in Mexico, Central and South America" (Church History and Modern Revelation 2:127).

The Prophet Spencer W. Kimball said there are Lamanites all over the Western Hemisphere-
"I rejoice that it has been my privilege to carry the gospel to the Lamanites from the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic, from the reaches of Canada to southern Chile, and in the islands from Hawaii to New Zealand." - Spencer W. Kimball, "Our Paths Have Met Again", Ensign, Dec. 1975

He makes several assumptions that are not correct, one of which is that Joseph Smith *only* taught a Great Lakes setting for The Book of Mormon. This is clearly not correct. Either the author did not really research the issue, or decided to ignore other quotes by Joseph Smith, as well as many other Prophets and Apostles in Joseph Smiths day forward. Neither option puts the research of the author in a positive light. Also, Joseph Smith published many things in the Times and Seasons and elsewhere, which placed The Book of Mormon in Central America, what is now Southern US, Western United States, Florida, Kentucky, and more. He also allowed members of the twelve apostles to declare Book of Mormon cities in Mesoamerica, repeatedly. Rodney Meldrum attempts to claim that Joseph Smith said no such thing, but the evidence says otherwise.

After Joseph Smith received the book Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas, and Yucatan, which extensively goes over the Mayan ruins, history, archaeology, etc.. from John Bernhisel, Joseph Smith wrote him a thank you letter stating that this book on Mesoamerica:
"corresponds with & supports the testimony of the Book of Mormon; I have read the volumes with the greatest interest & pleasure & must say that of all histories that have been written pertaining to the antiquities of this country it is the most correct luminous & comprihensive.-..." Joseph Smith, The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, compiled and edited by Dean C. Jessee (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1984), 501 - 502.

"Stephens and Catherwood's researches in Central America abundantly testify of this thing. The stupendous ruins, the elegant sculpture, and the magnificence of the ruins of Guatamala, and other cities, corroborate this statement, and show that a great and mighty people-men of great minds, clear intellect, bright genius, and comprehensive designs inhabited this continent. Their ruins speak of their greatness; the Book of Mormen [Mormon} unfolds their history." Joseph Smith (editor)," American Antiquities," Times and Seasons 3/18 (15 July 1842): 860

Joseph Smith was the Editor of the Times and Seasons, and it states on several issues where it is claimed that The Book of Mormon happened in Mesoamerica, that "The Times and Seasons, is Edited by Joseph Smith. Printed and published about the first and fifteenth of every month, on the corner of Water and Bain Streets Nauvoo, Hancock County, Illinois, by Joseph Smith."
There are MANY other examples of Joseph Smith teaching a Mesoamerican model for The Book of Mormon, but this should suffice.

Meldrum also claims that DNA proves his theory, yet there is no geneticist who backs up what he claims. I have produced a video on DNA and The Book of Mormon called "The Book of Mormon and New World DNA", and interviewed and spoke with many LDS geneticists. I spoke to them specifically about the X Haplogroup that Meldrum is using as evidence, and they all cautioned me against using it as evidence. So, I left it out of the video (which, I did for free, and get absolutely no royalties from. I did it to answer questions of those whose testimonies were shaken, and have not received one penny for my work. Meldrum has sold tens of thousands of DVD's for 25 dollars each. He has something to lose). You can click on the first link for more information on the fallacy of X Haplogroup as evidence for the BOM argument. Perhaps the mistake comes because Meldrum is not a scientist, and has no training whatsoever in genetics. He is a salesman by trade. Actual geneticists have urged him to back away from this argument because of it's flaws, but those pleas fell on deaf ears. He has ignored what doctors in this field say about his argument. These same LDS geneticists do not subscribe to any geography for The Book of Mormon. They do not care whether it took place in North America, South America, or Cuba. But, do recognize when someone, who is gaining popularity, is obviously wrong in their conclusion. They have nothing to gain or lose by explaining the fallacies of Meldrums argument, but would like to see accurate information published. They are not members of FAIR, and only present the facts.

Claims about the "Michigan relics" as evidence for The Book of Mormon have been used by Meldrum as well. But starting with Elder James E. Talmage (author of Jesus the Christ, Articles of Faith, and more) they have been shown to be forgeries. Recently, they were re-evaluated, and again, shown to be forgeries. So why are these forgeries used as evidence for The Book of Mormon? I would much rather learn about truthful evidences in behalf of The Book of Mormon than something that sounds good, but is fraudulent. This has been brought up to the author, but ignored. He now claims to have distanced himself from them, but I have personally seen them on display at his fireside, his website still sells books advocating the Michigan relics, he has pictures of them in one of his videos on the Hopewell, and you view them on your BOM geography tours with Meldrum as evidence for The Book of Mormon.

Overall, I know geneticists, archaeologists, and scholars who have no opinion on Book of Mormon geography, who have attempted to explain to Meldrum why the information he uses is not accurate, but they have been ignored. To me, this is the cherry on top of bad scholarship that give LDS a bad name. I hope to see future work by this author cleaned up, and presented with an honest look on these subjects.

Most every other point he makes is flawed. As I said before, it is sad that LDS scholars have to correct their own, but you can read more about it in another review by faithful Latter-day Saints, on the FAIR website, or do a search for "Reviews of DNA Evidence for Book of Mormon Geography"

If my parents with doing this to me I would love it. I would require time for time - I'll sped time looking at something they want me to look at but then they have to spend equal time looking at something I want them to look at...

Wow thank you! I really appreciate it!

I'm finally collecting and sourcing all this stuff myself instead of leaving it on the internet.

I can say "live and let live" to TBM who KNOW the history is BS, JS was BS, and much of the RULES are BS, but say "hey, it helps my family, and I feel like it makes me a better person." I may not agree with you, as I think religion poisons minds and society, but at least, if you can admit it is BS, but you are CHOOSING to still live it, then I can respect that. (Well, enough to leave it alone... for now.... until you Mormon rage at me for something.. it happens every time with these types...) But I digress..

Just don't try and tell me you have evidence of that BS, at that point you lose all my respect, and the conversation is over, because you are basing YOUR argument on what you WISH were true, and trying to convince me that MAKES it true.... at this point, you are deemed unworthy of further discussion in my book.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2012 05:55PM by intjsegry.

Even the apologists at FAIR have refuted Meldrum. It's run to watch them eat each other.
Here's an old post by Simon Southerton on it.
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon534.htm

Here's a FARMS or Maxwell Institute article on Meldrum called, "Often in Error, Seldom in Doubt: Rod Meldrum and Book of Mormon DNA" by Gregory L. Smith. http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=22&num=1&id=793

It rips him to sherds. Maybe the OP can ask how the church can refute him and him still be correct enough to build a testimony on.

I thought it might be on Southerton's blog (http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com/). Simon's on sabbatical, pleading battle fatigue for having gobsmacked too many trolls, but your link essentially has it all... It even has some nice things about me (I edited a couple of Simon's pieces for him to make sure they spoke to "ordinary" folks). I need stuff like that myself when I'm washing the old police interceptor off after indulging in a bit of roadkill.

Here's one more for the Meldrum crowd (who, incidentally, is a "young Earth Creationist sort for whom DNA seems to stand for "Does Not Apply).

http://www.mazeministry.com/mormonism/holley/holleymaps.htm

if i were you i'd only give them stuff from FAIR or FARMS... and watch their heads explode...

ETA:

http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/MisguidedF.pdf



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2012 03:50PM by grubbygert.

Thank you, bc! This is a great thread, Misguided. It seems like our TBM parents (and aunts and uncles) have more time to read and research this garbage than we do. I appreciate these short-cuts, that the RFM scholars offer us--it saves so much time and effort!

I agree with Heresy, that whenever possible, use the LDS's OWN WRITINGS, their own contradictory scriptures, their own apologetics, their own rude, arrogant behavior--and let the Mormons hang themselves. Let them "eat each other"! LOL!

What if I wanted to write a book claiming that Japan won WWII.

Well everyone who knows anything would realize I was a nut. But what if everyone didn't know anything? How could I convince ignorant people that Japan won WWII?

Well I could quote news stories about Japanese victories in the Pacific. I could ignore any stories about Allied victories. I would quote economic figures from the 80s when the Japanese Economy was roaring and the US economy was having problems. I would point out that Japanese Emperor Hirohito lived long after WWII (He died in 1989) but that Franklin D. Roosevelt died in 1945.

I would selectively pile bit upon bit of twisted, cherry-picked evidence to support my absurd theory. I would carefully leave out anything that contradicted it. It would paint a circumstantial picture of a Japanese victory and an allied defeat.

This is what Meldrum has done.

Here's the approach I would take. They are throwing a whole book at you saying "it proves the BOM" etc.

Fine. If you question one point they will turn pages and say, yes, but what about this one? The old "you can't hit a moving target" approach. So do this. Ask them for the ONE best argument and piece of evidence in the book. The BEST. The one that makes the case in the strongest and clearest way. Then look carefully at that piece of evidence. Research that one piece of evidence.

But I warn you, after it has been shown to be weak and highly questionable they will say, "never mind that one, but what about THIS one?" and you will have to go through it all over again.

Thank you, all of you! This forum is the best!

Right now I'm just gathering as much as I can, and sourcing it. If anything blows up, I'll be sure to update. Right now they seem content with just reading it allowed. If they approach me again, I'm going to first ask if they're sure that they really* want to do this. If they are willing to sit with me and do actual, open minded research on the BoM and see what I have to say without getting emotional or bearing their testimonies...holy cow this could be something.

Ask you parents what the Smithsonian has to say about the BoM.

I was invited to participate in an online (written) debate with Meldrum on the historicity of the Book of Mormon.

You can read all four installments (two from me and two from Meldrum) starting at http://packham.n4m.org/historicity.htm


Or you can read the debate (with comments from readers) at http://www.publicsquare.net/bbpress/topic/is-the-book-of-mormon-historically-accurate

============
Edit: I just looked at the comments at publicsquare and it appears that the last 3/4 of them are spam.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2012 08:01PM by RPackham.

"I just really need reliable resources/websites to point them to and show them they wasted that money!"

These are reliable:

"In our opinion, there is no compelling archaeological or genetic evidence for a migration from the Middle East to North America a few thousand years ago, nor is there any credible scientific evidence that Old World civilizations were involved in developing Native American cultures in pre-Columbian times."
http://ohio-archaeology.blogspot.com/2010/12/commentary-on-lost-civilizations-of.html

Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History - Part One: An Alternate Reality
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizations_lost_and_found_fabricating_history_-_part_one_an_alternate_re/

Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History - Part Two: False Messages in Stone
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizations_lost_and_found_fabricating_history_-_part_two_false_messages/

Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History - Part Three: Real Messages in DNA
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizations_lost_and_found_fabricating_history_-_part_three_real_messages/

The last three here are just about the best that I have read. They eviserate Rods science, and level an attack on his religious reasons.

"We are well aware that a claim underlying the Lost Civilizations documentary—that the mound-building people of the American Midwest were migrants from the Middle East 2,000 years ago—may be informed by religious doctrine. It is our position in this paper, however, that whatever inspires this claim is not nearly as important as the fact that it is plainly wrong. As such, we will leave it to others to assess the role played, if any, by religion in shaping Lost Civilizations and focus instead on scientific evidence relevant to that claim."

I don't think I'd even engage in such an argument. I'd be really angry if someone didn't respect my choices and decided to try and change me against my will, which no one can actually do.

I think I'd tell them that they're just going to need to respect my choices and if they can't, then religion is simply going to have to be a subject that we stay away from, if they want to talk to me at all.

Consider a discussion an opportunity of showing them the kind of proofs above.

The Book of Mormon is the cornerstone of the Mormon Church. The BoM describes events that allegedly happened over two thousand years ago. Archaeology is a branch of science whose purpose is to study such ancient history. Encarta (online dictionary) defines it as "the scientific study of ancient cultures through the examination of their material remains such as buildings, graves, tools, and other artifacts usually dug up from the ground."

The world's foremost authority on archaeology is the Smithsonian Institution. A few years ago, some LDS believers circulated a false story claiming that the Smithsonian was using the Book of Mormon as a guide book. The Smithsonian decided to refute that misconception by publicly issuing the following statement:

STATEMENT REGARDING THE BOOK OF MORMON
1. The Smithsonian Institution has never used the Book of Mormon in any way as a scientific guide. Smithsonian archeologists see no direct connection between the archeology of the New World and the subject matter of the book.

2. The physical type of the American Indian is basically Mongoloid, being most closely related to that of the peoples of eastern. central, and northeastern Asia. Archeological evidence indicates that the ancestors of the present Indians came into the New World - probably over a land bridge known to have existed in the Bering Strait region during the last Ice Age - in a continuing series of small migrations beginning from about 25,000 to 30,000 years ago.

3. Present evidence indicates that the first people to reach this continent from the East were the Norsemen who briefly visited the northeastern part of North America around A.D. 1000 and then settled in Greenland. There is nothing to show that they reached Mexico or Central America.

4. One of the main lines of evidence supporting the scientific finding that contacts with Old World civilizations if indeed they occurred at all, were of very little significance for the development of American Indian civilizations, is the fact that none of the principal Old World domesticated food plants or animals (except the dog) occurred in the New World in pre-Columbian times. American Indians had no wheat, barley oats, millet, rice, cattle, pigs, chickens, horses, donkeys, camels before 1492. (Camels and horses were in the Americas, along with the bison, mammoth, and mastodon, but all these animals became extinct around 10,000 B.C. at the time when the early big game hunters spread across the Americas.)

5. Iron, steel, glass, and silk were not used in the New World before 1492 (except for occasional use of unsmelted meteoric iron). Native copper was worked in various locations in pre-Columbian times, but true metallurgy was limited to southern Mexico and the Andean region, where its occurrence in late prehistoric times involved gold, silver, copper, and their alloys, but not iron.

6. There is a possibility that the spread of cultural traits across the Pacific to Mesoamerica and the northwestern coast of South America began several hundred years before the Christian era. However, any such inter-hemispheric contacts appear to have been the results of accidental voyages originating in eastern and southern Asia. It is by no means certain that even such contacts occurred; certainly there were no contacts with the ancient Egyptians, Hebrews, or other peoples of Western Asian and the Near East.

7. No reputable Egyptologist or other specialist on Old World archeology, and no expert on New World prehistory, has discovered or confirmed any relationship between archeological remains in Mexico and archeological remains in Egypt.

8. Reports of findings of ancient Egyptian Hebrew, and other Old World writings in the New World in pre-Columbian contexts have frequently appeared in newspapers, magazines, and sensational books. None of these claims has stood up to examination by reputable scholars. No inscriptions using Old World forms of writing have been shown to have occurred in any part of the Americas before 1492 except for a few Norse rune stones which have been found in Greenland.