I have an almost 25 year old daughter, who is very TBM. My husband is concerned because she is so immature for her age! I know in the past, a common topic on this board is how the church in general, the single adults program, etc. keeps one "as a child". For instance, some of the girls had a "sleepover" last night as a SA activity, only they didn't stay all night. They wore p.j.'s, ate snacks, etc. like a 12 year old would do, but then they came back home. She has many friends in the single adult ward, who are her age and still living with their parents and have a very "young" mentality.

So, what I would like from you all, is to make a comment on this thread if you agree that the church keeps people in that child-state and I will share your comments with my husband. I don't know if he would take the issue seriously, if I were the only one to say it, so I would like to show him that this is not just "my idea", but a common belief.

Thanks in advance for all your great comments and opinions.

Any patriarchal theistic enterprise requires its membership to submit themselves to authority figures. The easiest way to ensure adults continue to submit themselves to authority is to convince them they're still children.

That's why nobody calls the god of mormonism "elohim", they call him "Heavenly Father", even though he's not their father but more of a boss in a god-making pyramid scheme. Presumably, according to kolobian doctrine, we've all existed just as long as elohim, so calling him father is silly. He just created bodies for us when we were recruited to his downline.

Anyway, adults are more likely to question so-called authority figures like bishops, stake presidents, etc. Children are taught never to question authority and to obey.

That's why it works in the kolobians' favor to foster an atmosphere in which the general membership are childish sheep, the authorities are wise sheepdogs, and the shepherd is constantly frightening them with stories of wolves and other predators that want to tear them to pieces.

It also helps that the church retards critical thinking skills. The sheep never actually stop to ask what the shepherd is getting out of all this: oh yeah, he shaves off their wool for clothes and eats them for dinner.

two missing items, for context:

Is your hubby her father?
Does DD live with you (MOM) or by herself?

My husband is her step father.

She lives at home with both of us and is no where near capable (financially) of being able to move out.

I love her dearly, but I totally agree she is very immature for 25 years old.

I get in trouble for being blunt...so I guess I'm looking for trouble..

A child's upbringing should mostly be done by his/her PARENTS....It appears by your post that you let the church do all the maturity and social upbringing for your daughter, because she was alwys in YW's or mutual or whatever where I am sure you knew what they were doing then.

To all of a sudden bemoan what the church has done to your daughter....some of this is on the parents.

You'll have to own some of it...




Sorry for the bluntness...flame away....

I am not going to flame you, but of course she went to YW and all that, because at the time I was a TBM, too. I was doing what I thought was right at the time.

I'm not trying to take NO responsibility for the way my child turned out. I'm not sure how I gave that impression. I raised two daughters, both of them brought up the same, both raised in the church, both went to college. My older daughter left the church, moved across the country and is very independent, living on her own, while the daughter that remained in the church is still emotionally immature. I have noticed that her circle of friends from the Single Adults are also mid 20's and having a very immature mentality. I am only saying that I think some of it is a result of the "mormonism". But if I were to say that to my husband in a conversation, he would claim the church had nothing to do with her immaturity. So I wanted to get some feed back from you guys.

Most Mormons I know were acting like adults at 25. If any thing my observation is the LDS church forces them to grow up and get married too fast.

Yes there are ways that the Mormon church stunts development, but I'm not seeing the connection here.

I am having trouble understanding this
no college?
no marriage?
just now realizing it?

It is what it is then, she is an ADULT

I am sorry.

Is she a special needs person?

and what are you looking for by asking input? To change her? or?

This has got to hurt you, I am so sorry



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2012 10:47AM by mindlight.

Apparently, I did not articulate very well in my original post. I have two daughters, raised the exact same way, one left the church, the other did not. The one that left is a very independent woman, living across the country on her own. The daughter still in the church is just not very mature for 25 years old and is living at home with us. I am not trying to "get rid" of her, but I would like to see her be able to live independently like her sister. She is bi-polar, but not "special needs". She has been to college and does work, even though she doesn't make a lot of money. My husband and I were talking about why she was not as "grown up" as she should be at 25 and I think the church is a part of that. (Not the whole reason, by any means) All I'm saying here is that if I say that to my husband, who is also TBM, he will think I am just mormon bashing, but if others chime in that the church tends to keep us in a child-like state, he may take me more seriously. I NEVER meant that I was not taking responsibility for the way my child turned out!

Kori said "My suggestion is to put your daughter in a situation where she will be forced to stop sweeping life under a rug, waiting for the cute guy to make her life make sense and vaildate all the childlike thinking."

I think that is exactly what she is doing. She figures she doesn't need to grow up, or move out, or whatever, because she will move out when she gets married and she doesn't need to really persue any type of career because she will be a stay at home mom. This brings me back to the church encouraging this type of thinking, and therefore, stifling the normal maturity process.

Honestly, I seriously doubt that telling him a bunch of anonymous online apostates agree with you is going to win you any points with him in this argument.

This seems like an argument that is just going to put up walls between the two of you.

But if you want some ammo:
http://www.mormonprobe.com/index.php?topic=By%20Their%20Fruits

This is much deeper than what you are talking about, but it is the root cause of the problem:

Christ taught that he wanted people to go from being servants/sheep to being heirs/shepards. There are many parables and stories to illustrate this: the prodigal son, the brother of Jared, the garden of eden, etc

The point of this doctrine is that we as people need to break from being told what to do, (doing) to making ispired decisions on our own (becoming). Thus we are not just checking off a list of "I do this and I dont do that". This higher law was brought down by moses to his people, they rejected it, since they were in a mindset that did not really want to leave egypt to begin with, sure it was miserable, but they were not responsable. They put their freedom is God's hands and suffered for it. When Moses came along, they resented that someone would take them from their comfort zone.

Christ reiterated this doctrine when he told Peter that he would build his church on "this rock", meaning the principle of personal revelation. When he departed, his disciples wanted to know who was going to tell them what to "do" he said he would send the Holy Ghost to lead them, that isnpiration would set them free from men and laws and churches.

Mormonism used to teach this doctrine. That we are to work out our own salavation...not anymore...

Slowly, mormonism stopped being the vehicle for people's salvation. It became the destination. They began removing doctrines and writing that taught freedom and emphasized obedience to the church. You will notice that most sunday school lessons end with a "and that is why we should just do what we are told"...

This new philisophy of fear, of the devil making you do things, of embarassment for non-comformity worked wonders in making people's faith a blind faith, where no personal growth was encouraged. It helped the church transition out of polygamy and it helped dissipate the worries about so many doctrinal changes that took place in a short time period.
Do as the prophet says, he cant lead you astray!!!! Do what the prohet tells you, even if its wrong, you will be blessed!!!

One of the many consequences of this evil teaching is just what you are describing with your daughter. She was raised in culture where 30 year old men can spend 6 hours a day playing halo, where the women are obsesed with finding a cute guy, in a cute house, with a cute car...There is no depth to mormonism, not anymore.

We tend to keep this "most precious" generation in glass box, becuase we "know" what will have to face soon! gag...in reality we are keeping them from thw world, reality and from consequences, in order words, we are keeping them from growing up. We have filled them with a new fairy tale religion that promises nonesense, all yo have to do is get married in the temple/pay your tithing, go to church, read the book, obey...and you will have the perfect husband, family, job...

My suggestion is to put your daughter in a situation where she will be forced to stop sweeping life under a rug, waiting for the cute guy to make her life make sense and vaildate all the childlike thinking.

Make her be responsable, do service outside of church, make her read book that are not LDS, make her travel to other countries or at least learn about other philosophies and cultures.

Talk to her about politics, policies, history, in short make up for the many years of social, emotional and spiritual stunted growth, there is no shortcut...if you dont you will pass her off to an iqually inmature husband so he can raise her, often this happens after 20 years of a bad marriage or at the expense of your grandkids.

Baaaaaaaaaa

I don't think this can be blamed on the morg. There are a lot of us who went through the morg growing up and who were independent in our 20's.

I see it as a reflection on society as a whole. The other day I read an article about college educated "kids" still living at home with mommy and daddy because they can't afford to live on their own (complete BS).

If you want your daughter to grow up and become more mature, push her out of the nest slowly and make her grow up. Some people never will unless forced to.

Rachel, I agree with what you are saying and I am trying to gently push her out of the nest. I don't blame the morg entirely, I am only saying that the idea that she is going to get married and be a stay at home mom doesn't in any way encourage her to move on her own or persue a career. She is waiting for the "Mormon Dream". By the way, even when I was TBM, I constantly encouraged my girls to do more with their lives then be wives and mothers.

Good luck with your daughter. One of the things my husband and I had to do was make my daughters get jobs when they came back home to live with us. They also had to pay a small amount of rent -- no way I'm supporting full grown adults when they have the means to help out. They were also given a certain amount of time to save money up for an apartment, say six months or so, and were expected to get back on their feet in that amount of time. Without their knowledge, I saved the rent money they gave to me and gave it to them when they moved out so they'd have a little bit of a nest egg.

I spent way too much of my life raising my brothers and then my children. It was time for me to live my life and my girls to live theirs. We're still pretty close and no harm was done.

"I am only saying that the idea that she is going to get married and be a stay at home mom doesn't in any way encourage her to move on her own or persue a career."

I posted about TBM guy at work mad at his daughter going to BYU on a scholarship. What he is mad about is because of the new lower missionary age, she is wasting her time at college until she can go on a mission. It's like as the young kids get older (my perspective) then the church does all the raising and influencing.."Dad is mad at me about not taking college seriously...so what, the church is what/who I want to please..."


Like someone else posted, at 25 she is on the wrong side of 20 when it comes to available RMs....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2012 10:00AM by nonmo.

IMHO Linda K. Burton is the perfect example of the dingbat that Mormons Inc. wants their women to be like.

She isn't a real woman. She's woman-substitute. Inflate with air-pump or vaccuum and insert plug in air-hole.

Thanks for the link. Gotta finish watching at home. I am at work, can't watch the whole thing right now.

Sorry - YOU don't need to finish watching it - I wouldn't want you to try to poke your eyes out or stick a letter opener in your ear or anything like that while at work.

The whole speech is incredible - she babbles onward through myth after myth emphasizing how it is the role of women to mindlessly know their place and suffer - preferably in silence - no matter what.

People like her make me extremely optimistic about the impending collapse of the human race. LOL!

And they had juvenile activities. Stuff that was okay as a teen, but stupid as an adult. My husband had the same experience in his singles ward, as well, and his ward was mostly over 30 years old. When we met, we had both moved away from those stupid activities to planning our own get togethers, and going on trips with friends.

I don't think having a "slumber party" is that weird. I had one just this year with a group of about 15 exmo women. Guys go hunting, women have "girl's night out", or whatever.

The things that would concern me would be her still living at home and acting juvenile. I don't know if it's possible to determine if the church caused that or not, but I would move towards correcting it. Start charging her room and board and give her adult responsibilities at home. Teach her how to fix things. Make her a partner in household management.

Or give her a date to move out, and help her set goals to save for a security deposit and learn to manage her money, if she needs that. Don't approach it like kicking her out, but as helping her become a self-sufficient adult. If her goal is marriage, she should become self-sufficient FIRST. She's much more likely to attract a real man who will respect her if she's an independent woman. And if a guy doesn't come along, at least she can create a fulfilling life of her own.

Maybe she could move into an apartment with some of those other girls who still live at home, or if you can encourage her to move in with someone more independent who already has their own place, that might encourage her along to greater maturity.

I don't know how somebody that age can stand to live at home. No offense to you, but I moved back home for a year after I graduated college, and it about drove me nuts to live with my parents again.

I AGREE with kolobian!

TSCC WANTS to have members who will Kow-Tow to leadership, and, as we ALL KNOW, women's leadership possibilities are Severely Restricted in TSCC.

How could that Not effect women, thru All their lives?

How could it Not inhibit growth of the church?

women tend to be more collaborative, perhaps the best example of this was when differing if not opposing factions of 'leaders' considered (some For, some Against) the Blacks / PH issue of the 70's.

If women had been allowed into the Q15, we would have had Much Different process if not outcome (may have occurred earlier).

+1 Exactly. This made me think that especially for BIC, you spent your FORMATIVE YEARS in the church. That stuff stays with you. Many of us fight those knee jerk reactions the rest of our lives even long after we've seen the flaw of it.

How could it not affect you all your life?

Some people don't grow up until they have to. I know.

There is something inside of us that makes us who we are. If your daughter is prone to postponing maturing, the church certainly would be her best ally. It can't stop you from maturing if that is who you are, but if you need a push in the direction of self sufficiency, their mantra of obey, obey, obey, marry an RM and obey him too, is not going to be helpful.

I saw the lie of the church during my last year at BYU and began living in two worlds. One in SLC on the weekend and of course during the week living with all the "deciples" at BYU.

The difference between the women from each group was extreme. The non mormons in Salt Lake in general were career focused and figuring out life. The women at BYU, in general, were reading Fascinating Womanhood and baking cookies for missionaries and dropped out of school at the first sighting of an engagement ring.

Your daughter will not change until she is forced to is my opinion. Most of the girls at BYU started growing up when they did get married and found out a couple of babies at an early age and putting their husband through school wasn't the great joyous gospel moment they thought it would be.

My own SIL begged my brother to quit school. She's glad he didn't because they are rich now. But she is now the woman on the pedestal who's growth hit another plateau.

I don't care what anyone else says. The church rewards women for being 'less than'. Many women won't accept that. Others will consider it a pat on the back, or an excuse to take a pass from real life.

It's trials and tribulations that make a real honest gutsy person. Fake slumber parties at 25 is scary unless, of course, they are having margaritas instead of hot cocoa.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2012 11:37AM by blueorchid.

Blaming the church is pointless.

Blaming yourself is pointless.

Of course both these played a part. The church keeps her in a state of valuing herself for what she ISN'T instead of for what she IS. She is to sit on the shelf as an unlicked cupcake waiting to be picked by a returned missionary. This is a passive orientation to life, waiting for something to happen. That's the church's part of the problem.

The parent's part in this failure to launch is to assume that the church and school are providing all the stimulation your child needs. No, they are not. Read the book "The Outliers." Malcolm Gladwell talks about what is the independent variable in why children of equally high IQ's had such different results in the success of their lives.

It turned out that the one--the MAIN ingredient for success was the parent teaching the child to negotiate the adult world to get what they need. The example is used of a Jewish mother who tells her 12 year old son they are going to the doctor. She tells him the doctor is there to help him figure out what's going on with his body and he can ask him anything. She stands down and let's the kid ask the doctor. The doctor is deferential to the child because the mother is present and the doctor is respectful, speaking to him as an adult. The child gains confidence and continues the conversation, asking questions and getting answers to things his mother didn't know were at issue. That child is learning to function with confidence in the adult world.

The other example I'll give is the highest IQ child they followed from the fifties. He lives in a ranch in Montana and does math and physics problems "for fun." He writes white papers "for fun." None of them will ever be published because he is completely lacking in academic credentials. Humanity is the loser on the remarkable insights such a high IQ can provide. Why? Because he couldn't get an afternoon class when he needed one his first year in college. He didn't know you could go to the department head and they might override what the scheduling office said was the class size limit. He never saw anyone succeed at confronting just normal bureaucratic obstacles.

This is not your fault, but your child was raised in an environment that did not prepare her for real life. More so than a male Mormon child, she has been living in a world where she succeeded by NOT being something. All she has to do is be a virgin and she's 100% qualified to be a top-tier Mormon bride.
It's ok if she didn't even graduate from high school, let alone go forward, go to college, get good grades, pick a career, etc. This model of life for a girl is straight from the fifties. Might as well ask her, like my mother did, "IF you don't become a mother, would you rather be a stewardess, a secretary, a nurse or a teacher?"

She never had to negotiate squat to get what she needed from the world - she's always had you. Were you the one asking questions at the doctor or did you give your child the questions? I'll tell you that I was the one when I was Mormon.

The girls in Mormonism do not have the pressure but they also don't have the stimulation. No girl scouts. No activities that expose them to other ideas, other religions, other people's thoughts. It's as though the mind is to be kept virginal as well as the body.

All that is good only for insight rather than blame. With this understanding, you can take action to help your daughter move forward. The most important thing is for you and your husband to realize that your daughter is where she should be, based on who she is and what she's experienced. Because complete acceptance and relaxation is necessary for you two and for her. It's not her fault either and it's not an emergency. She will move forward and you can help her by providing some simulation.

This is what drives children to move on- stimulation and curiosity. What experiences might I have on my own as an adult? But what if they have picked up the idea that new experiences are dangerous? Or unnecessary?

It is never too late to open a mind and let some fresh air in. Now I don't know your daughter or your finances but can you travel? Find an interest of your daughter's and select an activity that springboards off that. If she has no interests, or few (which is quite common in girls), making crafts isn't going to cut it. Sculpture, art, music, literature--these awaken the creative spirit. Get her the book "The Artist's Way" by Julia Cameron. It's a workbook and it will teach her to make an artist's date once a week for herself TO ENRICH HER IMAGINATION.

This is the key, honey, rekindle her imagination and ignite her curiosity. It will take a little time, but however much time it takes, you are reviving a unique human spirit like no other. It is never too late for that. I'm doing it with a 35 year old daughter right now. For her it started with me telling her to stop caring what I think and start realizing that what SHE thinks is to be her key in life.

If she starts bipping and bopping around doing new things- going rock hunting, going fossil hunting, going to art classes, taking flying lessons, making clay pots, SOMEWHERE something will light her fire and that will be the boost she needs to see that being a fully realized authentic adult is much more exciting than being a child.

You sound like a loving mother and I hope this has been encouraging for you. You developed your own values (probably already had interests) but your daughter may need to emulate you in this regard.

Best

Anagrammy

I want to thank you all for your insight. As one poster said, it is probably not a good idea to share these posts with my husband. Even though, he is pretty open minded about things you guys say. I share a lot with him that I read here.

More importantly, you have all given me some insight and some ideas, and I appreciate all of the comments.

I'm really grateful for this advice too Anagrammy.

I wish I'd had your advice 30 years ago.

It keeps them "teachable and obedient."

Having commandments about what you can and can't eat; what you can and can't watch, read, listen to; what you can and can't wear are ALL things that keep this "child-like" state for all of its members. Couple this with the church's heavy-handedness on limiting activities to "wholesome" which some members might define themselves as having childish activities.

So you and your daughter were both raised for a long time in this system.

It would be a tricky situation because at 25 she would be seen in the church as "old" for being single.

Most of the single girls are 18-19 trying to score 21 year old guys.

I'm not so sure it's the Church that has the most influence here.

I'm in my 50s now, and have been married for over 20 years, but for many years I was like your daughter. I went to college and then to law school, but then moved back home for a year or two. Though I was in my late 20s I was socially immature and never went on dates. My friends were Mormons I knew from high school or even before, and one was even married. But we acted like kids, not adults.

It took me a while, but I left home and went out on my own at age 28. I gradually left the Mormon Church and two years later I got married, and grew up.

My wife and I now have two sons in college. One of those sons is outgoing and socially mature, much like my wife was. The other one is quiet and socially immature, like I was. Neither has ever had anything to do with the Church. Who knows why they are that way. That's just the way they are.

My point is, your daughter may just be being herself. We live in a society that rewards outgoing people. Those of us who are less socially aware tend to suffer. That's not really fair, but that's the way it is. The Church, in my opinion, has little to do with it.

Feel free to prod your daughter, as people have suggested. But if I were you, I would just let it be. Love her and help her. Discuss it with her and see if she feels good about it. I've always found it best to talk with the person involved, rather than talk with others about them.

You say she is bi-polar. If she is seeing a counselor, you may want to encourage her to raise the issue with the counselor. I would not be married now if I had not had some psychotherapy that gave me the courage and the tools to go out and find a wife. The Mormon Church gave me none of that. But then again, I wouldn't expect it to.

Good luck with your daughter. We always feel responsible for our children, and the way they turn out. But we probably shouldn't. I know my parents, both still stalwart Mormons, worry that they failed me because I left the Church so long ago. But that had nothing to do with them. That was my choice.

I was traveling with a group of 20 to 30 year-old co-workers from Utah Valley. We went to dinner and I was SHOCKED at the immature behavior, naivete and stupid level of conversation of these professional adults! They seriously acted like they were 13 year-olds when they encountered other singles. I had worked in San Francisco prior to coming to Utah and it was shocking to me. I think the mormons purposely keep un-married women and men in this time warp for a purpose but believe me, I can't imagine what they are trying to prove other than making only married people seem like adults. Maybe preferably married with about 5 kids...that will knock the riff-raff out of just about anybody!