Does it surprise others, as it does me, that Dehlin is on his way to being awarded an obviously imaginary PhD?

Religious "scrupulosity"--a form of OCD? Huh?

John Dehlin doesn't have the *faintest* idea WTF OCD even is, never mind some imaginary "disorder" that he calls "scrupulosity."

From start to finish, this asshole is a fraud.

I wish people here would stop being so kind and deferential to an obvious charlatan and narcissist.

Has it ever occurred to anyone here that Dehlin could well have been--and probably is--a Mormon plant, specifically placed by the "Church" to deal a devastating blow to ex-Mormons and Mormons leaning that way?

This is _The Empire Strikes Back_, all over again.

Steve

Scrupulosity as a concept didn't originate with Dehlin. It's been recognised for years (decades) as a, let's say, 'disorder' or as problematic behaviour among Catholics, for one. Say what you will about Dehlin, but scrupulosity is most likely an aspect of OCD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrupulosity
"Scrupulosity is a psychological disorder characterized by pathological guilt about moral or religious issues. It is personally distressing, objectively dysfunctional, and often accompanied by significant impairment in social functioning.[1] It is typically conceptualized as a moral or religious form of obsessive–compulsive disorder (OCD),[2] although this categorization is empirically disputable.[1]"

There's a new breed over there on that forum. They can really see him for the fraud he is. Their comments indicate the pulse of just how frustrated many members are. It seems that we are on the cusp of the biggest disaffection of members yet. Thanks John and your Morg cronies for opening the eyes of many more future ExMos.

This supposed super-clever plan by the Mormon Church and John Dehlin only works if you pay attention to it, and your attention is voluntary. There comes a point in dealing with Mormonism at which the pain is mostly self-inflicted.

Scrupulosity is an expression of OCD. For other people OCD shows up as compulsive hand-washing or a need to count or germ-phobia or or or whatever.

robertb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Scrupulosity is an expression of OCD. For other
> people OCD shows up as compulsive hand-washing or
> a need to count or germ-phobia or or or whatever.

Thanks for the confirmation, Robert. I remember seeing a pamphlet in the literature rack in the Catholic parish I attended briefly for a 12-step programme/self-help group for Scrupulosity. Catholics are masters of it, but I can see how Mormons could find it a problem too.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2013 06:55AM by Lorraine aka síóg.

robertb wrote: "This supposed super-clever plan by the Mormon Church and John Dehlin only works if you pay attention to it, and your attention is voluntary."

If that general concept is true, Robert, couldn't the same be said for most any reason a patient/client visits a therapist/mental health counselor? A concern that brings them to therapy only impacts them if they pay attention to it, and their attention to it is voluntary, right?

Tone is easily misinterpreted in online communication, so I'm not sure how to convey this and have it "sound" in writing like it does in my head. Specifically, I hope it doesn't seem snarky or judgmental about you, Robert. I appreciate the gentle advice you give to people here who are hurting.

It does seem like you are a bit invested in defending John. I don't have a dog in this fight because John didn't help me leave Mormonism in any way. I exited long before John ever showed up to present himself as the Savior to those experiencing a faith crisis, but I never understood the appeal of what John was presenting. He seemed disingenuous, so I did what I always do when I don't understand something, I observed. The more I observed, the more something seemed not quite right, so I stopped paying attention. I didn't care enough to try to solve the puzzle of what seemed off.

I don't know if John was a "plant" or if he was useful to TSCC during Willard Mitt's time in the spotlight, but the timing of his return to TSCC is curious. John can do what he wants. It's his life, but he held himself out as a pied-piper for those who were hurting. To tell those who feel like he sold out or played them (or whatever they feel) that they should "turn it off like a light switch" is not particularly helpful, imo.

John wanted the spotlight. He was revered. He climbed up on the pedestal he helped others build for him. Now he has the spotlight for a different reason. He needs to suck it up and deal with it.

I liken it to actors like Meryl Streep or Daniel Day Lewis who act because they love it or because they can't not act. They don't court the tabloids or the spotlight in the way that certain fame-hound, reality TV "stars" do. They attract different kinds of attention. John fancied himself Daniel Day Lewis, but he's really Spencer Pratt. He WANTED the attention. He's got it. I am intrigued that people are invested in rescuing him from what he created for himself.

Especially after he threw some of his supporters under the bus with unsubstantiated accusations of wife swapping and partaking of illegal substances. That is not noble. It's chicken$H!t. It also is a convenient smokescreen so the members and leaders will direct the negative attention at those bitter, offended, wanting-to-sin ExMo's instead of requiring John to own HIS actions.

I agree with most everything you said. There are people that will do anything for attention. If it's starring in an epic movie playing a great role or dancing at the local mall with a Fruitbasket on their head. It really doesn't matter as long as they're the center of attention. Generally, I'm glad there are people like that around. It's entertaining. But people who do things out of a deep love are much more interesting to me.

In order for Dehlin to really have the love of Mormons, he had to throw ex Mormons under the bus. He did. As someone else pointed out, many disbelievers go back to church because it's easier. But they usually do it quietly. Because Dehlin made himself a public figure, he had to do it publicly. And the only way he could be credible, was to provide a justification. His justification seemed to be that although it may not all be true, it's as good as were better than any other alternative. Even went so far as to say that science is a mess. Since everything is a mess, being a Mormon is the best alternative.

Intellectually, he knows this is bogus. So he claims he's drawing all of this from his emotional spiritual side. It's all just rationalization.

In the end, however, It's a lose for the Mormon church. Once they begin to accept disbelievers, it begins to turn into a club. You just can't have a grip on people when it's nothing more than a club. The exit door just got a little bit wider in my opinion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2013 09:51AM by thingsithink.

Surrender Dorothy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I don't know if John was a "plant" or if he was
> useful to TSCC during Willard Mitt's time in the
> spotlight, but the timing of his return to TSCC is
> curious. John can do what he wants. It's his life,
> but he held himself out as a pied-piper for those
> who were hurting. To tell those who feel like he
> sold out or played them (or whatever they feel)
> that they should "turn it off like a light switch"
> is not particularly helpful, imo.
>

Like you, I exited a long time before Dehlin came on the scene. I'm not interested in defending him. I do realize people cannot turn off their feelings like a light switch and is not helpful to tell them to do that. At the same time, it pays to pay attention to how we think about things. What triggers my response is the conspiratorial bit of Gay Philosopher's comments because they make the Mormon Church more powerful in our heads. It's a peeve of mine. It's enough to deal with what the church actually does; we don't need to create things to make it even harder for us to deal with. Also, there is some place between turning it off like a light switch and going uncritically with whatever gets thrown out here.

I appreciate your comment. I'll give it some more thought.

Spencer Pratt made me laugh out loud for real. Thanks! Needed a laugh today.

robertb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This supposed super-clever plan by the Mormon
> Church and John Dehlin only works if you pay
> attention to it, and your attention is voluntary.
> There comes a point in dealing with Mormonism at
> which the pain is mostly self-inflicted.
>
YES. Comment of the month! Thank you, robertb!

I'm always suspicious of people studying psychology who seem messed up themselves. I doubt he was a plant, though. More like he set out to make a small change in this idiotic organization that he couldn't let go of. Then he got a following, and his ego took over, and he saw a way to finally be somebody in the idiotic organization ... and, bonus, to help support the oversized family it had encouraged him to have.

And what's this I read somewhere about him trying to fix teh gay? That really makes me go, "Hmmm."

He may have liked the attention and still be an attention hound -but ultimately it's for him about money in one way, shape or form.

He figures living in Utah, he can have a good career as a church therapist. He has a bunch of clients there. The church even paid for his education. He and his brother are church stooges. No different, really, than FARMS and FAIR. He's just a New Order Stooge.

I have ocd and as a young adult on my own was very afraid of accidently screwing up the word of wisdom. I didn't know i had ocd, i only thot i had very 'sinful' thots and didn't know why i had them. I didn't want to smoke or drink. I would have dreams that i 'finally' took that first cigarette and wake up totally feeling guilty. As an adult it morphed into a fear of coffee stains. I couldn't touch a coffee stain for fear that if i then put my finger in my mouth i would have 'drank' the coffee and thus would have to repent. I never got as far as going to the bishop and confessing stuff as i was too afraid to do that. i sspent years of my life feeling guilty for thots i didn't even want to have. AS a university student i was afraid of being caught accidently cheating, so i made sure i sat where i could look up from the exam and only see the walls of the classroom. Ocd is not a fun illness to have and it's a lot worse than people make it seem with their 'oh, i'm sooo ocd' because they are particular about something. That, btw is not ocd. With ocd you are doing/ thinking things you don't want to do and you know that what you're doing doesn't make sense but the urge to do the ritual is soooo strong you can't stop yourself.

There is help out there for those who have this illness. You don't have to live in fear your whole life. See your doctor.

It royally pisses me off when people say "that's my OCD" or "I'm so OCD" to explain things they're just particular about. They really don't get it. I actually had a counselor say that to me recently about how she likes to keep her house-- I think she was trying to relate to me. That was the last appointment I had with her.

I know from years of personal experience that Mormonism and Mormon culture are absolute minefields for a person with OCD. Mormonism doesn't cause it, but it teaches all kinds of things that trigger, reinforce, and worsen it, and it doesn't teach ANYTHING unique that makes it better.

I don't give the church nearly that much credit.

I am baffled by how many people find fault with Mr. Dehlin. Hate even.

To what end? Does it feel better and make a person feel smarter to criticize others? It can't possibly bring anyone any peace of mind to rip someone apart.
(I don't see the value in any of that, of course.)

Instead, I would like to see a non-judgmental acceptance and respect for other people's religious choices. (Silly me!) I keep reading about how former Mormons are non-judmental, but I see just the opposite in so many comments.)

Mr. Dehlin apparently gave his church a thorough study and came up accepting the teachings, warts and all.
Which, as I have observed, is pretty much what everyone else does on this planet. The religions of the world are Faith Based, not fact based anyhow. Faith is not about proof. I think it's wise to remember those principles of how religion works in people's lives.


Why can't we rejoice in the choices of others as they are the ones in charge of their lives, not us?

Am I the only one that is respectful of Mr. Dehlin's willingness to research his belief system,share it with others and determine it was what he wanted in his life regardless of any negativity he found?

I'm happy for Mr. Dehlin and his family. He has chosen what he thinks is best for him and his family and how he wants to live his life.

Klu klux klan

Dehlin a "Church plant"? That's crazy. He hated the Church when he started on his path that led to NOM. He was angry and he wanted EVERYONE to know it. He wanted EVERYONE to hurt and be angry too.

John has a huge ego. He wants, needs and craves to be the center of attention. When he got the attention he desired from the GA's, it was the stroking he lives for.

So what if he went back to the Church. He's not a "true believer". Do you feel "betrayed" by him? Then you have AGAIN misplaced your devotions onto someone you shouldn't have.

Many of y'all are missing the point.

I don't feel betrayed, but insulted. I had hopes that he would help TBMs at least dispel myths about why we leave, and educate them on valid concerns about the church.

So he gained a large audience.

Then, while on the podium, he basically reinforced all of the myths.

Most of the interview was alluding to LDS perspective equals an angel on one shoulder, and all other perspectives as the devil. He made claims of drugs and debauchery in the exmo community. Stated that people can make it work despite all of the church historical issues, lies, misogyny, racism, homophobia, money issues, etc...that anyone who is bothered by these is just being too intellectual.

There were 2 marked points in the interview where he "admonishes" listeners.

He used the platform to cast the disaffected and exmos in a negative light...as people too consumed with intellectualism. Who haven't done the emotional and spiritual work. That any religion or community is full of fault so Mormonism is no worse than anything else.

When given a mic, don't marginalize the very people you claimed you would help be a voice for in helping the ignorant understand.

I think that's a good summary of the problem.

I think that in the abstract, few would deeply care about John Dehlin's personal religious choices. There are many on this board who are still active or on the rolls of the LDS church for one reason or another.

But when you purport to be sympathetic and understanding of the reasons why people leave the church on the one hand, and then badmouth and/or disrespect those very same people behind their backs, there will be a justifiable feeling of betrayal.

The blind leading the deaf.

Or the bland leading the bland.

I feel so sorry for gay members. First, they have to deal with the church and now John Dehlin wants a whack at helping them.

Wow, ragingphoenix, that was a good post. I have read a lot about Dehlin over the years, and I thought I was thoroughly bored of the topic, but you brought something fresh and made me think.

I had not thought of it quite that way. That perspective does make some anger legitimate. He can make whatever choices about his own life he wants, as far as I am concerned, but it is another thing to seduce people into opening up to you with their deepest experiences and feelings because you convince them you will not judge -- and then -- judging them. I have had the impression Dehlin is trying to build a career somehow out of all this, but I wonder if that will ultimately backfire for him. His ethics as a therapist are already surrounded by questions -- and he has hardly launched his practice.

There is a lot on this thread to respond to. Gay Philosopher, I've thought it was at least possible Dehlin was a plant. I won't go likely, but possible. In the 60s, everyone thought it was silly when the Black Power movement and the anti-war movement complained of government infiltrators. Then gradually it was documented that exactly that had happened. It hadn't been just drug induced paranoia after all. As the LDS Church seems to be going through its own delayed 60s, I don't think it is out of the question that they have tried to infiltrate the exodus out of the church. Remember, Mormons are very influential in the CIA and FBI, and many members work for those institutions. All that aside, I have no idea it they have tried and if Dehlin is part of it. I speak only of what is possible.

I didn't think robertb sounded defensive, but then as the poster said, it is so hard to read tone on the Net.

I used to be angry about Dehlin -- because so many postMormons acted as though they knew his heart and knew he would leave the church. I don't think we know anyone's heart -- sometimes not even our own -- and I thought people should take Dehlin at face value -- he kept saying he was a still Mormon, so as far as I was concerned, he was.

Now everyone is all up in arms, I am so over it. I decided a long time ago I never expected him to leave.

Maybe John suffers from Scrupulosity and that's why he's interested in studying it. If so, it'd be interesting to know if he thinks it's a valid diagnosis or if he tries to discount it, like many Mormons who pooh-pooh mental health disorders.

Most of all, to see if he'll try the treatment which is exposure to the very sins he's afraid of! Wouldn't that be a cool discussion with a Bishop:

"I have scrupulosity disorder - fear of sins. To treat it, I need to hang out in bars and with prostitutes - so I can overcome it."

Good analysis, Jane. If Joe Smith is the ultimate "plant", then Dehlin can surely be a "plant". Whether it was his choice alone, or arranged with leadership, he can be a "bell wether", a goat leading the sheeple back into the fold.

DSM 5 is in the making, maybe they can put this in. And put religion back in too, as the delusion it really is.

As fas as Dehlin goes, I think the main point is that he wants to be somebody. In Utah, the only way to do that for average people is to be a Mormon and sell crap to other Mormons.

When I left the church, I went from being a Highpriest and President to being a nobody.

I quickly adjusted to being a nobody - life is so much easier if you don't have to prepare the entire world for the second coming of Jesus H. Christ in Missouri, even Jackson County - but from what I can tell about Mr. Dehlin from listening to some of his podcasts, he is a namedropping, groupie-esque attenion whore so being a nobody may not be a reality he can face up to.

rt Wrote:
In Utah, the only
> way to do that for average people is to be a
> Mormon and sell crap to other Mormons.


So true!

what school is offering this though? BY(ew?)