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Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
What happened to Mosiah 2:41?
41 And moreover, I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and ahappy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are bblessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out cfaithful to the end they are received into dheaven, that thereby they may dwell with God in a state of never-ending happiness. O remember, remember that these things are true; for the Lord God hath spoken it.
These women must be trespassing the commandments, else why would they be unhappy?
Another example of the bogus promises of the Book and the Church at large. Dumb, dumb, dumb. I hope these women get out sooner than later.
41 And moreover, I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and ahappy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are bblessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out cfaithful to the end they are received into dheaven, that thereby they may dwell with God in a state of never-ending happiness. O remember, remember that these things are true; for the Lord God hath spoken it.
These women must be trespassing the commandments, else why would they be unhappy?
Another example of the bogus promises of the Book and the Church at large. Dumb, dumb, dumb. I hope these women get out sooner than later.
It's not the gospel that causes their depression, but rather their own personal misinterpretation of it.
Geez girls, how many times do the brethren have to tell you before you'll get it right...YOU'RE NOT DOING THE GOSPEL RIGHT UNTIL IT MAKES YOU HAPPY...
...so, back to the drawing board.
OK, from the top...Eve did us a favor by being a slutty oral-sex-with-fruit skank that obeyed the devil...<fade into various thinly veiled spins on the gross misogynism of the "gospel" for a few hours>...
...OK, NOW do you get it? See, you should feel GOOD about being a daughter of Eve with an eternal destiny determined by male gods eons ago, you don't even NEED to worry! It's all figured out. You only need to find the right eternally worthy man to marry in teh temple and have kids for (just don't mess that up by being fat or a tomboy for something...or overeducated and an overachiever).
But don't worry...if you can't find a worthy man, you only have to stay single and celibate until you die then you can marry some bachelor from Moses' time in the spirit world. If plan A fails you can always keep busy with plan B by being a helping hand to all those overworked moms who were blessed to have husbands and kids. You can pass the time by having a career...and go EIGHTY FUCKING YEARS without the sensation of passion and romance.
...oh I could go on.
Geez girls, how many times do the brethren have to tell you before you'll get it right...YOU'RE NOT DOING THE GOSPEL RIGHT UNTIL IT MAKES YOU HAPPY...
...so, back to the drawing board.
OK, from the top...Eve did us a favor by being a slutty oral-sex-with-fruit skank that obeyed the devil...<fade into various thinly veiled spins on the gross misogynism of the "gospel" for a few hours>...
...OK, NOW do you get it? See, you should feel GOOD about being a daughter of Eve with an eternal destiny determined by male gods eons ago, you don't even NEED to worry! It's all figured out. You only need to find the right eternally worthy man to marry in teh temple and have kids for (just don't mess that up by being fat or a tomboy for something...or overeducated and an overachiever).
But don't worry...if you can't find a worthy man, you only have to stay single and celibate until you die then you can marry some bachelor from Moses' time in the spirit world. If plan A fails you can always keep busy with plan B by being a helping hand to all those overworked moms who were blessed to have husbands and kids. You can pass the time by having a career...and go EIGHTY FUCKING YEARS without the sensation of passion and romance.
...oh I could go on.
I know...geez, not happy? You must not be living he gospel right!
Remember when they told us so many times that "other women will be drawn to the church as they see how happy and different the mormon women are." So, I guess on top of everything the lacking missionary efforts are also our fault. Need more women members? Then, get it right girls! lol
Remember when they told us so many times that "other women will be drawn to the church as they see how happy and different the mormon women are." So, I guess on top of everything the lacking missionary efforts are also our fault. Need more women members? Then, get it right girls! lol
I attended this presentation, I found it to be a "blame the victim" white wash of TSCC's upper eschelon - just too infuriating.
The upshot seemed to be that LDS women are depressed because of the hyper-competitive culture and because they have misunderstood the "be perfect in all things" gospel.
What have they misunderstood when constantly told that their worth is measured by how clean their home is, how presentable their children are, how obedient they are to the priesthood?
One notable comment Professor Doty made is that talking to the bishop is NOT counseling unless the bishop has the credentials and background to actually provide mental health counseling.
The upshot seemed to be that LDS women are depressed because of the hyper-competitive culture and because they have misunderstood the "be perfect in all things" gospel.
What have they misunderstood when constantly told that their worth is measured by how clean their home is, how presentable their children are, how obedient they are to the priesthood?
One notable comment Professor Doty made is that talking to the bishop is NOT counseling unless the bishop has the credentials and background to actually provide mental health counseling.
Lynette said church leaders are helping to offer perspective.
"Especially recently, (church leaders) say, 'Give yourself a break. You don't have to be supermom. It's OK,'" she said.
WHEN have leaders of TSCC said anything like that??
"Especially recently, (church leaders) say, 'Give yourself a break. You don't have to be supermom. It's OK,'" she said.
WHEN have leaders of TSCC said anything like that??
Exactly! Oh sure, you deserve a break, but only after you go visiting teaching, go to the temple,index a thousand names, have personal and family scripture study, have FHE, have family prayer, magnify your calling, save for your senior mission, get all your food storage, pay a full tithe, have all the children your body can manage, clean the church, go to all your meetings...
I'm getting depressed just thinking about it. Maybe being supermom isn't required, but being super Mormon is always required, and they're not the same thing.
I'm getting depressed just thinking about it. Maybe being supermom isn't required, but being super Mormon is always required, and they're not the same thing.
More coverage on this topic:
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=23928402&nid=148&title=study-toxic-perfectionism-major-part-of-lds-womens-depression&fm=home_page&s_cid=featured-4
Comments are interesting.
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=23928402&nid=148&title=study-toxic-perfectionism-major-part-of-lds-womens-depression&fm=home_page&s_cid=featured-4
Comments are interesting.
LDS women may not have to be supermoms, but they do have to be moms, over and over. The church keeps reminding women of those spirit children waiting to be born. And they fawn over the largest families.
How can we blame women for taking them at their word?
I'm reminded of the McLays (who gave those incredible and devastating interviews). They had 4 children age 4 and under!
Add to this the financial challenges of supporting a large family - on one income (the preferred LDS model).
No wonder Mormon women are losing their minds.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2013 09:02PM by ellenl.
How can we blame women for taking them at their word?
I'm reminded of the McLays (who gave those incredible and devastating interviews). They had 4 children age 4 and under!
Add to this the financial challenges of supporting a large family - on one income (the preferred LDS model).
No wonder Mormon women are losing their minds.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2013 09:02PM by ellenl.
I’d also like to add, Mormon women aren’t depressed because they are misinterpreting the church’s message.
They are interpreting it accurately, and it is destroying them.
They are interpreting it accurately, and it is destroying them.
Even the comments on these two different articles can lead to depression. The last line of the DN article says, "Doty said the biggest obstacle in dealing with depression is an unwillingness to openly talk about it.
"We need to talk about it," she said. "We need to bring it out of the shadows."
Right Doty--even the commenters are hurling scriptural grenades--one said, "these women just need to read their scriptures more." Others say, "these women don't understand the gospel"--From the outside looking in--this is a very sick society!(And anyone who has read "Sacred Loneliness" knows that this isn't just a modern day problem!)
"We need to talk about it," she said. "We need to bring it out of the shadows."
Right Doty--even the commenters are hurling scriptural grenades--one said, "these women just need to read their scriptures more." Others say, "these women don't understand the gospel"--From the outside looking in--this is a very sick society!(And anyone who has read "Sacred Loneliness" knows that this isn't just a modern day problem!)
I attended this presentation a year ago at UVU. It brought back so many bad memories for me. I am definitely happier now that I'm no longer on the perfection hamster treadmill.
Several years ago I was suffering from post-partum depression. I went to a wonderful naturpathic doctor in Salt Lake. He was worth the drive from Utah County. He was very angry when he talked about Utah County women and depression. He said the Church Presidency "damn well knew" about the problem and were supposedly watching it--but they really weren't doing a damn thing about it. Yup, just read your scriptures, be sweet, do your church job ..
Oh gods, I'm glad I'm out of that.
Several years ago I was suffering from post-partum depression. I went to a wonderful naturpathic doctor in Salt Lake. He was worth the drive from Utah County. He was very angry when he talked about Utah County women and depression. He said the Church Presidency "damn well knew" about the problem and were supposedly watching it--but they really weren't doing a damn thing about it. Yup, just read your scriptures, be sweet, do your church job ..
Oh gods, I'm glad I'm out of that.
I agree whole-heartedly with all your comments. There is a very toxic environment in the LDS culture that really takes a toll on women.
I think of Hinckley's message that was posted on my fridge for years, "try a little harder to do a little more". Every time I went to the fridge I got reminded that no matter what I was doing, it wasn't quite good enough.
It isn't the women's fault. And this abusive culture makes women MEAN! Mormon women are mean and competitive.
TOXIC indeed!
I think of Hinckley's message that was posted on my fridge for years, "try a little harder to do a little more". Every time I went to the fridge I got reminded that no matter what I was doing, it wasn't quite good enough.
It isn't the women's fault. And this abusive culture makes women MEAN! Mormon women are mean and competitive.
TOXIC indeed!
why would you be depressed when you can be like this..
am I worthy today?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j12xbZiyoYY
am I worthy today?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j12xbZiyoYY
This was what broke the camel's back for me in the late 80s. I was a female RM, questioning since mid mission. I had a calling to teach the spiritual living RS lessons in my ward. In the meantime, many women confided their sadness and distress to me. They blamed themselves. I had a lesson coming up on solving emotional problems the lard's way, and one subtopic was that counseling should be avoided because it fosters dependency. I could not teach that lesson, so I made up my own. After my little chat with the bish, I never went back!
These poor women. They are walking uteri to the morg!
These poor women. They are walking uteri to the morg!
How bout this precious gem from the comments section? (Would it be possible to be more deluded and lacking in self-awareness than this poster?):
"I've been in the Church all my life and suffer from mild depression. It's nonsense that Church teachings on perfection lead to depression. It's the misinterpretation of Church teachings that might contribute to depression. I have never felt the need to be perfect. I'm assuming that these 20 active LDS women don't know Church doctrine. If they would study the scriptures it would give them some spiritual therapy and help lessen their depression."
And the brainwashing continues.....
"I've been in the Church all my life and suffer from mild depression. It's nonsense that Church teachings on perfection lead to depression. It's the misinterpretation of Church teachings that might contribute to depression. I have never felt the need to be perfect. I'm assuming that these 20 active LDS women don't know Church doctrine. If they would study the scriptures it would give them some spiritual therapy and help lessen their depression."
And the brainwashing continues.....
The older I get, the more I realize just how conditional the mormon god is. Mormon love isn't about being, it's about doing. What you feel inside doesn't matter.
There are all sorts of mixed messages with this, but it all adds up to, nothing you do is good enough. Even if everything you do is perfect, you're failing because you're trying to be perfect.
I think the church needs to get out of the mental health business...
There are all sorts of mixed messages with this, but it all adds up to, nothing you do is good enough. Even if everything you do is perfect, you're failing because you're trying to be perfect.
I think the church needs to get out of the mental health business...
See also, on this topic, the article by Kent Ponder, Ph.D., "Mormon Women, Prozac, and Therapy" at http://packham.n4m.org/prozac.htm
I am sure there are a lot of TBM doctors that think 'depression' in TBM women is all a bunch of 'hogwash.' At least that is what my mother's doctor (a member of TSCC) told me when I called him about my mother's declining mental status. In retrospect, I could see in Mom all the classic signs of depression. The good doctor gave me the old burning of the bosom and Mom needing to 'seek the gospel.'
My mother died when I was 22 (age 44). She just waisted away. She did not eat. She was not anorexic (in the classic sense as she did not think she was 'fat'); she just gave up on life and was tired of living. My father was illiterate, but he never beat her, in fact, I never, ever heard any type of arguments/fights in the house.
My mother died when I was 22 (age 44). She just waisted away. She did not eat. She was not anorexic (in the classic sense as she did not think she was 'fat'); she just gave up on life and was tired of living. My father was illiterate, but he never beat her, in fact, I never, ever heard any type of arguments/fights in the house.
I just posted the following on the post, "Mormon women aren't off the hook in my opinion". --But my post seems to fit so well here, also, that I have to repeat it:
"Not off the hook?
I have (at least that I know of) two LDS close relatives in their 30-40's who have (well-into their marriages) had breast implants!
What kind of pressure on them does this indicate?
To please their husbands (I don't think so), or to make themselves more "perfect" (LDS style)?
Cosmetic surgery is alive and well in Utah."
---
If this doesn't reflect a depression reg. one's self image, then what does? (Thanks for rereading it, if you already caught it in my first post.)
"Not off the hook?
I have (at least that I know of) two LDS close relatives in their 30-40's who have (well-into their marriages) had breast implants!
What kind of pressure on them does this indicate?
To please their husbands (I don't think so), or to make themselves more "perfect" (LDS style)?
Cosmetic surgery is alive and well in Utah."
---
If this doesn't reflect a depression reg. one's self image, then what does? (Thanks for rereading it, if you already caught it in my first post.)
Almost every TBM Utah woman I know has had plastic surgery/Botox. Now it's just the norm.
What bothers me about this article is the indicatation it is the culture and misunderstanding that cause this.
I disagree.
The reason that it is in the culture is because it runs deeper in the doctrine.
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Spencer Kimball's "The Miracle of Forgiveness" is exhibit A. Mormonism essentially denies the power of the atonement in cleansing sin. You essentially have to pay for you sins in addition to Christ.
----
At the core is "Are you good enough to get the the Celestial Kingdom?" Accepting Christ isn't enough - you also have to be valiant enough. How valiant? No one ones but if you aren't quite good enough there goes eternity. If even if you are good enough what about your loved ones? Certainly you will fail to be a good enough Mom & spouse to save all of your children & husband & grandchildren. If you had just done a little more, been a little more faithful with scriptures or FHE, maybe your children wouldn't have gone astray.
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D&C 29:3 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that at this time your sins are forgiven you, therefore ye receive these things; but remember to sin no more, lest perils shall come upon you
D&C 82:7 And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.
This creates a cycle of hopelessness. This means if you aren't perfect repentance is meaningless. If you repent for yelling at your kids but then yell at them again, all your repenting was meaningless. Not only did you fail by yelling at them today - all your previous sins are back with a vengeance.
Using the language of addiction that means that sobriety has no meaning and no value. If if are an alcoholic and are clean for 20 years and slip up those 20 years have no meaning. All your past failures and sins are back - you start of from square one. Until eventually you just feel like a useless depressed failure.
D&C 132: 46 And verily, verily, I say unto you, that whatsoever you seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever you bind on earth, in my name and by my word, saith the Lord, it shall be eternally bound in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you remit on earth shall be remitted eternally in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you retain on earth shall be retained in heaven.
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The problem runs much deeper than the culture.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2013 03:04PM by bc.
I disagree.
The reason that it is in the culture is because it runs deeper in the doctrine.
-------------
Spencer Kimball's "The Miracle of Forgiveness" is exhibit A. Mormonism essentially denies the power of the atonement in cleansing sin. You essentially have to pay for you sins in addition to Christ.
----
At the core is "Are you good enough to get the the Celestial Kingdom?" Accepting Christ isn't enough - you also have to be valiant enough. How valiant? No one ones but if you aren't quite good enough there goes eternity. If even if you are good enough what about your loved ones? Certainly you will fail to be a good enough Mom & spouse to save all of your children & husband & grandchildren. If you had just done a little more, been a little more faithful with scriptures or FHE, maybe your children wouldn't have gone astray.
-----
D&C 29:3 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that at this time your sins are forgiven you, therefore ye receive these things; but remember to sin no more, lest perils shall come upon you
D&C 82:7 And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.
This creates a cycle of hopelessness. This means if you aren't perfect repentance is meaningless. If you repent for yelling at your kids but then yell at them again, all your repenting was meaningless. Not only did you fail by yelling at them today - all your previous sins are back with a vengeance.
Using the language of addiction that means that sobriety has no meaning and no value. If if are an alcoholic and are clean for 20 years and slip up those 20 years have no meaning. All your past failures and sins are back - you start of from square one. Until eventually you just feel like a useless depressed failure.
D&C 132: 46 And verily, verily, I say unto you, that whatsoever you seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever you bind on earth, in my name and by my word, saith the Lord, it shall be eternally bound in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you remit on earth shall be remitted eternally in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you retain on earth shall be retained in heaven.
----------
The problem runs much deeper than the culture.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2013 03:04PM by bc.