My friend ran into the missionaries hanging around the library on campus. She knows I am ex-mo and have been waiting for them to come to my door, so when they approached her, she was willing to listen. They are supposed to call her and meet up this weekend, and she asked if she could invite another friend (me). Anyone have any questions I should ask to stump the poor fools? I'm really looking forward to this.

They are easy to stump as they don't know much nor are they instructed to get into much more than their formulated lesson material.
But, there are dozens of questions about things an Investigator really needs to know, in my opinion.

They know very little about Joseph Smith Jr except what they are told to teach. So, generally they don't know about his many wives. They are restricted from talking about the temple, of course. They don't know about the Kinderhook Plates, most likely, either and how that hoax fooled JS. And dozens of other things, like polygamy, and Mt. Meadows Massacre, etc.

An investigator needs to know what is going to be required of them, totally: callings, expectations, interviews, as well as temple preparation and what they don't tell you, as well as WofW and tithing, etc. and what kind of commitment it is.

They need to know about D&C 132 and the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage is plurality of wives which is the temple marriage covenant.

Have some links ready for your friend to do for homework when the missionaries leave. This one is very comprehensive.
http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm

My friend really isn't an investigator. We're both in the same atheist group, and we're only doing this to mess with the missionaries and show them how much they DON'T know.

fallenangelblue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My friend really isn't an investigator. We're
> both in the same atheist group, and we're only
> doing this to mess with the missionaries and show
> them how much they DON'T know.

Eventually yes. First I want to open up their eyes a little bit, if that's even possible.

Polygamy is the thing that mormons are most famous for. They probably won't know the specific details, like the ages of wives, the number of them, the dates married, etc, but they'll certainly know that Brigham Young, at least, has lots of wives.

It mentions it in the D&C. It's covered in seminary and institute. Polygamy has been mentioned in church manuals, in Ensigns, in General Conferences.

Fair enough, they might not know about the Mountain Meadows Massacre, Book of Abraham, etc, but they will most definitely know about polygamy.

Infact, polygamy is often the ONLY think a person knows about mormonism, so it'd be ridiculous to think that mormons themselves wouldn't know about it.

Nona Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...Infact, polygamy is often the ONLY think a person
> knows about mormonism, so it'd be ridiculous to
> think that mormons themselves wouldn't know about
> it.


Not quite accurate. I had a self-righteous Mo berate me on youtube for not "talking to a real Mormon" so that I know that polygamy is "illegal" and not practiced by her church, and that they're really "nice people". She must have been 12 or something so of course I had to educate her silly head and told her to study her church's polygamous history "the one they don't teach you at seminary".

It would be fun to string them along for a few sessions, pretend to read the BOM. I then when you "pray" to see if it is true. Tell them you aren't getting any warm fuzzies. Keep going with this and see how long they stay around. The problem with this is that some people might get suckered. It is hard to pretend to be someone else and not have it affect you.

..a family with 5 little girls. We got to the point of the 3rd discussion, and we began to pray with him and his wife, on our knees, and fervently. Course we were trained to psych ourselves out with the warm fuzzies. We took turns going around the room, one by one, me, my comp., the father, the mother, the oldest daugher even, the ward mission leader - after each prayer we would look at the father and say, "well do you now feel the spirit, that warm feeling...its so strong, don't feel it?"

He would say, "nope, don't feel a thing" We'd say, "okay, let's pray harder." Each time, "sorry nope nothing mate." This went on for a couple of weeks.

It really made an impact on me.

Sorry, I think she should be honest and say she's not interested in converting to Mormonism and cancel the appointment.

My bias is based on my own deconversion having to come from within. Missionaries are "anti-ed" all the time and they have built-in rejection mechanisms, like all humans when your sacred paradigm is challenged. It's not the power of Mormon information that holds them, it's the power of sociology and psychology that has evolved for thousands of years that holds them. We can deny bald-faced evidence, especially if you believe there's a devil cooking it.

When you're messin' with a Mormon, you're not just messin' with the institution, you're messin' with the personal baggage of the TBM. Could be over your head. Don't play mind-games.

One reason I love this board is that it is well-marked. Any TBM who comes here has been forewarned. They have no right to say we shouldn't say in our own "house", hey, the sign said "exmormon". Likewise, you owe it to these young men, if you let them come back, to inform them that 1)your friend is only interested in their point of view and not conversion, and 2) you're an exmormon and intend to refute their information. That way you've done your due as a host to guests and they make the choice. Otherwise, if you bait them or mislead them, you're being dishonest. I say don't.

But even from an outcome-based rationale, I think TBMs are influenced more by tolerance anyway. I think everyone is. Then the intolerance of the "gospel" simply makes less and less sense to a TBM until they reach a personal WTF threshold and take a peek behind the curtain on their own. I think the best thing you can do to contribute to the awakening is to raise valid and sound arguments on your own turf and advertize with only up-front "signs".

We need a "like" button on this forum...LOL.

I don't like that done to me, so I'm not going to do it to someone else. Just doesn't set well with me.
I don't like being tricked, punked, teased, either.

I agree. It is wrong to "mess with the missionaries."

"If I could prove to you incontrovertibly that the church is not true, would you want to know?"

If you go to www.lds.org and enter "A Treasured Testament" in the Search field, the result will be an article written by Mormon Apostle Russell Nelson in the July 1993 Ensign. In Nelson's article (print it and take it to your mtg. w/ the mishies) is the following description of how JS 'translated' the 'true' BoM:

"Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.”

Ask the missionaries if they were taught in Sunday School, Primary, Young Men's, Sacrament Meetings, Regional and General Conferences, and in the MTC that Joseph Smith 'translated' the Book of Mormon using a 'magical' rock - a 'seer stone' - and his hat, as described in Nelson's article, to 'translate' the BoM. Their answer should be "No." Ask them if the LDS Church has instructed them to teach investigators about this very unusual method of 'translation'. Their reply should again be no.

Point out that Elder Nelson called this method of very unorthodox method of 'translation' as "miraculous". Ask the mishies: "Why doesn't the LDS Church teach its members and potential converts about this "miraculous method of translation"? (quoting Nelson in his article).

Point out that in 2003, the episode of the popular cartoon South Park, "All About Mormons" (it's online), showed Joseph Smith with his face buried in his hat 'translating' the BoM. The church had criticized South Park's makers for doing this, but it was only a correct depiction of the way the BoM was 'translated', according to the text in Elder Nelson's article in the Ensign.

Ask the missionaries if they have a testimony that JS used his hat and a 'seer stone' which emitted - in the darkness of Joseph's hat - "A piece of something resembling parchment" on which the BoM characters appeared. If they say no, ask them why not. Ask them: "If it's in the church's Ensign Magazine, then what Elder Nelson included in his article is 'true', right?"

Also, ask them: "Elder Nelson wrote that 'One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct.' So since the 'seer' stone was displaying the ancient BoM characters, one by one, and each corresponding character, in a "miraculous" manner, according to Elder Nelson, a) why were the gold plates even needed? (clearly, JS' stone and hat sufficed), and b) why did the LDS Church make thousands of changes to the BoM, as explained in the December 1983 Ensign (the article is "Understanding Textual Changes in the Book of Mormon") as follows:

"literally thousands of corrections have been made in the book"

"there have been 891 changes of which to who, 177 changes of exceeding to exceedingly. Many changes involve a change in number or tense of verbs. Was was changed to were 162 times, is to are 74 times, and done to did 10 times."

"A few other changes involving meaning appear to be more significant. In 2 Nephi 30:6 [2 Ne. 30:6], white appeared in the 1830 and 1837 editions. Joseph changed this word to pure in the 1840 edition."

"In Mosiah 21:28 and Ether 4:1, the first edition had “Benjamin” where the name of Mosiah now appears."

"Over the years, a few hundred deletions have also been made, primarily to improve the book grammatically. The most commonly eliminated have been the words that (188 times), the (48 times), it came to pass (46 times), a and and (40 times), and had (29 times)."

"Additions have been less numerous, probably less than one hundred. For example, of was added 12 times, and, is, and the 7 times."

So, did the 'magical' 'seer' stone make mistakes? If the mistake was Joseph's or his scribe's, why did the "miraculous" 'seer' stone continue to emit ancient characters and their English counterpart when the Lord, knowing (because he's omniscient, according to LDS doctrine), not cause the stone to stop producing "A piece of something resembling parchment" so that the correct text would be displayed, called out by Joseph Smith, and written down by his scribe?

Given that the LDS Church has admitted in its own magazine for Latter-day Saints that thousands of changes of the BoM have been made, how could Joseph Smith correctly declare that it is "the most correct of any book on earth"?

If you want tons of more 'faith-disrupting' facts about Mormonism to share with the mishies, including ones from official LDS info. sources, search for posts with links done by me on the old www.exmormon.org bulletin board.

Good luck, and have fun!

who has since rescinded his initial ideas...

Don't mess with them...they have enough problems...I hate it when it happens to me...tell them up front or cancel...it would be the kind thing to do...even though TBMs are often not kind...we are

stormy

I think most of you believe that I'm doing this for a mean, self-serving reason. I merely want them to think outside the box for a minute. Actually, I was planning on offering to feed them if they come to realize that they have empty spots on their calendar. I know that they have it hard, especially walking around here all day, when it's freaking HOT outside. I know they have to live on less than $400 a month and they have been separated from everything they love. I'm not a person who lacks compassion. I wasn't planning on using guilt and coercion like they tend to do. I want to present facts and see what they do with it.

Go ahead and meet with them. Be upfront with them about being atheist. I know I am always interesting in further understanding with respect to people believing in religion and like to talk about it with them.

When I was on the mish and in Corinth, MS, there was a very kind minister that we used to meet with weekly just to talk. We would "witness" to each other and just talk about the business we were both in (in retrospect-he being the professional, and my trainer and I, the amateurs). We were convinced he "knew" it was true, but could not get over giving up his sweet gig (salary, house paid for, car paid for, annual 2 week working vacation fully paid for, with every other year to the Holy Land). I now know better. He provided me with a contrasting world view and outlook that was not threatening, and he let "god" take care of the rest.

There is a saying: "when the student is ready, the teacher will appear." In this case, I had the teachings in my pocket, until I was ready to learn from them. Now while, I don't believe in a magical sky daddy, the things I learned from this man helped me to complete the puzzle of my world view when my mormonism shelf broke.

And the compassionate atheist can hold their head up high knowing they helped a couple of stupid mormon kids (like I was) get through a lousy day trying to peddle a broken product.

I'd ask them what the hell is wrong with their parents, paying money to have them imprisoned and forced to live like freaks for two years when they should be experiencing life and figuring out who they are and what they want to be and doing normal 19-year-old dude things.

Ask them why the church voted in General Conference to approve Section 101 of the Book of Commandments as scripture. It's the one where they say the official stand of the church is monogamous marriage.

Then, bingo, Section 101 is gone and Section 132 is the new standard. Multiple wives are the only way to heaven.

OlMan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ask them why the church voted in General
> Conference to approve Section 101 of the Book of
> Commandments as scripture. It's the one where they
> say the official stand of the church is monogamous
> marriage.
>
> Then, bingo, Section 101 is gone and Section 132
> is the new standard. Multiple wives are the only
> way to heaven.
*************
When did this happen? Just curious. I have never heard this one.

Wasn't the Book of Commandments also changed to D&C at some point?

. . . and I would be sickened by anyone that would do something like this to him. There is a grave risk of these boys becoming suicidal because of the EXTREME pressure they are under, their youth, and the complete vulnerability of their situation.

Don't embitter, or even destroy, innocent teenagers in order to get back at a massive, corrupt corporation (it won't work).

This is really upsetting.

The victims of this atrocity and affront against humanity, were children. Their corpses were stripped of all clothing! all their personal effects shared amongst the murderers, the Mormons.

Ask them why a multi million dollar church still needs to spend donation tithe money on a 3 Million Dollar Mega MALL.

Ask them why there is no archeological data that corroborates anything the Mormons have claimed.

Ask them why Islands off the coast of Madagascar, seem to bear the name of Mormon heros, Moroni, Chorroma, and Lehi, and Nephi?

and after reviewing the list of cities in Comoros I haven't found a 'Lehi' or 'Nephi'. However the Vernal Holly map does show a number of locations that correlate with locations in the BOM.

Ask them where in God's plan do people who are born inter-sex (both male and female parts) fit? If the worth of souls is great (BoM) and gender is an extremely important part of our eternal destiny (Family: a proclamation to the world)...you'd think someone could actually answer that question.

Please return and report! :)

And when they find out that you are both atheists, as they will, then you'll just be two more wicked people out to snare two good, faithful Mormons.

Answer this question: Do you two WANT to be the subject of faith promoting stories at firesides for the next umpteen years, being used to control scores of people who might otherwise quit Mormonism?

Because they'll milk your story for all it is worth.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2010 07:09PM by matt.