I have a friend living in St. George right now. She has her graduate degree in nursing and holds down both a teaching position and a part time nursing job. Her husband is an RM (of course!) and is "thinking about" going to college. She's pregnant with their first child, and mentioned that they were underwater on their mortgage for the condo that she bought when she was single.

I'm single and very much not living in Mordor (although I spent 9 years there). Yesterday we were chatting online, and I thought our conversation was odd for a couple reasons.

1) She claimed that a lot of her friends had husbands that were staying at home to study or take care of kids while their educated wives supported them. I always thought that this was opposite of what TBMs' "ideal" marriage is supposed to be. Is this a new trend? Any thoughts?

2) Immediately following this she said that I should marry a rich man who was "ready-to-go" with life, and then immediately afterwards said that money wasn't everything. Huh? She knows I recently met a fellow who is a bit older and has his master's already (I'm working on mine).

3) She also said that I need to get "all of my fun" out of the way before I get married and have kids, but from my perspective, her definition of "fun" and mine differ wildly. Maybe I've been out of the loop, but outside of RM quilting get-togethers, what to TBMs consider "fun"?

I lived in Logan a few years ago and noticed this as well. A lot of RMs were staying at home with the children to study and going to school either part time or full time-- taking forever to get just bachelors degrees while their wives had jobs. Most of the ones I knew didn't have great jobs either, in fact, many of them put their own schooling on hold to become the primary bread winners.
From the conversations I had with them, they either slightly lamented over having kids too early (but never really saying that), or blatantly trying to guilt me and my wife into having children as well.
We interpreted that as them trying to get us to be as miserable as they were because I had just started a career and my wife was trying to get her degree and we were poor just as the two of us.

raptorjesus Wrote:
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> We interpreted that as them trying to get us to be
> as miserable as they were because I had just
> started a career and my wife was trying to get her
> degree and we were poor just as the two of us.

I feel like this is probably a huge part of it, but I also feel sad in that I can see my friend become a caricature of who she used to be, and just like all the other unhappy, prematurely-aged TBM women I see.

The twisted thing is that they do it to themselves and say they are happy while doing it.

I've never been impressed with her husband, so I hope for their baby's sake he gets his act together.

I think she's lucky in that she has her education and a decent job (I don't know what RNs and teachers make in Washington county but it's got to be above average). I know a lot of women I went to high school with who didn't go nearly as far as her.

I can see my friend
> become a caricature of who she used to be, and
> just like all the other unhappy, prematurely-aged
> TBM women I see.
>
> The twisted thing is that they do it to themselves
> and say they are happy while doing it.
>
> I've never been impressed with her husband, so I
> hope for their baby's sake he gets his act
> together.
>
> I think she's lucky in that she has her education
> and a decent job (I don't know what RNs and
> teachers make in Washington county but it's got to
> be above average). I know a lot of women I went
> to high school with who didn't go nearly as far as
> her.


Yes, I saw women who would be amazing professionals just give up and become medicore housewives, or stuck in dead end jobs because of lack of furthered education.

Don't get me wrong, if house wifery is your thing and you love it, and are good at it-- go right ahead-- same with those "lower level" jobs. I know some great housewives. But the world also needs women who love other professions too. And if you don't like staying at home, you won't like your life, and if you know you should be more educated. Same thing.

That's what usually leads to people saying things that don't make sense. The way their life is going doesn't make sense to them either. It somehow seems to be way off script.

There do seem to be a lot more male "slacker students" than there used to be, though there was always a fair number who fell into that category. I'm not quite sure what to make of it. I do expect the Suits at 47E S Temple are viewing the trend with alarm. They do not want to see patriarchy or tithing decrease.

I recently read an article on happiness (probably NYTimes about a month ago) that said people's overall happiness had two peaks, in early 20s and then again at 65, and staying surprisingly high beyond age 65, though slowly tapering off.

Or, as the aphorism goes, freedom is the kids are grown and the dog has died. Your friend feels painted into a corner, and the paint is not going to dry for 20 years or so.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
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> That's what usually leads to people saying things
> that don't make sense. The way their life is
> going doesn't make sense to them either. It
> somehow seems to be way off script.
>
> There do seem to be a lot more male "slacker
> students" than there used to be, though there was
> always a fair number who fell into that category.
> I'm not quite sure what to make of it. I do
> expect the Suits at 47E S Temple are viewing the
> trend with alarm. They do not want to see
> patriarchy or tithing decrease.

Yeah it was almost like she was trying to say, "My situation isn't all that bad, because all my friends' husbands aren't working either", but at the same time I know her life isn't the picture that was promised to her. But at the same time I think she knows that I don't/won't have that problem. I did ask her to wait at least six months before she got engaged; I think they knew each other six months before they got married.

She did do everything "right" but she's not going to be able to stay at home and raise her kids. I do actually think she will make a great mom and if she was able to stay at home with her kids and just be a mom I wouldn't slight her in any way.

Athena Wrote:
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> If this woman ever gets divorced or if her husband
> dies, she will be well-positioned to care for her
> children. She has that at least.
>
> Also, if her husband is a RM, his education was
> put on hold for 2 years. He may be struggling now
> to get back on track.

Yeah the few times I met her husband gave me the impression he's never had his life "on track" in terms of career or anything like that. When I met him I tried to steer him towards some sort of health care information systems type of degree, since he currently works in health care and said he was interested in computers. I also tried to encourage him to study business, as I think entrepreneurship is still a big thing in Southern Utah. I think the current "plan" is for him to get a degree in history and teach seminary, but he actually hasn't started school yet.

olive Wrote:
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>
> Fun? Probably means dating. I know I feel so sorry
> for my 19 year old SIL who just got married 2
> months ago. 19? And her dating life is over. She's
> made her eternal choice (her mindset, not mine).

Yeah, but after hearing all the dating horror stories on the old board, I don't think "dating" in the mormon sense would be much fun for me. It didn't sound like she enjoyed it much either. ::shrug::

I do lots of research into family structure, household income, and education level as part of my job. Women are now primary or joint breadwinners in 2/3 of American families, partly because they have been earning more college degrees for many years now. It's no secret that the earnings gulf has widened between those with college degrees and those without, but this recession has opened a new gulf - the numbers of jobs available in male-dominated and female-dominated industries.

Construction and manufacturing, mostly "male" industries, got hit hard in the recession. Women still make up the bulk of professionals in the "helping" professions - health care, education, social work,and nonprofit management. Because the need for those services has increased, women are now even more often the family breadwinners because they're the ones whose jobs are left. (I know a male RN who's never been unemployed: it's the profession, not the gender of the professional that matters.)

If this woman ever gets divorced or if her husband dies, she will be well-positioned to care for her children. She has that at least.

Also, if her husband is a RM, his education was put on hold for 2 years. He may be struggling now to get back on track.

Young adult life is really difficult these days. Of course she's stressed out and trying to convince herself that her life isn't really awful. A lot of non-Mormons are doing the same thing.

I guess that kind of explains my daughter and her husband. She has a job, he doesn't. He has been unemployed more than he has been employed. I can't relate to that at all. I guess the economy is a lot different than years ago, but it still bothers me that he has been unemployed so much. They are TBMs to the max and I'm sure receiving pressure from peers and TSCC to have kids.
At least they haven't brought children into the picture yet. I keep telling them there is no hurry, get better-positioned first, etc. Good grief they don't even have any medical insurance.
Maybe there is less pressure on TBMs now to pump out those kids. When I was their age there was huge pressure to have kids and it was a sin to put them off. Of course they also made a big deal about women staying home in those days too.

She sounds seriously unhappy. She has a good education, a career and has done everything "right" so why is she so upset that her RM husband doesn't rival Einstein in terms of smarts and is making 6 figures?

It's because she followed the blueprints and she is wondering if it was what was right. RM husband was supposed to come home, they would get married, she would graduate first (2 year headstart of course), she would work full time and he would go to school full time, taking as much as 6 or 7 classes at a time in order to graduate by 23 or 24 years old.

Yeah right. It doesn't happen. There is no blueprint. People need to follow their instincts. Just because he's everything the church says you need in a husband doesn't make him so.

Fun? Probably means dating. I know I feel so sorry for my 19 year old SIL who just got married 2 months ago. 19? And her dating life is over. She's made her eternal choice (her mindset, not mine).

Mormons don't give people the chance to grow and learn. It's like you're a kid and then you're an adult so shape up! There is a learning curve but for them it doesn't exist because all those mistakes that all of us make in growing and maturing are "sins" and must be punished.

BOTH prospective spouses have proven what kind of person they are (maybe date longer than 6 months?), have established professions, and can take care of themselves financially.

Plenty of people "plan" to get a degree or a job doing this or that, but don't have the stick-to-it-ivness to finish. I've seen this happen to people close to me, and it's very disillusioning to the spouse who had expectations and was let down. If they had waited until graduation, they would have seen whether their prospective mate was just dreaming about succeeding in life or was actually going to work toward it.

I guess what I'm saying is that people should marry the person who already has become the type of person (personally, professionally, financially, spiritually, physically or anything else) they want to be married to. Then they have a lot better chance of being happy with them. Instead of marrying someone with the idea that they'll be okay when they graduate, or quit drinking, or start brushing their teeth, or whatever.