Never, never girls or women.

I was surprised to notice the huge controversy while I was gone for a day or two. All over my mentioning that I have attended Catholic services and seen women help officiate at communion. Yes, that is true.

Did I say women women "consecrate?" No, because I have no interest in what exact role the women fulfill, only that Catholic women can be involved in an area of their faith denied to mormon women. That was the subject I commented on and as I said I have zero interest in Catholic communion aside from that little fact.

In the mormon church girls and women are banned from the simple little job of passing around bread and water, while in the Catholic Church a women can speed up the ritual by passing out waffers and wine.

Sorry, but I have to laugh at all of the exploding controversy over a little side issue which doesn't relate or contribute to the point of a post. Talk about a tempest in a teapot. LOL

Which is actually in violation (almost always) of the commandment at D&C 20:46, 50, which says that a priest (teenage boy) should NOT bless the sacrament unless there is NO ELDER present! If any elder is present, the priest is not authorized to bless the sacrament.

Wow! Hang on!!

>50 But when there is an elder present, he is only to preach, teach, expound, exhort, and baptize,

Priests are allowed to baptise? Really?

Baptism is only an Aaronic priesthood ordinance.

Then I know of mormons in violation. LOL

Very interesting.

In a Catholic church, women would be seen on the altar in the following capacities:

1. Reader (reads Old Testament or Epistle aloud, or leads intercessory prayers)

2. Choir/musician/cantor (duh)

3. Altar server/acolyte

4. Eucharistic minister (helps priest to distribute consecrated bread and wine)

5. Bearer of the gifts (of bread and wine); often a couple is chosen to bring the wine and bread to the altar, pre-consecration. I think this is tradition, however, so there is no restriction against asking any two parishioners in good standing to bring the gifts.

In an Episcopal Church, you'd see all of the above, plus the priest could be a woman, too.

In the Christian Church I attend women can,and do,the same things the men do. That's why I love it. After being a second class citizen for 57 years I can compete with the big boys now!

Women should NOT be pacified by being allowed to pass out bread and wine. Women should be allowed to have full access to all positions of power. Sorry, passing out wine and bread is NOT a power sharing position.

maybe being allowed to polish the pope's shoes? Wash the priest's garb?

I'm sorry, but being "allowed" to hand out bread and wine while being denied any real power is still demeaning of women. Women deserve to share power in all aspects of life. They should NOT be bought off by being "allowed" to hand out bread and wine.

I'm sorry, but women are denied power in both the RCC and the LDS church. Because one "allows" women to pass out bread and wine does nothing to change the fact that both deny power to women.

Gee, MJ, you really know how to take one word "allow" and blow it up like a balloon and it bursts in your face.

Most women who play a role in a liturgy take pride in what they are doing. They aren't thinking the same way you do. "Allow" is the last thing that is on their mind.

So, don't presume that what you think is what they think.

Martin1110 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gee, MJ, you really know how to take one word
> "allow" and blow it up like a balloon and it
> bursts in your face.
>
> Most women who play a role in a liturgy take pride
> in what they are doing. They aren't thinking the
> same way you do. "Allow" is the last thing that is
> on their mind.
>
> So, don't presume that what you think is what they
> think.

I'd like to see women hold the priesthood too, but, whether MJ thinks so or not, Catholic women play a bigger role in their church than Mormon women do.

I will bet more Mormon women clean the toilets of their churches as a calling than Catholic Churches, should we celebrate that?

Playing a "bigger role" is really just lipstick on a pig if they are still denied power.

So, by your logic, I guess we should not be critical of Muslim treatment of women.

Some LDS women cherish the role set out by TSCC, so by your logic, we should not be critical of the treatment of women by TSCC.

Just because some women have been brainwashed to accept a second class role does not make it right.

I have NO problem with women cherishing the role of wearing a burka, cleaning church toilets, or handing out bread and wine, PROVIDED they have a FULL CHOICE or access to all possible jobs, including all leadership roles, and they can CHOOSE which roles to pursue.

The RCC, TSCC, or Muslim Churches do not allow women full access to power positions, and should be criticized for it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2010 08:08PM by MJ.

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, by your logic, I guess we should not be
> critical of Muslim treatment of women.
>
> Some LDS women cherish the role set out by TSCC,
> so by your logic, we should not be critical of the
> treatment of women by TSCC.
>
> Just because some women have been brainwashed to
> accept a second class role does not make it right.
>
>
> I have NO problem with women cherishing the role
> of wearing a burka, cleaning church toilets, or
> handing out bread and wine, PROVIDED they have a
> FULL CHOICE or access to all possible jobs,
> including all leadership roles, and they can
> CHOOSE which roles to pursue

My belief is that if I am not a Catholic, then how they run their church is really none of my business. They can do it however they like so long as they are not breaking laws or doing physical harm to anyone.I have a right to decide whether or not I wish to associate with them. I do not have a right to make their rules. Women who do not like it can leave or they can also choose not to join. Churches have a legal right to make their own rules and outsiders don't get a say providing no laws are broken.

There efforts to enforce their views about gays by pushing for laws that reflect their view puts their values up for pubic debate.

If they want to claim their values are superior to others, then their values are up for debate.

So, don't join and fight their gay bigotry, but don't tell them how to run their own business. Once they interfere in law, such as they did when supporting Prop 8, you have every right to resist but you have no right to tell them who can be a priest.They have a right to run their church as they see fit, but they have no right to run California. There is a difference.Same for the Morg. They can make any legal rules they want for their members but they have no right to tell me how to vote or whether I can drink.

Then I have every right to be critical of their value -> SYSTEM <-. By attacking my values, I now have every right to say why their SYSTEM of values is not a SYSTEM of values that should be the law of the land.

They clearly value the denying women positions of power, it is one of the aspects of their value SYSTEM that shows that their SYSTEM is FLAWED.

They want to rant about my values, then turn around is fair play.

I mean seriously, where do you come up with this double standard BS? They can call me an abomination but I can't be critical of their denying women positions of power? That is unbelievable BS even coming from you.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2010 08:31PM by MJ.

Whatever. You can be critical.I'm criticcal. No problem. That isn't the issue. The issue is that they can make their own internal rules and there is nothing you can do about it but bitch. So go ahead and bitch if it makes you feel better. BTW. I don't agree with them either.

Do you just make this stuff up as you go along?

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do you just make this stuff up as you go along?No, that would be you. Bye, MJ.

The reality is, I have every right to be critical of anything I want. You ranted that I can not tell them who can and can not be priests, well, I beg you to show where I demanded that women should be priests. I have NOT. I am critical of them for denying women possitions of power and I have every right to do so, I DO NOT NEED BONA'S permission.

BTW, being critical of them for something is NOT the same as demanding a change. I am critical of them because it shows that their values should no be the law of the land.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2010 08:39PM by MJ.

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The reality is, I have every right to be critical
> of anything I want. You ranted that I can not tell
> them who can and can not be priests, well, I beg
> you to show where I demanded that women should be
> priests. I have NOT. I am critical of them for
> denying women possitions of power and I have every
> right to do so, I DO NOT NEED BONA'S permission.
>
> BTW, being critical of them for something is NOT
> the same as demanding a change. I am critical of
> them because it shows that their values should no
> be the law of the land.


I agree that you have every right to be critical AND I SAID SO. However, the first amendment allows them and all religions to make their own internal rules. I kind of like the First Amendment. Do you have a problem with it?It has worked pretty well for 200 plus years. BTW, I think you are the one doing the ranting. Now, please, get the last word in. I have other things to do.Have a nice night.

bona dea Wrote:

>
> I agree that you have every right to be critical
> AND I SAID SO.

Then why are you posting? All I was doing was being critical of the RCC, since you AGREE I have every right to do so, why have you been bitching at me?

Seriously, Bona, you need to take a chill pill.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2010 08:51PM by MJ.

Better that men give up that foolishness.

I do favor equality between males and females in church organizations. As I see it, Catholics are ahead of mormons. Not that either has progressed much beyond the 1950s.

Muslims? They're still usually stuck where many mormon polygamist groups dwell, in the dark ages.

I am critical of religious fanticism and make no apologies for for not enabling racism, homophobia, and sexism.

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Better that men give up that foolishness.
>
> I do favor equality between males and females in
> church organizations. As I see it, Catholics are
> ahead of mormons. Not that either has progressed
> much beyond the 1950s.
>
> Muslims? They're still usually stuck where many
> mormon polygamist groups dwell, in the dark ages.
>
> I am critical of religious fanticism and make no
> apologies for for not enabling racism, homophobia,
> and sexism.

I don't want the Mormon or Catholic priesthood, but I do think there is no reason to withhold it for women and I think eventually it will change.It probably won't be in the near futurte so I won't hold my breath.