It has to do with (whether Peterson has figured this out or not) Emma Smith being in on Joseph Smith's con job, per the Book of Mormon "translation."

Emma said that Joe (as Peterson declares), read off of a rock inside of a hat, even while the "plates" were supposedly on the table in front of the both of them, wrapped in a linen cloth that she had given him for the purpose of hiding them from view.

She says (Peterson also notes) that she never actually looked at the plates, but simply fondled them through the cloth and heard them "rustle."

Emma also (Peterson indicates) claimed that she was present while the "plates" were being openly "translated" (in front of not only her but others, and not behind some curtain) by her huckster husband who she said was essentially incapable of writing cogent letters but, rather, relied on a "peepstone" placed in a hat.

Peterson, by the way, refuses to refer to the peepstone as a "rock." We will have none of this calling a rock a rock. Instead, Peterson calls it--ahem--a "director."

Mormon insanity at its best. No wonder no one's buying it, even (according to Peterson's own admission) in Mormondumb (and he even hopes somebody will "youtube" it. No wonder he's considered a "scholar" in Utah):

http://onewontdoit.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/alfred-e-newman-web11.jpg
_____


(link compliments of SLCabbie)



Edited 17 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2011 02:18PM by steve benson.

But I couldn't just fondle through the sheet. I'd have to lift it up and look.

I'm not buying that Emma wouldn't have looked and checked everything out when Joesph was in the bathroom.

I can't believe Petersen can keep dancing around all that crap.

There were never any plates, not even fake ones for Emma to describe. The head in the hat was already an established practice and all witnesses described the same process happened with the plates being "elsewhere". I believe Emma’s description of the process but cannot support real or fake plates ever existed.

I think we have to take anything Emma says with a grain of salt. Add lard-ass Danny to the mix, and we have another faith-promoting tall tale.

So my question is to you men with wives. From your experience of being married, is there ANY scenario that you could imagine in which you claimed to possess golden plates, kept them wrapped in a rag on the kitchen table, and your wife didn't A) demand to see them or B) take a peek while you weren't looking?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2011 08:31PM by sonoma.

I could figure out what you wrote. I shouldn't have said anything. No need to apologize to me - I apologize to you! I've edited my post to leave just the pertinent comments, which may or may not make any sense themselves.

The whole description of the invisible plates and the hat/rock method of translation is farcical. Sure glad it ain't me having to defend it.

As a convert, admittedly kept under-informed and not doing much to change that, I had no clue about the hats, the heads or the rocks.

I was gobsmacked when I first read that DCP is a convert too. Wow. We sure took different paths.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2011 10:25PM by Nightingale.

Nightingale Wrote: [in part]


-------------------------------------------------------
> ....
> I was gobsmacked when I first read that DCP is a
> convert too. Wow. We sure took different paths.

I didn't know DCP was a convert!

I read somewhere a while back that DCP is a convert to Mormonism. Somebody posted a direct quote from him about it not long ago but I forget where I saw it. I think he said he started looking into Mormonism in high school and he really liked it. I'm not sure which, if any, family members joined with or after he did.

It can be difficult for a convert to admit they made a mistake or didn't look into it deeply enough, so that keeps some in their chosen group. For other converts, though, they can end up with more meaningful conversion experiences that cement them in more so than many BICs are.

I think this is especially so in Mormonism as it teaches adherents to imbue even one experience with abundant spiritual significance such that even when confronting massive cog-diss and much evidence to contradict one's beliefs and experiences many can still rationalize maintaining their beliefs. I have read countless comments to the effect that the member has many questions and doubts but "I received a powerful testimony on my mission and I can't deny that" [so therefore I'm stuck in this church for the duration because if I leave it feels like I'm discounting that meaningful occurrence].

I gave a talk once at a missionary zone meeting and one of the elders told me after that he had "never received such a strong testimony of Joseph Smith". Yaiiiii. (And I never even mentioned JS in my talk; weird how that goes). I often wonder if that is all that held him in and I regret that very much if so. (I knew a lot of very depressed-seeming missionaries and many that were only on the mission after being coerced into it by Mormon culture and/or bribed by their parents. One I knew who hated every second of every day only went out on a promise of his parents buying him the sports car of his dreams when he returned home "with honour"). That kind of thing is pretty demoralizing for a convert. (I mean, does anybody in the church really believe in it? Anybody? Or is the whole foundation built on the shaky premise of "fake it til you make it"? Sometimes I think so. A fellow convert and myself often looked at each other in SM and whispered "naked emperor" - it took me a long time to realize there's a lot of that going on - elephants and emperors all over the damn place).

Not that I think DCP is in that camp. I think he really believes in Mormonism. I can't believe anyone would disbelieve and still remain in so deep. What kind of a life would that be?

But yeah, observing one of the best known Mormon apologists, it's a surprise to many to find out that he is not BIC.

At least, that is what I've read.

Interesting psych dynamics, for sure.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2011 02:52AM by Nightingale.

I e-mailed Steve with the link saying that Pefesser Peterson had convinced me that Emma was in on the con...

Excellent account there, Doctor...

Here's the video link...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiNgnk_L748



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2011 06:17AM by SL Cabbie.

Emma speaking to her son on the question of whether or not Joe coulda deceived her and had a secret manuscript stashed on his person.

"If he had anything of the kind he could not have concealed it from me."

And we all know how Emma knew everything Joe was doing behind her back.

"Nor did Emma believe Joseph Smith was capable of inventing the Book of Mormon, dictating it off the top of his head. Quote: 'Joseph Smith could neither write nor dictate a coherent and well worded letter'."

Then either all Smith's HC journal entries were fabrications by scribes, and Spalding/Rigdon wrote it, or Emma is a liar.

and that she denied it even happened— at least to her sons— makes it hard for me to take much that she said as reliable.

It seems she was more interested in keeping up appearances than in telling the truth.

That said, IIRC Emma and Martin were both threatened with death if they looked upon the plates. Maybe they believed. In 1829 Emma was relatively newly married and likely hadn't seen Joe's true colors yet. By 1844 after all of the wives and conveient revelations she seems to have known Joseph was a liar but maybe in those first few years she believed him.

I kept copies of Hustler hidden from my wife for years and years. Okay, that's a lie, but I could have. :)

Ron

There was a statement in Vogel's "Early Mormon Documents, Vol. 1" where Sophronia, I believe, also said that she was cleaning around the plates which were under a cloth and she heard them "rustle." It's very similar to Emma's statement. I think that must have been a talking point for the Smith women.

BTW, I wouldn't put much stock in anything Peterson says. He seems to have some sort of rectal-cranial inversion.

Joseph's reputation for making a living as a con man was already well established.

When the family had money, Emma knew where it came from.

When money was short, Emma knew the methods Joseph would use to get it.

Because she most certainly liked having money and had no other way to get it, it is very likely that she was supporting the scheme, at least passively, and that Joseph expected her to do so.

And in retrospect, it would have been very unlikely that she would confess it in the manner I just described.

How do brass plates "rustle?"

Emma heard they were leaves of gold, and leaves rustle...

(do I need to put a smiley on that one?)

No, I get it (snort snort).

It appears that the interviewer probably knew the real hat/rock story and Danny got a funny look on his face just before being forced to admit to a nationwide audience that "...Actually, most of the translation was done with a rock in a hat..."

He verified, as truthful, one of the 'anti-mormon lies' and created more than a few exmos with his scholarship.

I still haven't figured what he was referring to, but I don't think it was polygamy or blood atonement...

Ah, what the heck... Okay if I indulge myself? This is one of my better works--inspired by substrate/runtu--and it deserves an encore (DCP was busted admitting that he lurked here).

"Top Ten Reasons Daniel C. Peterson Reads the RFM Bulletin Board"

http://www.salamandersociety.com/interviews/danielcpeterson/

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2011 04:59PM by steve benson.

It's way far back in my (faulty) memory bank but my impression of his meaning, iirc, was that Mormonism was distinct from all the other religions out there. Maybe if new ideas or directions are meaningful to you that would make some sense. A new thought amidst the dross can make a thing seem exciting. And JS being singled out by God and him hiking about with plates of gold, big-time secrets for humankind and a special place for himself and his followers in the highest of heavenly spots while all the other religionists are spouting the same old/same old could seem pretty exciting to some people.

So, my interpretation of DCP's statement on that is that JS' Mormonism stands out at that time amidst all the other established religious ideas because it was different and being different is exciting, no?

I'm more on the side of those who express a desire to kick JS' big fat backside if they get to heaven and trip over him there (which would make it hard to identify the place as being heaven, I'd think).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2011 03:00AM by Nightingale.

Didn't Emma pretty much hate JS by the end though? She had to have known who he was. I think it was Brigham Young (?) that accused her of trying to poison her husband on a couple different occasions. (don't know if that is accepted fact though.)

One thing she said that was interesting was that she heard them "rustle." Gold is a soft metal and wouldn't rustle or make a metalic sound if thin sheets were placed together. It's much like lead and is rather a dead sounding metal. Tin, however, is harder and would rustle just nicely.

What she really said was "hustle."